About points..

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Bigboar
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About points..

Post by Bigboar »

Ok, many agree that points are gone but I think this must be true for the aos set only. When GW give use warscrolls for old armies or characters I think that we must use the old point system with new rules. (.. And the old rules for all the rules untold in the new 4 pages" rulebook").


If not, if there is really no way to balance a game of this new system, then GW is really trolling us, and today is the last time I visit their site.
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Re: About points..

Post by Fr0 »

No points in this version, they may or may not put them in with the next update. Right now, it's up to the players - a great equilibrium. My friends and I will be using wounds to balance out the sides. Beer and pretzels, man.
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Bigboar
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Re: About points..

Post by Bigboar »

Why you didn't use the point system for 8th instead?

It's not a question of friendly game or not, even my 6yo son would complain if I give him 30 warrior of chaos and I take 30 skaven, that's not fun, that's a game unplayable.
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Jvh792
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Re: About points..

Post by Jvh792 »

The 8th ed rules are balanced to work within the 8th ed rules. When a spearman can wound a dragon on a 4+, the points system breaks down pretty fast. Also think that the points value includes ASF, murderous prowess, and whatever other special rules and synergies... The old points system is gone. Plus they don't sell the books anymore. SO. Ya. Gone. Forever.
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Re: About points..

Post by Rork »

Some suggest that you go for armies with an equal number of wounds.

Otherwise...it's the mish-mash you see.
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Bigboar
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Re: About points..

Post by Bigboar »

So skaven slaves and warriors of chaos have same wounds so they are balanced...
Bretonnian Knights for example have all 2 wounds each, why should I take everything but grail Knights?

It's like buying a wonderful Ferrari, without the engine, then you have to build one yourself.

Maybe this is no more a competitive game, it's a cooperative game, where the aim of this game is to try to balance the two armies and go as close as possible for a draw (but most of time you will all lose) ,... what a fun game!
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Re: About points..

Post by Jvh792 »

This actually happened. I woke up today and thought for a moment that it had been a bad dream.
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Re: About points..

Post by Vulcan »

Jvh792 wrote:The 8th ed rules are balanced to work within the 8th ed rules. When a spearman can wound a dragon on a 4+, the points system breaks down pretty fast. Also think that the points value includes ASF, murderous prowess, and whatever other special rules and synergies... The old points system is gone. Plus they don't sell the books anymore. SO. Ya. Gone. Forever.


Ah.... MY books are still intact. So the old rules are NOT gone.

They're not useable for AoS, but they still exist and are perfectly functional for Oldhammer games.

Let me rephrase. Since AoS is an entirely different game, my CURRENT (if unsupported) edition WFB books are still perfectly useful.
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Re: About points..

Post by Fr0 »

Bigboar wrote:Why you didn't use the point system for 8th instead?

It's not a question of friendly game or not, even my 6yo son would complain if I give him 30 warrior of chaos and I take 30 skaven, that's not fun, that's a game unplayable.

It's not really Warhammer so we didn't want to use Warhammer rules. We felt that wounds were a good way to balance it what we bring to the table. I get your comparison, but really that's how things get when you play a very low level game like Border Patrol.

They've given us the the basics, and left it to work it out amongst ourselves. WAACy players/rules lawyers might find themselves short on opponents, and that problem will sort itself out. I think they've had enough of doing erratas and FAQs.

They are taking a hands off approach, in its current iteration it doesn't seem to be intended for any sort of competitive play thus beer and pretzels. Like there aren't as much of rules related to equipment selection, as there are suggestions. "Some Dreadlords enter battle carrying a Exile Blade and a Tyrant Shield, whilst others prefer an Exile Blade in each hand! Some carry a Chillblade". "Models attack with all weapons they have". Just really soft rules, and we're all used to clear written rules. I agree that there some be some things that are a bit more straight forward, but I see it as playing an edition with almost all house rules.

100 is a good wound count, we've found. Works out for my old 2400 lists.
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Re: About points..

Post by Deplayer »

@fr0: in response to using 100 wounds, what would keep me from bringing say 4 of the incarnates, Malekith, Nagash, grim gore, and Karl franz say, and then filling whatever is left with vampire lords or some other such ridiculousness. I'd guess if you don't go with a similar build I would crush your 100 wounds. I get that they were trying to simplify the game, and I don't even mind how the warscrolls really limit how you can build your heroes, but it seems that they should have added a little more structure. Like adding The Lord hero category's and limiting that per army for example.
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Re: About points..

Post by Rork »

More importantly, what if I don't really like pretzels?
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Re: About points..

Post by Kaic »

There is a free Age of Sigmar army builder app coming soon. I don't know if this will fix the points issue or not though.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/warhammer-aos.html
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Re: About points..

Post by Amboadine »

Kaic wrote:There is a free Age of Sigmar army builder app coming soon. I don't know if this will fix the points issue or not though.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/warhammer-aos.html


Not sure if that is an army builder app.
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Re: About points..

Post by Makiwara »

Like everything else, we will have to wait and see.

That being said, I think the notion that AoS was hastily done or is not being heavily invested in to perform in the best manner for the most people is slowly being put to bed.
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Re: About points..

Post by Kaic »

Amboadine wrote:
Kaic wrote:There is a free Age of Sigmar army builder app coming soon. I don't know if this will fix the points issue or not though.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/warhammer-aos.html


Not sure if that is an army builder app.


It is an army builder app. I don't think there is a way to link the E-mail I received from GW about it, but it said "Build an army with the 'My Battle' tool"

EDIT: I found a link that shows the E-mail.

http://us7.campaign-archive2.com/?u=136827b843bb2808e5ae537dd&id=d855e7144c
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Re: About points..

Post by Fr0 »

Whoops, that was supposed to say 2200, (closer to about 2100) not 2500 points - late night, sorry.

Deplayer wrote:@fr0: in response to using 100 wounds, what would keep me from bringing say 4 of the incarnates, Malekith, Nagash, grim gore, and Karl franz say, and then filling whatever is left with vampire lords or some other such ridiculousness.

Nothing stopping you from playing what you like, also nothing forcing your opponent to play against you. :P

Agree there should be a bit more structure, but players will make comps for their playgroups like tournaments have for years. Who knows what next round will bring?

Eager for that new AoS app, that will be cool to have the books and an army builder in one app.
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Re: About points..

Post by Amboadine »

Isn't that just an app that let's you put all your scrolls in one place rather than an army builder as we traditionally know it. I sincerely doubt it has any inbuilt balancing mechanism.
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Re: About points..

Post by Kaic »

It's possible that it is nothing more than all of the warscrolls in one place, but the fact that it specifically mentions a 'My Battle' tool that is used to build armies seems to hint that it is more than that. I'm not getting my hopes up too much for it having points or balancing built in, but without some sort of points built in there wouldn't really be much need for an army builder tool.
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Re: About points..

Post by Amboadine »

Kaic wrote:It's possible that it is nothing more than all of the warscrolls in one place, but the fact that it specifically mentions a 'My Battle' tool that is used to build armies seems to hint that it is more than that. I'm not getting my hopes up too much for it having points or balancing built in, but without some sort of points built in there wouldn't really be much need for an army builder tool.


I would love to be wrong here, but I have a sinking feeling that I am not. They cannot just launch a balancing platform electronically (at least I hope they wouldn't) , I would expect to see a paper version as well if it was really anything more than a scroll database.
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Re: About points..

Post by Diobarach »

I can't imagine why an app would have points but the scrolls would not. It'll be interesting to see how good this app is, I can understand the appeal of bring all my stuff and we can start deploying and counter-deploying. However, I hope the future brings the option of more of a fixed formation/model number/wounds/whatever, maybe this app will include that?
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Re: About points..

Post by Diobarach »

This seems fake but I don't know maybe it's legit:
https://twitter.com/bugeatergames/status/619340998896779264

EDIT: It's fan-made apparently...
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Re: About points..

Post by Sangfroid »

Nice formula but I'd have to ask the question that if this update thing is true why on earth wouldn't they just put the points in the scrolls In the first place rather than make people calculate them, themselves.

Unless GW has secretly been bought out by the "your life" campaign.......
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Re: About points..

Post by Daeron »

It's an interesting concept. It doesn't account for special rules, but it's interesting never the less. It would make our Witch Elves about 6 points. With buffs they ebcome 10-11 points worth, almost the double :P
Spearmen 5 points. Elite infantry of high elves and dark elves would cost about 9 points.
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Re: About points..

Post by Sangfroid »

It also makes a shield dreadlord on a dragon 159.5pts and malekith 149.5pts so fails at this end of things.

A true points system should cover the models offensive capabilities against wounds, bravery, move and save some how. You don't count force multipliers as these are "tactics" I.e taking the right army list for the unit to perform at optimum.

The offensive capability is effectively the chance to hit, plus the chance to wound plus the chance for the wound to stick. There only 5 possible saves in the game (excluding 2+ as this can only be obtained thru magic I.e tactics) 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ and no save.

If you then calculate the chance against each save to cause a wound and multiply that by the models Attacks you have a factor. (You could even somehow work out the proportions of each save across the warscrolls and include that somehow too)

Defensively there is a relationship between wounds & bravery (see daerons post) wounds & save, save & bravery and then movement is a linear constant for every unit I.e more is better, but it sits outside off all the other characteristics in its own.

My old brain is telling me there is a formula here but I can't express it only the method to my madness :-)
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Re: About points..

Post by Barking Agatha »

Sangfroid wrote:A true points system should cover the models offensive capabilities against wounds, bravery, move and save some how.


Warhammer has never had a system like that!
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