Best Dark Elves Units in AoS

[Draecarion]

@Daeron
Thank you for the analysis. Always good to see the actual math :-)
I edited the to-hit chance to 4+ soon after my post, but you were faster.

@Calisson
I think I will get Sylvaneth assistance in the near future. Always had a soft spot for Treemen and Dryads. Besides, their new rules (if they stay that way) make them pretty strong. Dryads are quite powerful now. And Treemen are insane.

[Icon hack]

And with each model getting 4 attacks (leader gets 5), they aren't too bad in HtH either. The chance to dispel enemy spells is also nice. 6 Mortal Wounds with a unit size of 10+ is great, though I'm sure there are some people here who will try to argue that the unit size refers to the target unit and not the size of the Warlock unit.

From the Warscroll:
"The Doomfire Warlocks hurl bolts of blazing black flame at their foes. Doombolt has a casting value of 5. If successfully cast, pick a visible unit within 18". The target unit suffers D3 mortal wounds if the casting unit has less than 5 models, D6 mortal wounds if it has 5 to 9 models, or 6 mortal wounds if it has 10 or more models."

I think that's pretty clear

I think it's pretty clear, too. Check around the AoS forum, though.

I'm especially worried about the shooting of warmachines. The new version of the Dwarf cannon is absolutely devastating against, well, pretty much everything. Especially units with 10+ models. If only 2 of those are allowed to shoot into combat they can cause horrendous damage (on average 8-9 wounds against units with less than 10 models and even more against units with 10+ models, because the Dwarf player can reroll how much damage the cannonballs cause ... 2 attacks with D6 damage, hit on 4+ with reroll, wound on 2+ ).

You may be right, the one game I've played I had 2 RBT's, 2 units of DR's and the Hydra. Chaos had a unit of trolls and that was all the units with missile fire. What I found was that the RBT's had plenty of other targets though, and they had enemies bearing down on them and were in HtH themselves very quickly.

Canons are to be feared but they have a 32 inch range only now and also our dark riders just a unit of 5 have a good chance to kill one or two crew in just one round of shooting so we have the tools to deal with them yes they can be tough but it's no different to having to suffer a round or at worst two of shooting before we got in and killed all the warmachines like in 8th :-)

Exactly. In addition to the 15 shots, the DR's might even be able to charge them on the first turn with some luck. Models set up at least 24" apart, but DR's move 14" and charge 2d6" (and can reroll one of the dice if they have a hornblower).

[Lord hajjij]

Ontopic:

I personally feel executioners are our best unit; they are so devastating in combat that it makes up for their non shooting, foot slogging ways.

On the topic of shooting:

Shooting is amazing. Probably just a bit too good. However, when it comes to warmachines - they seem great, but in practice, they aren't THAT awesome. There are a number of countermeasures that can really bone warmachines.

1. Return shooting. As mentioned, a unit of Dark Riders has insane range to move and shoot, 3x shots each. We believe the rules allow for you to shoot at the crew specifically, albeit with the penalty of the crew getting a cover save. Even causing one casualty will really hurt the machine's output.

2. Summoning. Many armies have this and all of a sudden you can get a unit 9" away from your machine. Combo this with #1 if you want to summon a unit who can shoot, since the unit is summoned in the hero phase which is before the shooting.

3. Random turn sequence. Really painful if you lose these roll-offs since the opponent can act twice before you can shoot again.

Additionally, We've house ruled a few things, namely:

-If a unit is within 3" of an enemy, it can only shoot at enemies within 3".
-You get the cover save if there is a terrain feature completely between the shooter and the target. (you don't have to be WITHIN the terrain, but being completely behind it also gives the cover save)

This is why AoS is an amazing game, it opens the door for reasonable rule changes like this within your gaming group.

Conclusion: Shooting is really good right now because too many people are using their 8th edition close combat oriented armies and philosophies and don't posses effective countermeasures to beat strong shooting. You can no longer just run forward and shrug off shooting with high T or armor save, get stuck in combat and just ignore it. People need to get and use units that help provide relief from shooting.

[Killerk]

I'd go for shades, they have protection from OP shooting, and they offer a lot of shots... that are OP. and they are average in CC. Plus that scout rule, its not as good as before since movement counts for nothing now, and deploying close to your opponent will just get you charged. but still its there.

[Barking Agatha]

Ontopic:

I personally feel executioners are our best unit; they are so devastating in combat that it makes up for their non shooting, foot slogging ways.

On the topic of shooting:

Shooting is amazing. Probably just a bit too good. However, when it comes to warmachines - they seem great, but in practice, they aren't THAT awesome. There are a number of countermeasures that can really bone warmachines.

1. Return shooting. As mentioned, a unit of Dark Riders has insane range to move and shoot, 3x shots each. We believe the rules allow for you to shoot at the crew specifically, albeit with the penalty of the crew getting a cover save. Even causing one casualty will really hurt the machine's output.

We haven't been playing it that way. If I understand correctly, the owning player chooses how to assign the wounds. Then again, once they start assigning wounds to the war machine they can't assign any to the crew until the war machine is dead.

2. Summoning. Many armies have this and all of a sudden you can get a unit 9" away from your machine. Combo this with #1 if you want to summon a unit who can shoot, since the unit is summoned in the hero phase which is before the shooting.

Unfortunately we don't have this, unless you can get a sorceress or warlocks near some Arcane Ruins and raise some ghosts. We do have Shades, though, and they get some protection in cover even against war machines that do mortal wounds. I've found that 5 isn't enough. Maybe 10? Also dark riders, as you say. Harpies, maybe, although even with a move of 16" they might have trouble reaching the war machine before getting shot. Harpies can move 16" and charge maybe 7" or 8", threatening anything within 24" or so... but many war machines will be further away than that. Dark Riders can move 14" and shoot 16" away, threatening anything within 30", which is more like it. Shades can just set up wherever and shoot 16" away. The problem of course is that they'll be exposed to whatever attacks them back, but at worst they'll buy you some time!

3. Random turn sequence. Really painful if you lose these roll-offs since the opponent can act twice before you can shoot again.

Nah, it will always be the other way around!

Additionally, We've house ruled a few things, namely:

-If a unit is within 3" of an enemy, it can only shoot at enemies within 3".
-You get the cover save if there is a terrain feature completely between the shooter and the target. (you don't have to be WITHIN the terrain, but being completely behind it also gives the cover save)

Sounds sensible!

[Lord hajjij]

We haven't been playing it that way. If I understand correctly, the owning player chooses how to assign the wounds. Then again, once they start assigning wounds to the war machine they can't assign any to the crew until the war machine is dead.

I guess this does make sense after reading through the war scroll again. We treated the crew and machine as 2 different units, but looks like that's incorrect as it actually states they are the same unit. Will bring this up with the group.

Unfortunately we don't have this, unless you can get a sorceress or warlocks near some Arcane Ruins and raise some ghosts. We do have Shades, though, and they get some protection in cover even against war machines that do mortal wounds. I've found that 5 isn't enough. Maybe 10? Also dark riders, as you say. Harpies, maybe, although even with a move of 16" they might have trouble reaching the war machine before getting shot. Harpies can move 16" and charge maybe 7" or 8", threatening anything within 24" or so... but many war machines will be further away than that. Dark Riders can move 14" and shoot 16" away, threatening anything within 30", which is more like it. Shades can just set up wherever and shoot 16" away. The problem of course is that they'll be exposed to whatever attacks them back, but at worst they'll buy you some time!

Sorry, I was unclear - but I meant this more in a "typical counter to shooting" in the game, not for Exiles specifically. See my earlier thread on how we got the shot end of the stick in a lot of stuff in this game.

Doesn't make the game any less fun for me for now.

[Icon hack]

On the topic of shooting:

Shooting is amazing. Probably just a bit too good...

It's definitely better, but I don't know if I'd go so far as to describe it as amazing. It gained a lot, but lost a few things too, like being able to shoot at chargers and the ability to flee from charges to stay out of CC. I just think that a unit's overall effectiveness takes the new shooting rules into account. Also, a big part of the change in shooting's effectiveness is that AoS did away with pretty much all the 2+ saves and there are very few models that even get 3+. No more using S3 bolts to shoot T4 Chaos Knights with 2+ saves. But that also means no more S3 spears against T4 Chaos Knights with 2+ saves, too. In other words, I just think most things are easier to kill across the board. In The game I played I had a unit of 18 Witch Elves chew through a unit of 20 Chaos Warriors in two turns (I rolled a little bit better than average, but not that much). I've never played 8th ed., but I never would have done that in 5th, 6th or 7th edition.

2. Summoning. Many armies have this and all of a sudden you can get a unit 9" away from your machine. Combo this with #1 if you want to summon a unit who can shoot, since the unit is summoned in the hero phase which is before the shooting.

Yep, and Chaos can get the "Unending Legion" command ability that allows them to bring any Slave of Darkness unit onto any table edge, with no restrictions on proximity to enemy models. In the game I played, Chaos had a unit of Warriors on top of one of my Bolt Throwers on turn 1.

3. Random turn sequence. Really painful if you lose these roll-offs since the opponent can act twice before you can shoot again.

This is a good point, I hadn't thought of this in terms of dealing with shooters.

Conclusion: Shooting is really good right now because too many people are using their 8th edition close combat oriented armies and philosophies and don't posses effective countermeasures to beat strong shooting. You can no longer just run forward and shrug off shooting with high T or armor save, get stuck in combat and just ignore it. People need to get and use units that help provide relief from shooting.

Another good perspective on the subject.

I am also starting to think that shooting just isn't quite so good in the big picture as some people are conjecturing. I think once people play a few games (and like you said, learn how to adapt to the new rules of engagement), they'll start to see that it's not so difficult to deal with and doesn't give an army an unfair advantage. I think an all-shooty army may end up doing pretty poorly in practice, actually. Right now, I think that a lot of players are being forced out of their comfort zone, and so they're panicking and grasping at everything they can find in the rules that's forcing them to think outside the box and screaming that it's "broken". I have a feeling that most people will come around once they've really played a few games.

[Lord hajjij]

On the topic of shooting:

Shooting is amazing. Probably just a bit too good...

It's definitely better, but I don't know if I'd go so far as to describe it as amazing. It gained a lot, but lost a few things too, like being able to shoot at chargers and the ability to flee from charges to stay out of CC.

I think you're being a bit too nice re: stand and shoot It honestly wasn't that great except in just a few circumstances. Huge net positive for shooting to get shoot into combat vs. losing stand and shoot.

Also, you CAN retreat from combat if you wanted to. You can also freely move backwards as a unit approaches, rather than shuffling a unit back 1/2 speed like in 8th. I'd say it's about a wash. Not having a flee reaction to a charge does kinda suck.

I just think that a unit's overall effectiveness takes the new shooting rules into account. Also, a big part of the change in shooting's effectiveness is that AoS did away with pretty much all the 2+ saves and there are very few models that even get 3+. No more using S3 bolts to shoot T4 Chaos Knights with 2+ saves.

You pretty much hit the nail right on the head here for me. No more wounding things on 6s, no more 1+ re-rollable armor saves.

A couple other things about shooting that you didn't mention that really makes it shine:

1. Many units, mainly monsters, lose some effectiveness as they take wounds, so it's worth shooting at them to weaken them. Also, things like our Warlocks are similar. If someone was up against 10 warlocks in a unit, it's worth it to shoot one warlock away to lose the 6 auto wounds of Doombolt.

2. Shooting adds to the overall Battleshock test score.

So, I do think that shooting is amazing, but not ABOVE the other amazing things in AoS. There are plenty of amazing things and shooting is one of them.

[Barking Agatha]

See my earlier thread on how we got the shot end of the stick in a lot of stuff in this game.

Eh, c'est la vie. We're still pretty good. If you want to see an army that really did get the short end of the stick, try playing dark elves... in space! I've just about given up on 40K now. (I still paint and collect the models, but trying to match the recent stuff with dark eldar... it's just ridiculous). It's worth noting that Age of Sigmar is meant to be a living story. I've heard that the next installment is going to be about the Sylvaneth retaking the realm of Nature. That will bring new, updated warscrolls for them, as well as new units, formations, etc. What we have right now is probably more like 'placeholder' rules until our own campaign comes up. If duardin (dwarfs ) can ride on lava beasts, what will they have for us? I dunno, but it will be different!

My one worry is whether the new models will be aesthetically compatible with the current ones. I'm afraid probably not. The current ones are already out of synch with the old ones (compare an old witch elf with a new one!) and they'll probably want to get away from the 'generic' elf look and come up with a unique (i.e., patentable) one. Which is not a bad thing, but it will leave my older models looking awkward. Again, c'est la vie.

[Cailil]

what will they have for us? [...] My one worry is whether the new models will be aesthetically compatible with the current ones. I'm afraid probably not.

Yeah I'm guessing that too. But my prediction is that any models will be for new armies per se and neither compatible with the former Elf races aesthetically or from a gameplay perspective (i.e I don't expect new Wanderer, Exile or Highborn rules, just new Aelf rules). But we will always (I hope) have the Exiles, Wanderer and Highborn backward-compatible rules for our old armies.

I have zero evidence for this of course ... except experience with GW. I'd love to be wrong here though.

See my earlier thread on how we got the shot end of the stick in a lot of stuff in this game.

Eh, c'est la vie. We're still pretty good. If you want to see an army that really did get the short end of the stick, try playing dark elves... in space!

I've long been of the opinion that D.Eldar are only good for conversion bits for Druchii. The Lhamaean and Lelith especially.

[Calisson]

Fluff seems to indicate Highborn to live mostly in Azyr, being the most loyal aelves,
Exiles to live in dark place and raid, very much Dark Eldar style,
and Wanderers to be still tree-huggers, with style to be compared to Harlequins.
There might be future rules affecting aelves, such as a hypothetical Slannesh's vengeance, but not as significant as the three, preserved factions.

For Exiles, in particular, there are WE-looking designs to be seen in some AoS pics. They might change the names, but for certain there will keep selling naked frenzied female aelfes.

[Cailil]

For Exiles, in particular, there are WE-looking designs to be seen in some AoS pics.

I missed this - sounds good and if so ... brilliant! But the only Aelf images I've seen are the current Dark Elf range on round bases and I have no idea if they GW images or player images

[General Kael]

Sister of slaughter seem pretty nasty with their ability to reflect deflect damage. If you make a save of six you can inflict one mortal wound on your enemy on a 4+, which is pretty good because having to hit wound and bypass saves is hard! But add in a +2 to your save roll from the dance of death ability and its a 4+, with mystic shield your now at 3+.
And with a 2" range and 2 attacks they could be a very nasty unit, that the enemy doesn't want to charge.

[Daeron]

! But the only Aelf images I've seen are the current Dark Elf range on round bases and I have no idea if they GW images or player images

Gw has images of dark elves on small round bases in some of the books, the White Dwarf I think but I'm not sure.
It looks good for wilder models, like Corsairs. I'm not sure I like it equally on dreadspears. It should look great for a cauldron of blood though. I never quite liked the size of the COB out of the box on a square base but with an oval base in AoS it might fit better 'as is'.

[Cailil]

Gw has images of dark elves on small round bases in some of the books, the White Dwarf I think but I'm not sure.
It looks good for wilder models, like Corsairs. I'm not sure I like it equally on dreadspears.

Yeah absolutely - I started to assemble a new unit of WEs on round bases yesterday and they look okay (the hornblower looks weirdly awkward but the rest are fine) and re-base some shades and Corsairs they do indeed look great. Like you said dreadspears and the more static looking sculpts (the new Execs, BG, Soearmen etc and the old WEs Spearmen and Executions) just don't look right so I'll be leaving them on their current square bases. The old metal BG might be okay though and if not I've always been tempted to convert Dark Eldar Incubi to BG or Execs round bases makes this easier (I tried previously and 3 out 5 just wouldn't fit on a 20mm square base).

[HobbyKiller]

I posted my thoughts on what the top 5 Dark Elf Warscrolls under AOS are on my blog - here - https://hobbykiller.wordpress.com/

[Calisson]

I posted my thoughts on what the top 5 Dark Elf Warscrolls under AOS are on my blog - here - https://hobbykiller.wordpress.com/

Interesting blog.
Looking forwards to see more.

[HobbyKiller]

Thanks - blog is updated on a daily basis so keep checking back for updates

[Amboadine]

Thanks - blog is updated on a daily basis so keep checking back for updates

Thanks for sharing the link, some interesting thoughts there on a few subjects.

[Vulcrist]

This is an interesting thread because I am assembling Executioners/Black Guard but haven't decided which way to go with them. I'm interested in a specific comparison between the two so I can make up my mind and get on with painting them.

[Daeron]

Executioners are slightly better, but black guard can be a bit more technical thanks to their range and rend. For example, I can see myself field a unit of 9 black guard in 3x3 formation. They are quite deadly and maximize their attacks in all directions.
Admitted, Executioners are more deadly in theory, but I suspect a bit more dicey. You would also have to make more work of the pile-in move.

I'll see if I can give a breakdown of their combat potential tomorrow.

[Vulcrist]

Thank you.

Also take into consideration I don't have or will (ever) use Malekith, but if I did, I would choose the Black Guard over the Execs every time.

[Duffman327]

I have used Black Guard a ton as i have a good 40 models. i use them in units of 12 to 15 and i have found them to be quite devastating as they have 2 attacks with a range of 2" and hit and wound on 3's with rend.... Bloody hell. a lot of my opponents try to stay clear of them as the potential damage that can come out of them is mind blowing.

I have used Dreadspears as well, but they are pretty basic. I havent used any other melee unit in combat so i couldnt see what would be better. but black guard are awesome. and these rules allow me to field as many as i want!!!

Its a bummer that you can't have Malekith on Foot though (i've been making a nice conversion)

[Vulcrist]

Well it is a choice not to have Malekith, on foot or otherwise. I'm not spending but a tiny bit on AoS and just using what I find in my bitz boxes. Until some of the new stuff comes out for the other factions (aelfs, duardin, orruks, etc). So for now, I'll stick with what I have. And I'm still fairly undecided about BG/Execs.

To me, the BG look better. They have a better reach, and Rend -1. Plus, they reroll attack rolls of 1. All the Execs have is their Severing Strike, which is really good, but I'm not sure if it's better than rend -1, 2" and Eternal Hatred.

I guess I could make up 5 as BG and 5 as Execs, but that's too low of a number for each unit in my opinion.

[Vulcrist]

Any new info?

I went ahead and made them up as Executioners, though I do like the BG better (they have a bit better synergy with other models, and just look cooler). I'll just have to track down another affordable box of BG and build them up--might as well use one of each instead of deciding between the two.