AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

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Killerk
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Killerk »

See Calisson you fall in to the trap of previous edition, you no longer have to choose. You can have 100 shades and 100 BG. Just for the purpose of winning make sure that 100 shades can take off your opponent in turn one.

Like in my main post, take big and small units, big units to pound opponent, small to get in the way. This way your shot will easily reach the opponent, while the opponent will not reach you.

Also shades can move back at full speed and still shoot just the same. And did you factor in that shades can shoot you while in combat?
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Calisson »

Killerk, I'm sorry that my long post may have been confusing and you did not get my point.

Note that if there is room only for 100 models on the table, you do have to chose. If there is room for 200 models, then just take my demonstration with twice as many models, conclusions will remain the same.

Main point: Contrary to your belief, 100 shades will NOT take off your opponent in turn 1. That's an urban legend, that mathammer proves to be false.
In the future, if you wish to continue to claim that shooters have an automatic upper hand, please take the time to try to demonstrate it.

Now about your objections:
A small unit can take the charge, indeed. Assuming we are still filling all available space with models, instead of opposing 100 shades to 100 BG, you oppose a screen of 20 shades and 80 shades to 20 BG and 80 BG (allow me to use similar tactics).
The BG strategy will be to charge with both. The aim is to open a gap with the 20 BG in the 20 shades, so that when the 80 BG pile up, they can get closer to the 80 shades. Of course, the shades want to avoid that. So they need to position their large unit front row more than 3" behind the front row of the smaller unit. Problem is that to achieve that, you need to leave a gap, i.e. not to fill the table with models. Now you start the game with 20 models less than the opponent, who has no problem filling the table.
Even with your screen, you still did not demonstrate the superiority of shooters.

About shades able to move back, well you cannot do that if the table is filled with nmodels. If you kept some space behind, then you are in numeric inferiority to the opponent who fills the table and you will lose the grinding war.
Furthermore, the rule says "If a unit retreats, then it can’t shoot".
I demonstrated that if the shades shoot, even at maximum distance (i.e. some models will be out of range), their chances are roughly 50% against BG and virtually hopeless against COK.
If they move further away, there is no shooting nor melee, stalemate, until they hit the table's edge. Then see my demonstration.


Conclusion:
the belief that shooting is too powerful is just demonstrated by mathammer to be false.

Try to explain how you can win with shooters if your opponent fills completely his half table with COK?
(there wil be one general behind them, and no possible LOS because of too many COK in the way).
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Killerk »

I never said they would take off opponent turn one. I said have enough shooting to take opponent off turn one. But I should have said have enough shooting to secure a victory turn one.

Well the thing is, when you have a n overwhelming amount of models on the table, your combat troops should not be waiting for your shooting to do the work. Remember new edition, a gun lines no longer have the weakness of lack of combat troops. you can have your gun line that is twice the strength of you opponent, and a combat detachment that is also twice strength of your opponent, so your army is quadrille the strength of your opponent, on AoS this is a fair game.

If my table side is filled with models I'm not going to wait until my opponent charges me, I will move everything and just dice him off. No plan no tactic just move, shoot, charge. Rolling those 4+ until my opponent has mo models left. In 8th the armies were more or less equal. Here you can have a 2k army facing a 14-20k point army. And AoS says its a fair game. This is what PtW is all about.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Calisson »

I still don't see your point.

You claimed several times that shooting was OP.
This is what I investigated, to find out that it was not.

I do not contest the rest of your argument, i.e. take elite troops and outnumber your opponent.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Killerk »

Well do the number except this time factor in crumbling.

Also I' going away for a few days, when I'll return We can quickly go to say UB.net and do a simulation.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Dark knight »

With the Pay to Win strategy why use normal troops at all when you can field heroes? A hundred Sorceresses will easily kill the unit of 100 black guard. Having one very wide unit with the Sorceresses might be a good idea though - you could use a few of the Sorceresses to boost the units armor to 1+ thus making it impossible for them to fail armor saves (Sisters with their ability might be a funny unit to use for this, but any unit works). The unit should be wide enough to make it impossible to get past it without flying (shoot the flyers first). Another important thing is to have enough RBTs to neutralize enemy warmachines and long range ranged units.

Sisters with 1+ armor save would be hilarious in "normal" play as well. Just need ~5 Sorceresses to cast the shield spell to them (try to keep the Sorceresses out of range of enemy wizards). The harder the enemy units hit in melee, the better it works :P Executioners might be a better choise though, since it's easier to make them immune to ranged attacks as well. I'd pick them instead of Black Guard, as they can get past the 1+ shield armor with their mortal wounds ability.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Calisson »

Well thought.
Assuming that the table is just large enough to pack 100 footers/40 cav/20 chariots/20 monsters,
100 dreadlords are as dense and much bloodier than 100 WE/BG.
40 dreadlord on CO are as dense and much bloodier than 40 COK
20 dragonlords are as dense and much bloodier than 20 COK.

They have drawbacks, though.

100 units cannot be boosted, while 1 unit can be made invulnerable to normal attacks, as you identify clearly. Mortal wounds, though, would make through. You identified that well.

Reversely, wounds in excess are wasted on a single man unit: no use to make 6 wounds with a magic missile on a dreadlord on foot.
It is also immune to battleshock.

Finally, a single large unit can charge as a whole, and the whole unit can complete it.
Scores of single man units, on the other hand, cannot all charge: as soon as the first "rank" reaches the enemy, the following "ranks" cannot possibly complete the charge. For that reason alone, better take mounted heroes than foot heroes: they compare to mounted troops which second ranks cannot fight anyway.
Note that a single unit may fail the charge. On the other hand, among 40 dreadlords on CO, even if half of them fail the charge, you will still almost certainly complete the charge with a sufficient number of them to fill the first "rank".

Also, a single unit completing the charge will hit with all models before the enemy can reply, and if not charging, will deliver all its blow early in the combat.
Scores of single man units will have to receive all hits, and often die, before they can possibly deliver their own hits.

-=-=-

After this reflexion, I am inclined to think that indeed, one or two very large units might be the way andwould make a large part of any competitive army.
Sufficient casters to make these units immune to normal blows and to attack the opposing uber-unit with magic missiles.

Compared to an army composed exclusively of monsters, such as dragonlords, such army would be totally immune to normal blows and would autowin the grinding war.

-=-=-

The ultimate war:
two very large units with 1+ army facing each other. No wound possible except magic missiles.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Barking Agatha »

That's interesting. I had assumed that Mystic Shield would not stack with itself, but why not? I may need another sorceress or two.

However, a single massive regiment buffed by 5 Sorceresses seems like a spectacularly bad idea. There are so many ways to get around it and leave it vulnerable. One is hunting down the sorceresses, obviously, with war machines, shooting, flyers, and so on. But...

Suppose you have one unit of 100 Executioners buffed up to 1+ saves. I move 5 Medusae into staring range and roll 500 dice. Never mind the silliness about getting you to look me in the eye -- how many 6s will I get in 500 dice, about 80? So much for that plan!

Or you're playing against Ogres and they have 3 Thundertusks. If they stay 18" away from you that's 21 mortal wounds every turn (counting the bird) and you'll never get to charge them. By the time you catch one of them against the table edge, you won't have half the numbers left. Extra fun if there's a Butcher around casting The Maw at you and getting lucky.

Or you're playing against undead and they tie you up with 50 zombies. They won't hurt you, but you'll never finish them off. In the meantime, the vampires can freely run around snacking on sorceresses.

Those are just off the top of my head.

That being said, I'm definitely going to try mutliple Mystic Shields, just don't depend too much on it !
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Dark knight »

Barking Agatha wrote:However, a single massive regiment buffed by 5 Sorceresses seems like a spectacularly bad idea. There are so many ways to get around it and leave it vulnerable. One is hunting down the sorceresses, obviously, with war machines, shooting, flyers, and so on. But...

Barking Agatha wrote:Or you're playing against undead and they tie you up with 50 zombies. They won't hurt you, but you'll never finish them off. In the meantime, the vampires can freely run around snacking on sorceresses.

To prevent all sorts of ignoring the unit by going around it I suggest the BattleBox(tm) formation! In this formation the protecting unit stays in a hollow square formation. like this
!--------------------------------------------!
!.......................................................!
!.......................................................!
!.......................................................!
!--------------------------------------------! the dots are just empty space
You then fill in the formation with RBTs and Sorceresses. The walls should be at least two models thick to make it harder to break.

There is another problem which can arise from this - line of sight. Now luckily we have multiple kinds of sorceresses. The front lines should mostly have the short Sorceress models. When that's not enough anymore, you move to the ones that are flying on some sort of cloud thingy, after that mounted ones and finally a few with dragons. There is another thing that can be done as well - bring your own hill! Models are now allowed to stand on top of other models' bases, which can make them see better. Now it might be possible to build some sort of hill (didn't try) using the bases like this:
... _--_
_--.....--_ (pretend the dots didn't exist)
Dragons will be extra helpful in this building exercise, as they have a large base. (But really, the bases could be used to make a few models see better and making the formation tighter at the same time) This is also where the true tactical aspect of AoS is - which model to shoot in order to make the opponent's formation collapse! (I want to see pics if someone tries this :P)

Regarding medusae etc - the 50 RBTs I have inside the formation will just annihilate those :P

In case you need to evacuate, the BattleBox can be opened from any side. There should probably also be some flyers outside it to fill it if someone kills too many models to make the model pyramid collapse.

EDIT: edited multiple times to make the formation look better
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Barking Agatha »

Well, 50 RBT's stretches belief, but if you do have 50 RBT's then you don't really need the hollow square formation, or anything else. They'll shred everything.

If I understand your point, is it that without points to limit you and assuming you were a billionaire, and also assuming that your opponent sees 50 RBT's and is still willing to play with you, whoever brings the most and most expensive models will win? That seems to be true, but only at extreme levels of improbability. It's not really a 'tactic' so much as a 'reductio ad absurdum' argument, is it.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Dark knight »

Barking Agatha wrote:Well, 50 RBT's stretches belief, but if you do have 50 RBT's then you don't really need the hollow square formation, or anything else. They'll shred everything.

If I understand your point, is it that without points to limit you and assuming you were a billionaire, and also assuming that your opponent sees 50 RBT's and is still willing to play with you, whoever brings the most and most expensive models will win? That seems to be true, but only at extreme levels of improbability. It's not really a 'tactic' so much as a 'reductio ad absurdum' argument, is it.

I wouldn't field them even if I had, I enjoy challenging and balanced games. That wasn't the point tho like you said - it was mostly to say that I agree with Killerk regarding the pay to win aspect of the game. If people play to win, then the army size would be the most important aspect of the game very often as people have different sized collections (like Killerk with his was it 50k points army). In that case the best strategy is to just field as much as you can. It might be boring, but I dunno if this the right topic for that discussion.

Regarding tactics, I believe the battlebox formation might actually be interesting in many cases, as you could for example protect RBTs or Sorceresses from melee units. Even 10 Sorceresses (those I have!) inside such a formation could be quite deadly and would be able to make the box immune to normal attacks and they are better protected than they could otherwise be. They can be shot at (unless you manage to block the los after magic), but they could be shot at anyway. They are, however, protected from melee as long as the unit around them lasts.

And also as model concentrarion in an area is often important (more models in melee etc.) it's good to remember that you can put them on top of other bases. E.g. dragons have lots of space for normal heroes on their bases. You can also use the bases to get a better view if your los is blocked, but I doubt that would happen very often :P with the battlebox formation it might be useful tho, if it is large enough :D
Calisson wrote:The ultimate war:
two very large units with 1+ army facing each other. No wound possible except magic missiles.


I would like to see this battle once :P
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Sangfroid »

The wording for casting is interesting it say A WIZARD can only attempt to cast these spells once per turn. Which to me means that you can only attempt to cast arcane bolt and mystic shield once irrespective of how many wizards you field, otherwise it would of said EACH not A.

Caps are just to highlight the words :-). How do others read this?
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Dark knight »

Sangfroid wrote:The wording for casting is interesting it say A WIZARD can only attempt to cast these spells once per turn. Which to me means that you can only attempt to cast arcane bolt and mystic shield once irrespective of how many wizards you field, otherwise it would of said EACH not A.

Caps are just to highlight the words :-). How do others read this?


Interesting. English isn't my first language, but I believe it could be interpreted either way. I'd imagine it'd read "These spells can only be attempted to be cast once per turn." or something like that if they could only be cast once by the whole army. I also think most people have understood it as each wizard being able to cast each spell once. As for what GW meant, who knows..
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Sangfroid »

I'd like to think that GW when they designed the spell would know that people could exploit it to give units a 1+ save and that they meant it to read cast once.
That or just say all enhancements and rebuffs do not stack :-)


But that would be too easy wouldn't it!
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Barking Agatha »

Dark knight wrote:It might be boring, but I dunno if this the right topic for that discussion.


I would suggest not, which is the point.

That said, I think the basic idea can work in a more normal setting. I'm probably playing against ogres later today (ironically it depends on how his tummy is feeling!). These ogres are full of dirty tricks, and he likes to use them all, not to mention that they're clearly more powerful on a model to model basis - so, tough match-up. He beat me a lot in 8th ed. and I've only managed to win against him once in AoS because he hadn't got the hang of it yet.

I was thinking of using your idea and forming my dreadspears in a line in front with 1" gaps between them, with my 3 humble RBoT's and Cauldron of Blood in the centre, executioners on one side, and witch elves on the other. The idea is that the dreadspears are really good at taking a charge, and you can't get at the rest without going through them. I can use the Dreadlady's command ability so that they don't take Battleshock, and the sorceress can Mystic Shield them. Then the executioners and witch elves can come out and counter-charge. The 1" gaps are so that the RBoT's can see through them and take out the biggest threats, like the cannon and the Thundertusk. That Thundertusk is sick.

On the other hand, he is no fool. I doubt he will just charge my dreadspears. He'll try to shoot them away with leadbelchers and maneaters, and maybe send in the gnoblars to tie them up and block my line of sight. And I fear the Maw. He can roll 4+ six times in a row almost every time. If it turns into a shooting match... for models that are such monsters in close combat, they sure do have a lot of shooting.

So if you have any other suggestions, now would be a good time :) If I win, I'll do a little dance and tweak his nose.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Barking Agatha »

Dark knight wrote:
Sangfroid wrote:The wording for casting is interesting it say A WIZARD can only attempt to cast these spells once per turn. Which to me means that you can only attempt to cast arcane bolt and mystic shield once irrespective of how many wizards you field, otherwise it would of said EACH not A.

Caps are just to highlight the words :-). How do others read this?


Interesting. English isn't my first language, but I believe it could be interpreted either way. I'd imagine it'd read "These spells can only be attempted to be cast once per turn." or something like that if they could only be cast once by the whole army. I also think most people have understood it as each wizard being able to cast each spell once. As for what GW meant, who knows..


Easy. It says 'a wizard'. If you have 'another wizard', then feel free.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Calisson »

Sangfroid wrote:The wording for casting is interesting it say A WIZARD can only attempt to cast these spells once per turn. Which to me means that you can only attempt to cast arcane bolt and mystic shield once irrespective of how many wizards you field, otherwise it would of said EACH not A.

Caps are just to highlight the words :-). How do others read this?
AoS rules wrote:A wizard can only attempt to cast each spell once per turn.
"Only" refers clearly to the number of attempts by one wizard and presents no limits for another wizard.
They did not say "A wizard only can attempt..." which would limit the whole army.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Daeron »

I read it as every wizard being able to cast his or her spells once per turn, regardless of the others. At no point in the rules is implied that this is a shared pool of spells. That said... It would make sense if every spell could only be cast once per turn. It's an interesting Comp rule that would also avoid a lot of the issues with summoning.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by tehnico »

Got a question/idea.

Shooting is really strong in AoS. Units of Darkshards can be any size. Why not deploy every model as a single +3 inches apart to prevent pile-in creep? Shooting and charging is only at single targets, one model or unit. Why not completely bog down all the hitting and firepower aspects of the enemy?
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Daeron »

Charging is not at a single target. You declare that you are charging, roll the dice and then move to any (number of) opponents you want to. The only restriction is that your first charging model has to be within 1/2" of the enemy.

Your individual units would be immune to battleshock and it might make it difficult to shoot them in return. However, in combat they would be weak as most of them would strike last. You would have to assign them in combat one at a time. The opponent, using one large unit, could probably knock a whole lot of models down in 1 go.

I'd have to read the rules again, but I think a Darkshard unit return fire would be permitted to resolve the shooting per model, and using the different number of attacks would permit them to target different units/models. I'm not sure though. It could be they are allowed to pick as many targets, as a unit, as they have attacks.
Additionally, you're giving the opponent the liberty to choose which models will be removed. While that's not as big a deal from a distance, it might matter eventually or in combat.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Calisson »

Daeron wrote:I think a Darkshard unit return fire would be permitted to resolve the shooting per model, and using the different number of attacks would permit them to target different units/models. I'm not sure though. It could be they are allowed to pick as many targets, as a unit, as they have attacks.
RB wrote:When a unit attacks, you must first pick the target units for the attacks that the models in the unit will make
targets units (plural) for the attacks made by a unit (singular).
Sure a unit of 10 darkshards can allocate attacks to 20 different units if they wish.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Icon hack »

Daeron wrote:....Additionally, you're giving the opponent the liberty to choose which models will be removed. While that's not as big a deal from a distance, it might matter eventually or in combat.

I had my opponent take advantage of this very rule in the one game I've played so far. I had a Dreadlord on CO, a unit of WE and a Hydra all in contact with a unit of Chaos Warriors. The WE and Dreadlord killed about a half dozen between them and the Chaos player removed models from the end of the unit that the Hydra was close to. By the time the Hydra could have attacked, there were no enemy models within 3", so it was unable to pile in and attack despite having charged that turn. Smart way to play it on his part.
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Re: Un-Welcome to the Age of Sigmar

Post by HobbyKiller »

In my latest blog post I discuss the perceived lack of tactics within AOS and how I feel that there are plenty of tactics - at least under my definition of tactics - https://hobbykiller.wordpress.com/2015/ ... ics-right/

Mod's edit:
Moved from the "un-Welcome" thread.
There is one thread for rant, and another for investigation. This post obviously is about investigation.
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by gutpaunch »

Hi all,

Ive just started playing Dark Elves and the only games Ive had so far have been in an AOS escalation campaign at my local GW store.
I was not and I am still not impressed with AOS however I am enjoying playing in this campaign using the Druchii.
In the early games I was losing heavily to a wide range of armies but over the weeks I have begun to win more games and win BIG.

I think that this is down to one factor, and this is a factor where my opponents and friends agree.......Reaper Bolt Throwers!
I started with 2, then went to 3 and now have 4 and they are brutal.
Most notable games:

1) Against Slaanesh Daemons, 1 RBT took out the Keeper on turn 1!
2) Against Empire, in 1 turn they took out 2 cannons and reduced general on big beasty (Karl Franz lookalike) to 5 wounds.

Ive never bee a huge fan of shooting of any description in my 8th Ed armies but in AOS shooting is definitely worth taking.
I will continue playing AOS in the campaign but I am looking forward to fielding my ladies (all female army) in their first 8th Ed game
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Re: AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics...

Post by Calisson »

An all ladies army?
I'm sure some will look forwards for you posting pics in the P&M forum.
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