Basic tactics with AoS

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Daeron
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Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Daeron »

Loriel from Ulthuan posted a few interesting tactics, for which he granted me permission to repost them here.
Original thread: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=69113

Loriel wrote:After my first UB practice / test game I quickly realized that some of the elements that seem to be taken away actually still are around very much.

For example.

Effective Rank Bonus

K, on the last edition ranks gave static combat resolution and allowed supports attack to be made. They also had steadfast to help them hold their grounds

Well here is example picture (porprotions are not correct etc, but principle can be seeing here)

Image
Image

Image
Image

ok these pictures are not the most perfect ones, but in short having "3 ranks" compared to "1 rank" and get charged in corner means about extra 4-6 attacks. so that would be roughly "the same" as +2 combat resolution in old one. well not exactly, but you get the point. Effective rank bonus.

Effective Flank Charge
Ok as we know in the old one flank charges were really good / bad thing depending were you flanking or not. The basic effects were +1 to combat resolution, denies support attacks and some saves such as parry. Additionally if the flaking had rank also ranking bonuses were denied. Additionally if unit was charged from multiple flank it couldn't reform.

Image
Image

Well lets assume opponent will have straight line formation of troops with maximum of 1 inch apart from each other. (very ideal I know) getting charged from both flanks means. No pileup option for the defender. Also it will seriously cut attacks. You are not allowed to move if you are 3 inch from enemy and you can only pile up, but unit must maintain 1 inch from another model. If we would charge from both ends to "ranked" unit then the most middle ones needs to be left there to connect the two parts of the unit. Thus effectively negate attacks that could follow from pileups. The wider the unit is the topology of maintaining 1 inch between friendly models makes the unit more vulnerable to flank charges.

"Redirecting"

Well redirection in old edition in nutshell means, stall enemy big threats from doing what they are supposed to do. This was achieved by running some mundane troops infront of them, changing their overrun directions, forcing march tests etc.

Well redirecting in this form doesn't exist, but.

Image
Image

Lets take our previous edition redirection masters, Reavers. Now if you clip only one model to the corner of the unit 1/2 inch apart from it then the conga line with exact 1 inch apart. now you cut down many attacks your opponent can do by filling this. Additionally as the reavers can shoot prior to charge they can do significant ammount of damage. and you can remove models as you see fit. so remove from back until one of opponent pile up models is within 1/2 of the second model, then kill the one that is closest to the opponent. Your back reavers will get 3 shots per round to the unit and this unit performance is hindered next to nothing additionally this actually can cause really negative effect on battleshocks for the unit in question. As the rules state that the unit that starts turn within 3 inch from enemy model can either retreat or remain stationary. It is actually little odd that it isn't models. In this situation given that this game has really smooth and dymanic movement why couldn't those dudes that are in the back simple "run" to aid. well not by raw.

------

These were really basic things, hope it helps people to find more tactical elements from the game.



Daeron wrote:While elves aren't exactly the most tanky models, the pile-up can also be used to force a hammer and anvil mechanic:
Image
The pile-up is forced towards the anvil, which keeps the damage on your flanking unit minimal.


Another important choice is selection of the models that are removed from wounds and battle shock. You could, in theory, remove those models that keep you in combat. Like so:
Image
As the range of combat is 3" this might be hard to pull off, but this might save one against a flank charge, maybe.



Daeron wrote:Another idea on the flanking charge. The second flank charge (horses?) doesn't even need to reach combat. The "pile in" rules state that you can move up to 3" to the nearest enemy model... It doesn't state this has to be an enemy you are in combat with (the concept "in combat" doesn't exist).

In theory, you can force a model to pile-in away from combat by placing a flanker closer to an enemy model than the combat (but not within 3"). The controlling player has the liberty to make no pile-in move (or move 0") but the model is locked in position. Enough models have to stay within 1" of each other during the pile-in, forming a line between the locked models and the combat, prohibiting it to fully commit on the combat it is fighting.

This can be saved by a retreat, though. But it kind of restricts the enemy movement.
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Calisson »

Excellent! Simple rules do have some finesse.
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Lord hajjij »

Effective Flank Charge
Ok as we know in the old one flank charges were really good / bad thing depending were you flanking or not. The basic effects were +1 to combat resolution, denies support attacks and some saves such as parry. Additionally if the flaking had rank also ranking bonuses were denied. Additionally if unit was charged from multiple flank it couldn't reform.

Well lets assume opponent will have straight line formation of troops with maximum of 1 inch apart from each other. (very ideal I know) getting charged from both flanks means. No pileup option for the defender. Also it will seriously cut attacks. You are not allowed to move if you are 3 inch from enemy and you can only pile up, but unit must maintain 1 inch from another model. If we would charge from both ends to "ranked" unit then the most middle ones needs to be left there to connect the two parts of the unit. Thus effectively negate attacks that could follow from pileups. The wider the unit is the topology of maintaining 1 inch between friendly models makes the unit more vulnerable to flank charges.


While what you're saying here is true, what's also true here is that you need to attack one unit at a time and the opponent gets to remove dead models as he sees fit.

So, the saavy opponent could remove casualties in a way to actually remove one of your units from combat. (if he's able to remove enough models to leave his unit > 3" away from your unit that hasn't attacked yet - you can't pile in)

It's something to consider when doing a combo charge. In fact, I don't think that I'd ever combo charge like the diagram with 1 wound models. Against Ogres, absolutely. It's something that we/I will have to playtest to see how best to do combo charges.
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by tehnico »

Do this removal from combat trick if it's your opponents turn. Subsequently you can charge back and then reap any charge bonuses.
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Sangfroid »

Okay finally had a game of AoS last night and another thing I noticed from a defensive point of view is that infantry units with a 2inch range (in this case sisters) are excellent defensive units I played with my stuff on movement trays and square bases but kept the sisters just over 2inch away from my warlocks as I advanced almost in a solid line (cold ones on the other side) I lost the initiative turn two so my opponent effectively got to have two turns so he closed and charged his black knights into the warlocks and I was able to pile in with the sisters and get off 21 attacks because of the long range of their weapons.

This was a test game with approx 95 wound armies each that we balanced and contained a variety of unit types to see how they did.

The other thing of note is units of handbow corsairs (you know I love em) staying behind the line and then stepping up in your own phase in range and shooting thru the gaps at engaged units also claimed 3 black nights.

The warlocks doombolt spell means these guys have to be fielded in 10s at least I think and the difference between a Lord on a dragon and a Lord on a horse also makes me feel we need our generals on monsters unless you are going. To avoid combat with them altogether. (The dragon Lord in combat with tyrant shield rerolling failed saves) is pretty solid.
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

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Sangfroid wrote:The warlocks doombolt spell means these guys have to be fielded in 10s at least I think


I had a game last night, using 2 units of 5 Warlocks and I thought "Shoot! Should have merged that!". Thinking back on it, I'm not sure if that really would have been a better idea. True, the 6 mortal wound version is immense. But you're losing 3 spells for it. Purely from a magic point of view, it's possible to cast every spell the unit knows (no powerdice limit). By splitting the unit up, you gain 3 spells (Doombolt, Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield).
From a damage point of view, 2 Doombolts and 1 Arcane Bolts have to compete with the 6 Mortal Wound Doombolt.

Assuming all spells are cast, the mortal wounds hitting the enemy are:
Image
Which beats the 6 Mortal Wound doombolt. It's not entirely the same, of course, but then consider taking a few wounds on the unit. The big unit will go down quickly in performance. The small units will do less. The small unit also gets a mystic shield to boot.
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Sangfroid »

That makes a lot of sense but the 5 man units very quickly drop in performance (2w and then they are firing d3 bolts which is worse than arcane bolt obtained from a different caster as that caster has 3 different spells) then I wondered are we thinking in 5s because of 8th would it possible to track the efficency of 7 or 8 man units i.e a sweet spot, as I suspect a lot of comps will use some kind of wounds/bravery formula so finding out at what point you get optimum models for performance would be awesome.

also I've been thinking today at work and I'm wondering if 2 inch attack infantry units (black guard, dreadspears and sisters) are actually more effective in a tight square based formation. If you are holding a 1 inch apart formation you are increasing your frontage so the enemy can get more models in b2b or within an inch but the 1inch spaces don't really help you that much because your second rank fights just as well over the shoulder in a tight formation.

Whereas if your tucked in tight the enemy has to spread out and pile in all around you to get the Most out of their attacks. This not only gives you more attacks per inch (if you have more than 2 ranks) but also disperses their formation and blocks off other units engaging with you as easily. In fact would the optimal formation with these guys be a square 16/25/36 models etc....

1) if you charge and get to pile in first you bring models from the back to extend your front rank two models deep at least
2) if you are charged and get piled in on every enemy that is coming around your formation after the first is actually giving you 2 models worth of attacks back.

Thoughts?

EDIT: in fact attacks per inch would be a good measure of a units effectiveness then use their hit/wound/rend to come out without formula that gauges offensive capacity
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Daeron »

Sangfroid wrote:That makes a lot of sense but the 5 man units very quickly drop in performance (2w and then they are firing d3 bolts which is worse than arcane bolt obtained from a different caster as that caster has 3 different spells) then I wondered are we thinking in 5s because of 8th would it possible to track the efficency of 7 or 8 man units i.e a sweet spot, as I suspect a lot of comps will use some kind of wounds/bravery formula so finding out at what point you get optimum models for performance would be awesome.


1 unit of 10 -> 6+ 1D3 Mortal Wounds (1 Doombolt + 1 Bolt)
2 units of 5 -> 2D6 + 2D3 Mortal Wounds

After 2 wounds:
1 unit of 9 -> 1D6 + 1D3 Mortal wounds
1 unit of 5, 1 of 4 -> 1D6 + 3D3 Mortal Wounds

After 4 wounds:
1 unit of 8 -> 1D6 + 1D3 Mortal wounds
2 units of 4 -> 4D3 Mortal wounds

Two units always win.

also I've been thinking today at work and I'm wondering if 2 inch attack infantry units (black guard, dreadspears and sisters) are actually more effective in a tight square based formation. If you are holding a 1 inch apart formation you are increasing your frontage so the enemy can get more models in b2b or within an inch but the 1inch spaces don't really help you that much because your second rank fights just as well over the shoulder in a tight formation.


The 1" space is entirely optional. 1" is just enough to fight in 2 ranks so a tight formation already pays of with 1" melee weapons. This was a nasty surprise to my Duardin opponent yesterday as my Witch Elves launched their 3 attacks per model from 2 ranks. Yeah.. he wasn't too happy with that.
The 2" range should permit up to 3 ranks of 20mm square bases.

Whereas if your tucked in tight the enemy has to spread out and pile in all around you to get the Most out of their attacks. This not only gives you more attacks per inch (if you have more than 2 ranks) but also disperses their formation and blocks off other units engaging with you as easily. In fact would the optimal formation with these guys be a square 16/25/36 models etc....


I also formed my units in a square to be equally effective on all sides. It works as you said, but I didn't get flanked. I only broke formation when I needed the extra flexibility to get more attacks in.
I think examining formations is a very, very interesting topic. BTW, I keep my models on a movement tray in tight formation. I just slide the tray in whatever direction I want, no wheeling, no turning. This way, all my models make the exact same move. It's 360 degree sight anyway, turning is not required.


EDIT: in fact attacks per inch would be a good measure of a units effectiveness then use their hit/wound/rend to come out without formula that gauges offensive capacity


Interesting concept. Hm. I'm always a little weary of such units as they can be very situational and one unit may have an easier time pulling it off than the other. But it is worth checking out.
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Sangfroid »

Ahh I see the issue here each unit of warlocks can only cast 1 spell per hero phase so two units can do 2 spell 1 unit 1 spell

the warscroll for locks says they can only cast once which is a pain, in fact only malekith and Morathi in our army can cast two and so far I've only seen teclis, a slann and a high elf Mage with book of hoeth that can cast 3 times

I also agree the fuss about us losing tight formations is drivel having your guys nice and close is stronger,

How do you think a cav unit can be formed optimally?
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Daeron »

Ahhh! Gee.. my mistake. I may owe my opponent an apology :P
We went through the rules throughout the game and the magic of the main rules state each spell can be cast once. Now the scroll specific rules state how many spells can be cast. It makes more sense now :)

Let's see the impact:

1 unit of 10 -> 6+ Mortal Wounds
2 units of 5 -> 2D6 Mortal Wounds
After 2 wounds:
1 unit of 9 -> 1D6 Mortal wounds
1 unit of 5, 1 of 4 -> 1D6 + 1D3 Mortal Wounds
After 4 wounds:
1 unit of 8 -> 1D6 Mortal wounds
2 units of 4 -> 2D3 Mortal wounds

I'm still tempted to go two units :P

Close formations are better but some weapons work with a range, i.e. a gyrocopter's steam gun hits everyone within 6" inches. That said, if they move close enough, you can charge it next round.

For cavalry you can go quite gamey. Front-to-front, there's no benefit to either formation and a straight up formation is just as good as any. However, edge to edge (imagine a 7-wide unit fighting a 5-wide unit, the 2 outer models) can use something else. 1" distance might just be enough to cross the cav base sideways to let a model behind it strike. If every letter represents 25x25mm and it takes two letters to make a cav base then this formation would give the max amount of attacks on a 5-wide unit after pile-in:
AACDEFGHH
BBCDEFG I I
Putting the horses sideways on the edges might let one more horse fight on either edge, or in the case of warlocks, an extra model.

I would expect some grumbling from my opponent though :D
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Re: Basic tactics with AoS

Post by Sangfroid »

Love that cav idea will try something similar next time I get chance, interestingly the Coldone Knights themselves have a 2 inch range I think that oval bases will allow a further option as you can angle them ever so slightly allowing the tip of the second rank to squeeze in a bit allowing then a full rank of extra knight attacks maybe on the charge.

What's funny is peeps are complaining about the loss of movement phase and positioning yet it's still there just in a different way!

Don't worry about the casting mishap, it's how I read it originally myself then.when I actually went to cast a spell and read the warscroll realised in time. In fact this alone makes two units of 5 optimally as it also means 2 unbind attempts too!

The magic defence and offence is also another topic worth exploring, our wizards are not that strong really as we can only cast a single spell and dispel once per turn (excluding Morathi & malekith) so we need a mixture of multiple casters and or warlocks to cover ours lines. Because our heros can no longer join units I'm wondering if it's worth having a exposed caster at all even if she is On a cold one (and I don't think it's worth a dragonmage when you compare how tough the dreadlord is with tyrant shield) a good round of shooting or warmachines or magic can have her dead easily enough.

So maybe 2 units of 5 locks gives us a good offence reasonable defence (two dispel attempts) and then also a fair amount of survivalbility with 20 wounds and speed.
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