army sizes - selecting an army

[Falstaff]

Hi there,

I'm getting into AoS after I had to take off several months of WHF due to baby-break.

Immediatelly, I realized that there were no rules on how to pick an army and how army sizes are agreed upon. In this forum, I stumbled over the approach of counting wounds. I'm not sure that this will be viable for tournament play (clog field with dreadlords and sorceresses on dragons?)

So here's the approach of my local gaming store for our first tournament in August.

Each player selects 7 battlescrolls. For each game, the opponent may deny 2 battlescrolls from being used.
Max 3 warmachines
Max 2 monsters
Each battlescroll max 1
Minimum of 2 and maximum of 3 heroes (the opponent cannot deny all of your heroes but must leave you at least one)

Maximum unit size:
Formula: (wounds + attacks) * Bravery = cost/model. --> Each scroll is limited to 300 points.
If the warscroll is a heroe, he may cost 150 max (thus excluding some of the most powerful heroes).

What do you tink about this rather complicated approach? I think it has some potential and will certainly be tweaked after having been testet.

[Falstaff]

I just realized that there is already a place for this. I apologize. Close plz.

Moderator's reply.
The other thread you had spotted was more about points for units.
In addition, it has been hijacked by nay-sayers.
I'd rather let this thread live on, with discussions about comp system.
Calisson.

[Elrithral]

I quite like this one, but there are a couple of issues with the "Formula: (wounds + attacks) * Bravery = cost/model. --> Each scroll is limited to 300 points."

What if the unit has D6 attacks, like Beasts of Nurgle?

High bravery can have a drastic impact on this. Stormvermin are (1 + 2) * 5 = 15 per model. Skeleton Warriors are (1 + 1) * 10 = 20 per model.

If Skeleton Warriors are 20 each then you can only ever take 15 if limited 300, at which size there's little to no point in them as you can never ever avail of any of the "numbers in units" buffs.

Also; what if the unit's attacks are buffed by numbers? E.g. 30 Skeleton Warriors get 3 attacks each, so do they now become (1 + 3) * 10 = 40 per model?

[Daeron]

A flat-out point system might just work, but it's quite complex to make. It would need a lot of community support and testing to work. A formula might give a good start, but it doesn't seem to account for "everything".
Imagine a hero to have a command ability that's very powerful, then it needs an additional cost.
I'm also thinking of the 4+ ward from the phoenix guard, and the re-rollable save from the dreadlord.

Perhaps one solution is to work with the average save percentage vs shooting and melee?
That way, a 4+ re-rollable save will weigh in more than a 3+ save. Perhaps it deserves a compensation when it's granted through a special rule (like it only counts for half, or something?) because a 4+ re-rollable is easier to combat with rend than a 3+.

However, if it only serves to limit the number of models in a scroll, it needn't be as precise.

That said, for easy comp systems, I think that AoS offers the option to balance things out through content creation instead of limitation. I doubt it's an easy fix, but it could work. The blue print I'm pointing at is the Organisation Warscrolls (or however they are called), which groups up a collection of units. The starter box seems to include 2 fairly balanced scrolls of this kind. Our own scroll compendium offers 2. Perhaps making 1 such scroll a base requirement for fielding an army would solve a lot of issues.

It would need the creation of more scrolls for different types of armies that make sense for each faction, but it should offer a great start. A player can then extend such a scroll with a limited number of units.

[Elrithral]

You'd almost need to have tiers of points because of the buffs, Skellies with 3 attacks should be more expensive than Skellies with 1 attack (double points cost if taking a horde?), and that would be a painstaking job for the community, no matter how many are involved.

[Calisson]

I think that AoS offers the option to balance things out through content creation instead of limitation. I doubt it's an easy fix, but it could work. The blue print I'm pointing at is the Organisation Warscrolls (or however they are called), which groups up a collection of units. The starter box seems to include 2 fairly balanced scrolls of this kind. Our own scroll compendium offers 2. Perhaps making 1 such scroll a base requirement for fielding an army would solve a lot of issues.

It would need the creation of more scrolls for different types of armies that make sense for each faction, but it should offer a great start. A player can then extend such a scroll with a limited number of units.

Do you think the combined warscrolls are supposed to be balanced?:

A Dispossessed Artillery Battery consists of the following units:
• 1 Dwarf Engineer
• Any 3 models chosen from the following:
- Dwarf Bolt Thrower
- Dwarf Cannon
- Flame Cannon
- Grudge Thrower
- Organ Gun

A Brotherhood of Knights has the following units:
• 4 units of Empire Knights or Demigryph Knights, in any combination
- A unit of Demigryph Knights has 3 or more models.
- A unit of Empire Knights has 5 or more models.

I see not how a sufficient number of Empire knights could'nt easily and quickly destroy three cannons. Even with sudden death scenario.

[Daeron]

Do you think the combined warscrolls are supposed to be balanced?

No. Certainly not those of the old armies. Of the new armies, that remains to be seen. IE: the two given in the AoS starter kit seem somewhat balanced, but I haven't played them yet.

However, it could be possible to create such a scroll or two for each army and make it mandatory to pick one. Much like core units were required in previous editions of WFB, so can a scroll be made the minimum requirement of a new list. The rest can be filled in at liberty or depending on however they want to comp it.

For example, let's say we take a Klar Karond battlescroll army:
- 2-4 of Hydra, Kharibdis in any combination
- 2 units of Dreadspears
- 2 units of Scourgerunner chariots
- 1 Beastmaster on Manticore
Can be expanded with:
- Any number of units of Darkshards, Bleakswords, Dreadspears
- Up to two units of Cold One Knights
- ...

Instead of tweaking a general system that "magically" fits every unit imaginable in the game, perhaps we should just work with some premade unit selections. Tweak those that exist to perfection, then make a new one. Depending on the composition, one unit may be treated as more valuable as the other.

It's both more complex and less so. You trade a system of maths by a system built on experience.