Observations: Charging v. Piling In

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Vash1313
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Observations: Charging v. Piling In

Post by Vash1313 »

An observation:
As I’ve played AoS, I’ve noticed that maneuvering for the charge was less important in light of players alternating choosing units to fight and the ability to simply move within three inches and pile in for a sure thing rather than chancing the charge roll. However the more I play, the more I have observed that this was often not a result of the rules as written, but rather a result of my own misapplication of the rules.

The official rules for piling in say that a model may advance three inches toward the nearest enemy model. While this could be interpreted several ways, I think one of the most obvious plain language meanings of the text would be that a model does not have to move directly toward the nearest model but may not move away from the nearest model. While the rule does not mandate a straight line, often times such a move will be required. This means that pile in moves are purposely designed to be very limited, mainly allowing models to move up and engage the enemy to replace casualties or to wrap around the unit to a limited degree. One way that we have been playing is that when a model comes into base to base contact with the closest enemy model, it may move around that model’s base since this does not move it further away from the enemy, but it must remain in base to base contact. (We also use bases for measuring rather than the models).

Charging only has the following limitations: you have to be within twelve inches of the target you want to charge, you have to be more than three inches away from the target unit, the closest model has to end within a half inch of the target, and you can only charge 2d6. Charging is always a gamble; even if your closest model is just over three inches away, double one’s will result in a failed charge and your unit will be too far away to make pile in attacks. Keeping in mind the limitations to pile in moves discussed above, declaring a charge has several key advantages. Charging allows a unit to move 2d6 inches while ignoring the normal restrictions on moving within three inches of the enemy in the movement phase. Charging is not limited to a straight line like pile in moves; during a charge, as long as the closest model ends within a half inch of the enemy unit, the rest of your unit may move the full 2d6 around the unit and then end their move within three inches – this will allow you to surround a unit and then use your pile in move to maximize the number of enemy models you engage.

Like I said, just some observations that I thought I would share for discussion. While I have not read any threads on this, perhaps it is because everyone else got it right the first time. I think it was easy for old Fantasy rules and even some 40K rules to bleed into my understanding of AoS. However, the more I play, the more rules I find that have a very nuanced effect on the game that give it more depth than was obvious at first glance.
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Daeron
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Re: Observations: Charging v. Piling In

Post by Daeron »

The way pile in moves work has indeed spawned a few discussions and probably will so in the future. Indeed, there are subtleties there that are easily missed at first glance!
One of our most recent discussions on it, is here:
http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=165&t=77008

And here's my video on it:


Personally, I don't think sliding along a base is permitted as the pile in move states that it's used to bring a model closer to its nearest enemy model. As sliding along the base doesn't actually bring you closer, it's not allowed. In the video I show that you can still move in weird/similar ways even with that restriction, but then there's also an easy counter. And somehow, that seems to make more sense to me, and balanced too.

As for the charging, there's a great deal of liberty in the movement indeed. First, you declare you're charing but not the target. Just roll the dice and see who and how you can charge. Secondly, only the first model needs to be within 1/2". This allows you to effectively charge to the flank of a unit, even if you were facing the unit's front before.
Another trick to keep in mind: you can put 2 units close to one another so that, if the enemy charges one unit, he also comes within 3" of the second unit. During combat, this permits you to activate the second unit.

But keep an eye out for the range there. I had that stunt pulled on me in my last game: my opponent charged his dragon princes in my dreadlord who was shielding my dark riders. It looked like it would be impossible to avoid a pile in from my dark riders after his pile-in, but as it turned out my opponent succeeded with clever positioning. Using the range of his weapons, he was able to keep himself just at a large enough distance to avoid that. He had to give up attacking with every model, but that was preferable over getting counter attacked.

Another note: you mention that you have to be 3" away from your target to be allowed to charge. As I read it, you have to be 3" away from any enemy model. This is an important difference, as you're not permitted to charge out of combat into another unit, for example.
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Vash1313
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Re: Observations: Charging v. Piling In

Post by Vash1313 »

Good point about any enemy model within three inches preventing the charge. I acknowledge that the language could prevent moving around a base during pile in, but I think it could be read my way as well. I would argue that using the words "move towards" rather than "move directly towards" indicates that a model may move in the way I suggested during pile in. But I do see your point.
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Re: Observations: Charging v. Piling In

Post by Daeron »

It doesn't have to be a straight line, for sure! I too thought you could slide along a base at first so I get the interpretation you're giving it :)
Who convinced me otherwise was MC1Gamer, as a response on this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9zp-jZbl2Y

The rules state:
Step 1: When you pile in, you may move each model in the unit up to 3" towards the closest enemy model. This will allow the models in the unit to get closer to the enemy in order to attack them.


So it has to be "towards" the closest enemy model. Technically, sliding around the base isn't moving towards the closest enemy. The way I'm proposing it is interpreted is that any move is fine, as long as it decreases the distance to the closest enemy model. But that's just one way to play it. I don't think it's particularly game breaking to play it otherwise, so I don't think there's really an issue if it's played differently.
Whichever feels most natural to you and your gaming group is probably fine :)
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Vash1313
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Re: Observations: Charging v. Piling In

Post by Vash1313 »

I agree, whether sliding around is allowed or not, I don't think it will have a substantive impact on the game.
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Re: Observations: Charging v. Piling In

Post by HobbyKiller »

Sliding - which in my opinion is not supported by the rules as you end no closer to the nearest model which you are already in contact with (either base to base or model to model depending on how you have decide to play) has a massive impact on the game if allowed. Basically if it is not allowed then formations become really important as it gives you the opportunity to exploit a badly deployed unit by your opponent to minimise their pile in opportunities.
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Re: Observations: Charging v. Piling In

Post by Calisson »

Note that sliding has a meaning only with square bases.
It will not be understood by the new players with round/oval bases.
So it is up to us, old timers, to rule this issue in an acceptable way to a new, naive "round" player.

Obviously, round bases cannot slide "tangentially", it is always "away" or "closer" save for a single point.
This leaves out two options:
- you can move away as long as the final position is closer than the initial one - possibly adding: and that was the closest practical path
or
- you can never move away, therefore you cannot slide either. You only can move closer at any time of the 3" piling - possibly allowing to move diagonally closer.

As the spirit of AoS is obviously to have fun more than to abide with strict rules, I could well understand that sliding or even moving away should be authorized as long as it is necessary to ultimately get closer.
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Re: Observations: Charging v. Piling In

Post by Diobarach »

I think using base to base appears like a better way to go. If I understand it correctly, you could be in 'base contact' but there be say a .75" gap between the models (via model to model distance). So now you can technically pile-in (even though in base contact) by finding a new position (sliding around?) in which the gap between the models is .67"?
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