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AOS game discussions: strategies, tactics... 
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Corsair
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Indeed, I fear the vulnerability of characters against shooting and melee. This tactics would at least take care of risks in melee.

I would anticipate that at the start of the game, a player would valuate his chances and select among two very different strategies:
If chances are he might table off his opponent, then better is to start with lone models, then the unbuffed troops will be easier to deal with.
If he aims at a minor victory, then better kill as many rank and files as possible and get a higher % of body count, and just ignore lone models.

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Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:40 pm
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Assuming all of the special rules are met (X amount of models give X buffs) and only 10 models in each unit can attack the stats for the infantry staples are (roughly);

20 x Corsairs - 6 wounds
20 x Dreadspears - 4 wounds
20 x Witch Elves - 14 wounds
10 x Executioners - 9 wounds (3 mortal)
10 x Black Guard - 11 wounds at -1

Black Guard with 2 attacks, hitting on 3+, re-rolling hit rolls of 1, wounding on 3+, a -1 to the save, 2" range and a 4+ save are pretty nasty.


Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:38 pm
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Calisson wrote:
You can even make a larger square with empty center, as long as the square perimeter is 3 units deep you got your defensive ability. In the middle hole, place your vulnerable BSB, CoB, foot general, or even the dragonlord, ready to jump over the lines and attack given the opportunity.


The problem with this formation is that the vulnerable model and the unit surrounding it have to complete their move separately. Unless you have a gap in your formation as large as your movement distance, you might be hampering your movement.

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Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:20 pm
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Thank you all for reading my topic and joining in with detailed discussions.

The Mattler wrote:
1) Rotation is not aesthetic; it costs movement because no part of a model may move more than the model's move characteristic. However, I doubt anyone will lose sleep over the rotation of infantry models unless they have levelled spears.
3) The only thing keeping the game from being broken is the intelligence of the players in their army selection and tactics. Age of Sigmar gives you all of the rope in the world to hang yourself, but when two competent generals have a game, it's a fair tug-of-war.


1) The rules state that even rotation is measured. But paired with 360 movement and line of sight it's just an aesthetic move. It's not as contradictory as it sounds.
There is no benefit associated with rotating your models, game wise. You don't "win" any distance. Rotating, or pivoting your model during movement will always give the model a shorter move distance than sliding it in a straight line in whatever direction you want them. As a result, it becomes something you would do for aesthetics only. Unless, of course, you have a fairly irregularly shaped model and want to close-in to another model while dodging another (or hitting it as well).

3) Hmm... it's not enough "as is" in my opinion. I'm not saying it's impossible to achieve that tug-of-war within AoS but it isn't there yet.

For the WAAC player, or competitive player, there isn't a minimal sanity check. It's not a compliment for the warhammer community that their first order of business is seeking ways to break the game... but they have succeeded it by the sound of it.
- Apparently, it's possible to deploy a single Scorpion, burrowed under the sand where it can't be hit. Choose sudden death scenario endure and let your opponent walk about for 6 turns.
- Arguably, some terrain features are a war scroll too. Deploying one of those gives you an indestructible army.
- ...
There is no minimal requirement (like WFB 8th ed 'at least x units') on what your army has to contain. As there are no specifications, anti-gaming techniques are equally valid. They may make you look like an idiot, and you may find yourself out of opponents quickly, but in the strict sense of the game these are winner tactics.
Stupid yes, but was it so hard to include "You need at least X wounds, or X units" in the rules?

For the casual, friendly player, there is no common benchmark to build a fun list
If my buddy wants to invite me for a few fun games, I have no idea what to bring except all my miniatures. During deployment, there is no benchmark or common ground given in the war scrolls. If we have mirroring armies and/or units then I could respond to his every drop of 10 core infantry with a drop of 10 core infantry on my own. But when you work out different styles of armies, that comparison becomes very complex, very quickly. What would be a fair drop opposing a Gyrocopter?
How many units per hero choice would be a good starting point?

Not that WFB was the epitome of balance. Not that I expect AoS to be that. But now I'm left entirely clueless unless I fight his units a lot, and theory craft the rest.
Scenario and story based gaming is winning big time in liberty. That was something my most regular opponent and I were really hoping to do and AoS might give us our fill. But I would have appreciated some sort of framework that helps us on our way. Now there's only the starter box.

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Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:21 pm
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Well, having read more attentively the DE scroll, here are my findings.


1. Monsters.
They are deadly. 9 to 15 attacks, hitting average 4+, wounding easily 3+, often making 2 damage.
They have 10-14 wounds, K-beast, Hydra and Maly can regenerate them.
In addition, dragons fly at 14".
If you want to give your opponent hard times, go monsters.
At first glance, I'd rate:
Malekith > Dragonlord > Manticore BM > Hydra > Kharibdyss > Dragonsorc.
Note that the MantiBM makes reroll hits of 1 by monster models (including the rider). It is only because of this ability that I rate him better than the non-flying monsters - but only to make another monster better.
Note that for some obscure reason, the Manticore can't fly.


2. Shooters
RBT at 36", shoots 12 times. I understand it counts as 3 models. Can't beat that.

The scourgerunner seems interesting, it moves 12" and shoots 5 shots at 16 or 18". Plus slight bonus against monsters.
Note: Strange enough, it is now a unit of 1-99 models, including one kind of champion named BM. I see no benefit to take several of them, I see only benefits to say that all SR are single unit with BM.
However, COC are quite good as shooters and twice as deadly in melee. They are better choice if you have not built your model.

DR are good with 3 shots and 14" move. Plus interesting ability. Take shields, always.

Shades could be interesting as scouts, but I don't foresee any great use for that ability. Still, they shoot better than Darkshards.
EDIT: Lord Drakon AOS reports has a good use: to carry assassins close to the opponent's heroes.

Darkshards have one great ability: the minimum size is... 1. And that 1 can be the champion. Using this flaw makes them immune to Battleshock. I'm sure there might be other loopholes in melee and shooting phase thanks to this.

RAW for Medusa/BWS indicate that if a unit is within 10", all models (not limited to those in range) have 1/6 chance to get a wound.
That seems a great anti-horde ability: a unit of 4 medusas halves the number of models. However, it makes no sense to kill models out of range and I would not personally use this ability for models at more than 10".

Overall, for shooters, I'd take RBT and SR (if model already available) and DR above footers.


3. Mass melee.
Here, I look for large units, with the ability to add the attacks from many models.
And the winner is... the COC, by far. One unit can include 99 chariots if you have them! And with 6 attacks per model, it hurts!
In addition, they are not bad shooters and they move fast. Their only drawback is their width, which prevents rear ranks to fight. You could field a large unit of COC in a very wide line, and charge! It would stampede most things on its path.
Be sure to take a CO dreadlord as general if you go for such a large COC unit.

COK are fast and deadly (especially on the charge). They have a standard. Good save. What not to love?

Warlocks seem to be good in melee, very quick, with 4 attacks per model. Plus arcane ability! They should be great to protect your flanks/rear.

The Medusa, in unit of 1-99, could be a neat choice, with many deadly attacks per model, in addition to its deadly shooting. It is quick, too. Its main drawback is that is is not an Exile/DE unit, so no command ability can help its mediocre bravery.

Then come the footloggers. Their advantage is that they can be compacted in large, dense units.
I'd evaluate roughly that WE>BG=Execs>SoS.
WE supported by a CoB have an incredible density of attacks. However, they will die in droves with no armor but the CoB.
BG and Execs are close. BG get the advantage of a greater weapon range.
SoS are not as good as WE with support, but at least they need no support.

The corsairs need obviously to be commanded by a Fleetmaster of Lokhir. Even then, I'm not sure they reach SoS level.

I see no use for dreadspears/bleakswords, unless you take the Exiled Warhost - but in this case, you could take only 3 models of darkshards and get away with them...
EDIT: Spears could be a nice defensive unit, in very large numbers.


4. Single unit melee.
Note that heroes are limited to 1 per unit. It means that it is not interesting to buff them as units.
However, no rule prevents you to take 99 units of dreadlords if you wish.
And that would be very useful.

Dreadlord on foot or on CO (including Malus) are very capable individual fighters, much deadlier than any WE or GB.
If you're not limited by mutual agreement or comp, do not hesitate to take as many as you can.

The assassin (not Shadowblade) has interesting anti-hero ability. It can hide in any DE unit, any number of assassins. You could imagine "air Ninja" dropping from a dragon a dozen 'sass in vicinity of an opponent hero (possibly riding a monster) and all the sass poisoning that hero before it has a chance to strike.

I'd rank the single units as follows:
All monsters > Malus > CO lord > foot lord > COB Hellebron > BW shrine. You can take them for their fighting ability.
Then, Shadowblade > Assassin > Hellebron > CoB = COC > Lokhir > Master BSB > Fleetmaster. If you wish to take them, they fight better than any ranked unit, and in addition they bring unique properties.

All other single model units are to be taken because of their unique ability, not because they fight well.


5. Buffers.
Noted already the need to take a CO dreadlord to help COC/COK to be even deadlier.
Hellebron allows one unit to pile and attack twice. That is incredibly powerful in conjonction with a large unit.
The dreadlord on foot has the great ability to have one unit reroll failed wounds. This alone makes a mediocre unit become elite.

The BSB has a similar ability, and this is not a command ability! One should always take a BSB.
Note that RAW do not prevent anyone to take several BSB. That seems strange, when only one general can use a command ability. I'd assume that BSB should be limited to 0-1, even if it is not specified.

I have not realized yet the usefulness of other buffs or magic abilities.
Please complement that first study.


6. Magic-users.
Well, they no longer compete against each other for scarce powerdice.
Malekith heals himself.
The sorc on foot has WoP wich makes an opposing unit hit less (shooting and melee). That can be precious.
All other casters are just like another shooting unit. With a good movement value, that can be useful sometimes.

For spellcasters, the synergy seems to be with terrains.
Balewind Vortex, Dreadfire Portal, Dreadstone Blight, Witchfate Tor make interesting additions.


7. Units with no use.
Well, Bleakswords seem not to bring much to the army. I see no particular use for them.
Everything else could argue some use.

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Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:22 am
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The dreadlord on a dragons command ability is almost a halfway house between the generic inspiring presence and more mele focused ones already mentioned, if gives a slight buff to combat and also provide battle shock immunity (if your close enough.....)

I think spears are a strong unit because if you have a block of them don't move and have numbers over 20 they hit on a 2+ couple that with the foot dreadlords, reroll all wounds and you have a solid unit

Also saddened by our manticore, it can't fly and doesn't have its own special rule like the chaos manticore which is frustrating as monsters are strong and it would have been nice to have a command option on the manticore.


Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:07 am
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You guys have incorrectly assessed corsairs and I am going to defend them because I have always loved them. It will also highlight a new mechanic no one is talking about namely Assault, shoot and THEN charge (yup it's a 40k mechanic)

Corsairs are not front line troops they are skirmishers or to revert to old WHFB speak "chaff"

they should be used in one of 3 way I think

1) to screen your line get some shots off do some damage in return if charged and then retreat away from danger in the next movement phase allowing some other unit to step up and charge the enemy. You have halted the enemies advance and guaranteed a charge with a unit you want to attack first plus done some softening of the enemy. If they all die too bad we were used to,this happening in WHFB when the 5 man dark riders got nailed so why is it any different now.

2) used as secondary units "flankers" they sit behind the main unit and once the enemy is engaged move up to within 3 inches fire off a volley and then charge in and attack. In this they have 3 attacks per turn this way and 20 models will (excluding saving throws) dish out on average 10 wounds assuming they all shoot and strike in combat, which is why you take them in smaller units of 10ish so they can all strike and maximise their potential.

(Note that the above calculation that of black guard doing 11 wounds in comparison to the corsairs now is not so clear.....)

3) speed bumps, advance shoot a target, charge get your attacks off and force a battleshock test. A potential 5 wounds on average with 10 guys means you might get lucky and cause a couple to flee, (come back to that) also if they don't all die or you buff them to be immune from battleshocks, your opponent has to either stay put and kill them or retreat and thus waste his initiative, so a similar result to 1) but without the retreat.

Their special ability when added to the potential wounds caused by our stronger units could mean the opponent losing a few more models over the course of a game (especially if used as flankers) also if your inclined that way with lokhir, the roll moves to a 4+ so basically an extra 50% of models die if they flee, not so significant with skeletons, but with cavalry or multi wound models there is a big issue (think of it as getting a mortal kill on a 4+ for every model that flees) now look through the army scrolls and there are some interesting synergies, dark riders , harpies and kharybdyss (fleet master doesn't count as you can only have either him or lokhir as general so wastes a command ability unless you get Magethrone scenery) -1 bravery or extra models killed on a flee or the dark riders messing with BS tests. So even a big 20+ man AHW units can for a function if desired (though not optimal use in my opinion)

I think 2 or 3 small units of 10 interspersed between your lines is a sound investment, and the extra flee on a 6 could help quite a bit if you cause enough wounds because even a enemy unit with a 4+ save if they engage your 10 blackguard and then get charged and shot by your corsairs on average are going to lose 10 models, scale that up with a bigger unit of black guard (even just 15) your getting around 14 dead enemy, make that Bs test :-) ...........and even if they do buff their unit with IP they aren't using their other command abilities where they want them so once again you are dictating the enemies game not them.

Corsairs love em and happy they have been buffed in AoS


Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:31 pm
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BASE RULE - Why take corsairs (or any other troop) if you can take better troops, they cost the same!!!

1) there is no more screening, as anything can shoot anything. I can have my dragon sit in the corner and use his breath weapon on your unit of anything anywhere on the table, just in LoS and range. As fas as CC look at base rule.

2) there is no such thing as flanking, and why use corsairs when look at base rule.

3) this is possibly viable, but look at base rule.

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Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:06 pm
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1) screening exists, your unit wants to charge my blackguard but I put 10 corsairs in the way you attack and either kill them or get stopped, my turn I charge your unit with my blackguard and attack first that's a screen. Also your dragons range is 6 inches if your within 6 inches and don't kill the corsairs they will have a good change at taking off 4-5 wounds on your dragon (excluding tyrant shield carrying Lord) which then makes the dragon less effective and closer to death.

2) flanking exisits just not in the form of +1 to CR for flank charging, if you hold up a attakcer with a line or square unit they will pile around you then you counter charge with the corsairs and maximise your attacks at the enemy whilst taking less attacks back in return due to the fact your opponent has overstretched his/her lines. That is a flank in AoS terms

Base rule: synergy

corsairs can effectively have 3 attacks each can shoot and reroll failed 1s to save when shot at, can cause even a demigryph to die 1in6 times (1in4 with lokhir) if they flee you get 10 per scroll instead of 5 (compared to BG, execs, witches etc...)

You take corsairs because they are differnent to other units and have different abilities, in the discourse above I didn't give a 4th option which was let your line engage and just sit 9 inches away and pour shots into the enemy while being under no threat (except from a different enemy unit of course)

Kanadian ive have watched your diffenent posts over the last year and your strategic grasp of WhFb 8th was excellent I'd love to see you open that thought process to AoS even if you had no intention of trying it out there is a depth underneath those 4 pages and the druchii will find it and more importantly exploit it, it's what the "exiles" are good at!

To finish 10 corsairs can on average kill 2 liberators on the assault, with a kharibdyss nearby that means they are fleeing on a 4+, with a dark rider unit closeby they are having an extra D6 added to their BS roll as well. Even if your enemy makes them immune from BS you have still put a dent in their lines, they roll a 6 on their battleshock and theirs one guy left and you have 3 dice to roll to see if he dies on a 6. It's not so convoluted and is a tactic.
(Edit I may have been a little enthusiastic with my maths here but they could do it :-)


Last edited by Sangfroid on Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:28 pm
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Calisson wrote:
Indeed, I fear the vulnerability of characters against shooting and melee.


You can say that again!

Calisson wrote:
Indeed, I fear the vulnerability of characters against shooting and melee.


Yeah, especially shooting. Leading from behind is a thing now. I've been keeping my characters out of range (not forgetting that their shooters can move and shoot). That won't help against, say, an Empire Cannon, but cannons were always character killers, so not much change there. That has made the sorceress very difficult to use, because as good as Word of Pain is, she has to get within 16" to use it.

The good news is that Dark Elf bolt throwers outrange most things. My suggestion is to concentrate them together in your centre, protected by infantry, and fire them all at the same target, like Napoleon taught us :). Dark Elf troops are very vulnerable, so single out the biggest threat and shred it to bits; it's just not enough to put a few wounds in them. I've been using three, but I'm thinking four might be about right.


Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:18 am
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After a bit more thought, I'd add a few more bits and pieces.

Turn randomiser: equalizing aspects, confusing movement, some statistics

One of the weirdest changes to the rules, with respect to previous editions, is that you now have to roll to decide who goes first in a battle round. At first this seems confusing, upsetting even, as it fundamentally changes a basic concept of a turn based game. After a bit more thought, I start to see some side effects that aren't all bad. Not all good either ;)

Equalizing shooting in first two rounds
First of all, it seems to bring an equalizer to shooting. I've faced Dwarven gunlines on a regular basis in 8th and I can't emphasize the importance of winning that first roll enough. It would make a completely different game. Let's say we count the first two turns as having the biggest impact. In 8th, you had two possible scenarios (Ignoring the deployment bonus there for a second):
  • 50% best case. First in round 1, first in round 2.
  • 50% worst case. Last in round 1, last in round 2.

The new mechanic allows 4 possible scenarios.
  • 25% best case. First in round 1, first in round 2.
  • 25% balanced, but beneficial situation. last in round 1, first in round 2. You get 2 turns before taking a second round of shooting. You do have to bear the full weight of the first round of shooting.
  • 25% balanced, but mild disadvantage. first in round 1, last in round 2. You must bear 2 rounds of shooting before your second turn. However, you do get to start with a round of your own, perhaps weakening some of your opponent's shooting.
  • 25% worst case. Last in round 1, last in round 2.

Winning the first toss still gives you a good start, but it comes with fewer guarantees. Losing the first toss might still offer a come back.

Going first creates double turn opportunities for your opponent

The only way to get a double turn is by going last in one turn, and going first in the subsequent turn. Usually, it's beneficial to go first in your turn. But there's an odd side effect. If you win the toss and go first, then your opponent goes last. For the next turn, that opponent has a 50% chance of going first and getting the 'rumoured to be devastating' double turn.

While I doubt there are many situations where you want to hang back and relax, it might be interesting to keep this in mind: going last may just create an opportunity later.

The dangers (and safety) of turn 1.

Turn 1 of the first battle round is still a dangerous one. If your opponent goes first, then you have to suffer whatever damage he can inflict before you have had a first hero phase. This implies you have no command or hero abilities in place. A good deal of hero phase abilities handle damage control or battle shock control, so you're facing the damage of your opponent without protection.

That said: there are other factors that counter this.
  • Very few spells are within range at the first hero phase. Magic probably won't be a notable source of damage as the opponent hasn't been able to close in yet.
  • The Range has been reduced on most shooting weapons. Our own darkshards have a 6" move radius with a 16" shooting range. There is but a slim chance they'll be able to shoot in turn 1. High Elf archers can combine 6" move with a 20" shooting range, but this still limits the reach. Not all weapons will have effect on turn 1.

This may give a boost to the value of Dark Riders who can move enough to get within range, and Shades who can deploy within range. Beware though that Shades might also be in range of enemy shooting who have no other targets to go for :)

Double movement

Since the amount of shooting won't drastically change because of the roll-off at the start of a battle round, it looks like movement is influenced the most. When it's possible to get two movement turns in a row, one's mobility and charge range change dramatically. Do we always need to take that into account?

As it turns out, no because of the way a double turn occurs. You can get a double round if you went last in one round and this is followed by battle round where the toss lets you choose to go first. If you go first, then you won't get a double round. If you go last, then your opponent can not get a double round.

So, on one hand taking first turn gives you the initiative in that battle round. On the other hand, it forces you to take into account a potential double turn from your opponent. That said, I still think it's better to go first. But it's something to keep in mind.

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Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:51 am
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How to win a game of AoS, I have taught long and hard, the best way to achieve is through a tactic I call "Pay to win" PtW for short. It gets you the most chances to win.

what is PtW? The UK has done this in the past, where their fleet had to be bigger then the top 2 other nations, and they conquered a third of the world, building the biggest empire in history. It can work for them then surely it can work for you. How to achieve this in AoS? Well its simple, you need to buy more elite and shooting models then your opponent can ever field, and this is not a joke.

I will go over a few possible scenarios.
You must first look at the game mechanics. And ask you self how can I win?

Them most important rule is not to loose, pretty simple, but most people forget about this, as they are so focused on trying to win. And they just set them selves up for a disaster.

Once that is done, and you know you wont loose say by sudden death, you can focus on the winning.
You must consider how the game can be won, in AoS your options are:

1. wipe my opponents models off the table
2. sudden death
3. loos a smaller portion of you army then you opponent.

So lets expand on this.

How to achieve this?
Again we look at the game mechanics, what will allow me to gain an upper hand.

a. You can have any amount of troops you want.
b. You hit and wound ever thing regardless of what it is.
c. units have many wounds but little protection.
d. Shooting is overpowered

okay with that in mind, how to secure yourself from loosing?
You must consider what is your opponent playing?
if he is going to go for a sudden death?
I suggest fielding war machines first, a hero, possibly a caster. Small things that will not allow my opponent to get sudden death option. Or if he has limited shooting, then don't worry just make sure you have a considerably larger force at your disposal.

Now the way the rules are constructed in a way that makes shooting is just broken. There are no restrictions of who you can shoot, if something is hiding behind buildings obelisks, you just need a bit sticking out, and then BOOM!!! you can cannon ball it in the forehead, I realize you dont have cannons, but still, did you know cannons now shoot twice, and hit on a 3/4+. Also there are no rules that prevent you form shooting from, and in to combat. So you can shoot and then charge your opponent, and in the next phase, you can shoot them again, and continue fighting in combat. Combine that with special rules that allow units over 20 to get extra shots (archers usually get double, man at arms get quadruple), Remember shooting rules are badly written so you can move your war machines and still shoot. So in druchii terms you could use like a 100 shades, 20 RBT, 10 chariots and the rest should be Malekith and all the black guard in the world. The rest is irrelevant in the list. They are sub optimal and pointless to field, except heroes, you can have many of them also, as they don't crumble ever.

The deployment is critical, this is where the game is decided, do this right and you auto win, do this wrong and you have to depend on your opponent to screw up and give you a fighting chance.

If you has access to canons you should always aim for the kill the hero sudden death option. Unless your fighting TK, they will just bury the chosen hero, and you cant win. Then drop on the table ever thing they have, This is called Pay to win - who ever bought more will win. Go GW.
If there is any way you can hide a unit or hero, then drop every thing you have on the table. Same thing if there is any way your opponent can hide it from you, make sure you have more elites then he does, considerably.

If you want to try for the sudden death your self, you need to ensure, you have so much shooting, you can delete any hero any where on the table, only then you can choose to go for sudden death. just stop deploying, right here, choose kill character, you get first turn blast him, game over you won. This is the only situation where you use all you troops as a mislead.
Rest is just is irrelevant, since you can shoot through units and any terrain. Do it, then pack up your toys and go home a winner.
If your opponent is decides to continue setting up units, start dropping big units of shades and BG, then minimal sized units switching back and forth, to get your volume up. Who ever has the ability to roll more dice will win, it is a flaw of the game mechanic engine used in AoS (Again Pay to win, because who has more models rolls more dice and has upper hand).

Remember not to go over 33% of the models you opponent has, the only time you go over is if you know you opponent ran out of models. Remember his war machines can also move and shoot.
So if he has limited shooting, and his war machines cant get to your heroes, you must decide if you have enough of your own shooting to take his threats off, before they can target your hero or unit. Securing your self so you don't loose. If you calculate, and the outcome is you can shoot the threats off then go crazy deploy so many units, that there is no room on the table for more. You have already won. This is Pay to win at its finest.

Taking units that are not the best, is just a waste of space on the table. And giving your opponent a chance to win.

All other so called tactics are irrelevant, if deployment is done right, game is decided there and then you win. If you mess up while your opponent doesn't, game is also decided and you loose. If you both mess up, then you can actually have a game. The only problem is time, with sooo many units you might not finish a game, but that is AoS for you.

And Remember Pay to win is your best bet to win your AoS games.

With the above you easily to reach objective 1 and 3. By fielding a considerably larger force then your opponent, you can easily take all of his models off.
As to point 3, by having the most elite models you can possibly field even if even if your enemy kill 3 times what you killed your force should be big enough to make that number insufficient.

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Last edited by Killerk on Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:53 pm
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Thanks for your analysis, which is pertinent.
I would remind that there are two limits and a counter:

Space:
Battles are foughts on tables which are "any size or shape provided it’s bigger than 3 feet square." + "divide the battle field into two equal-sized halves" + "Models must be set up in their own territory, more than 12" from enemy territory."
There is only so many models you can pile on 1.51 square feet, minus 12" no man's land. Even if you step models over other model's bases (bases are not taken into account, are they?).
If you bring your army to a shop, they determine the size of the table.

Time:
"If it has not been possible to fight a battle to its conclusion". There is one limit to the duration a battle may last, which is "possible".
In that case, the player that lost less % of their models could claim a minor victory.
If the opponent has an army of monsters, he might have an easier game chewing off your elites than you shooting his many wounds for being rewarded a single model.
If you play in a shop, the owner may well have placed a time limit.

Now the counters:
- The British Fleet ruled the oceans indeed... until it could not cope with the rise of the US Fleet and was forced to abandon its policy.
In AoS, a WAAC player (appropriate name for those ready to spend a lot of money for their power creep) can always be countered by a richer WAAC player (or a richer association of players).
- When the British Fleet ruled the Oceans, as the French Fleet could not compete in dire times, they designed the "Fleet in being" theory: the few remaining ships stayed idle in port, while the Brits would nervously patrol off ALL French ports because of the mere potential for disruption the French ships presented. The Brits ruled indeed, but at what disproportionate cost?
In AoS, WAAC players may have fun bringing ten suitcases full of models... once. They will get tired very quickly. And if they play home, they will need to pay for lots of beer and pretzels for opponents to still wish to come.
- The German Fleet after WWI was reduced to a limited number of ships and a limited tonnage. Then they designed pocket dreadnoughts with super guns, which would destroy any British dreadnought before they would be able to shoot a single shot.
In AoS, we have now the list of armies from "the world-that-was". Don't be surprised if a future unit not yet released by GW is next to immune to the old armies. For example, a future Death unit could be immune to shooting and would make the 90 shades you just bought irrelevant.

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Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:28 pm
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Space, yes space is a factor, but nothing you can do about it. Just remember to have the most and utter elite units, any thing else is a waist of space, I believe this was mentioned earlier.

Time, that is why shooting is sooo important its much faster to shoot something then try to get in to combat. And multiple war machines should deal with any monsters, just as long as you remember to bring way to many.

As to if you want to win, Pay for it.

I'm not really worried bout GW releasing anything, This game hit bottom, and I'm out. I'm a practical person, I have models if GW decides to make the game interesting, I will surely have a go.

Mod's edit.
Few words removed.
calisson.

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Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:37 pm
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Killerk wrote:
Combine that with special rules that allow units over 20 to get extra shots (archers usually get double, man at arms get quadruple)


High Elf archers get double shots only once per battle, regardless of how many they are. Bretonnian bowmen (not men-at-arms, obviously) also get triple shots only once per battle, quadruple if they're over 20. The advantage to units over 20 is that High Elves hit on 3's instead of 4's. There is no special advantage for Bretonnian Bowmen being over 20

Mod's edit:
Out of place opinions and non-tactical considerations were taken out.
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Last edited by Barking Agatha on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:47 pm
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Killerk wrote:
There are no restrictions of who you can shoot, there is no hiding behind buildings obelisks.


The target must be visible, pg 4, "Picking Targets", first paragraph.
Other than that, seems like a viable tactic albeit logistically and financially quite consuming. There are a few one-drop counters so it might be financially safer to invest in that.
For example, the 1 Reaper Bolt Thrower victory.

1. Deploy reaper bolt thrower. Done.
2. As you finished deploying first, you get to go first.
3. Shoot 1 model. Doesn't matter which (easiest is safest).
4. Refuse to continue the game.

Page 2, "Glorious Victory", second paragraph:
"If it has not been possible to fight a battle to its conclusion or the outcome is not obvious, then a result of sorts can be calculated by comparing the number of models removed from play with the number of models originally set up for the battle for each army. Expressing these as percentages provides a simple way to determine the winner."
=> 1 model from whatever the army is > 0%.
=> Victory.

Stalling has been around in WFB as well. I think tournaments had rules against it. Admitted, I do think some minimal restrictions to the game would alleviate a lot of the worries. From what I have seen, AoS doesn't play by an "anything goes" setup but scenarios. The scenarios invalidate a lot of the one-drop tactics.
The scenarios seem to limit what you put down but I have not investigated them sufficiently to know if they invalidate a pay-to-win method completely. I just read the book's fluff, will read the scenarios tonight :)

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Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:49 pm
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yes, you need to see but a fraction of a model, try hiding Nagash behind a building, but if any part is viable, BOOM cannon ball right to the forehead.

Strategies and tactics are there to win.

Dareon
1. You cant really refuse to continue a game according to the rules.
2. You have to argue with your opponent that there has not been a clear winner, I would argue I clearly won.

Rules are as written, not as we wish them to be.

Mod's edit.
Jugements taken out.
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Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:59 pm
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[Mod on]
Getting tired to edit posts and remove non-constructive sentences.
For the last time, if you want to criticize, do it in another thread before my patience is exhausted.
Thanks.
Calisson
[Mod off]


There's a limit to LoS if you cram all the space with models.
Your shooters will find difficult to see through so many models.

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Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:23 pm
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Shooting is a tactic and so we need to devise a counter for it if faced with it but its not got the same range as in previous whfb, also if faced with a shooting focused army (so not to good in melee) so for me it's simple deploy the same tactic you would have done a month ago when faced with a dwarf gun line or woodie avoidance list: bum rush

move full distance with everything run with everything and get into combat before you are dead if your lucky to get first turn (or win the roll for 2nd turn after going second- see daerons analysis of this even better!) in any case this is not really that different to 3 canons 3 grudge thrower 2 organ guns lists I've seen at various tournies is it? You get in to combat you win, you get shot To bits enough before you get in, you lose!

Tell me I'm wrong and that these shooty lists didn't exist 2 weeks ago and that they have only appeared since AoS......

On the last weekend of June I went to a tourney under etc comp where the winning team had TK list with 100 archers (not sure if exact number but it's onTWF under Big 4 man etc) with Khalida, that general scored 100 TP out of 100 TP


Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:35 pm
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There is definitely a pay to win angle because win conditions and even battleshock are based off models, so bring your monsters/hero/monstrous cav or multi-wound models. A mournfang is one model just like a dreadspear, these two aren't even remotely in the same league when it comes to how the game gets played. Especially since bases don't count, so start modeling your mournfang on 20mms.

I feel like half of any strategy in the game ends up going into the negotiation phase with your opponent before you even start the game to try and make it reasonable.


Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:41 pm
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Sangfroid wrote:
Shooting is a tactic and so we need to devise a counter for it if faced with it but its not got the same range as in previous whfb, also if faced with a shooting focused army (so not to good in melee) so for me it's simple deploy the same tactic you would have done a month ago when faced with a dwarf gun line or woodie avoidance list: bum rush


That is WFB talk. Shooters are just a deadly, in combat, don't forget they can shoot you while you are in combat with them, and then they get to fight. They still hit and wound on 4+. So not to be considered as weak.

r530 wrote:
I feel like half of any strategy in the game ends up going into the negotiation phase with your opponent before you even start the game to try and make it reasonable.


Well its that or PtW (Pay to Win).

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Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:50 pm
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Killerk wrote:
Sangfroid wrote:
Shooting is a tactic and so we need to devise a counter for it if faced with it but its not got the same range as in previous whfb, also if faced with a shooting focused army (so not to good in melee) so for me it's simple deploy the same tactic you would have done a month ago when faced with a dwarf gun line or woodie avoidance list: bum rush


That is WFB talk. Shooters are just a deadly, in combat, don't forget they can shoot you while you are in combat with them, and then they get to fight. They still hit and wound on 4+. So not to be considered as weak.[quote="Killerk"]

Yes you are right there, but that first charge and subsequent combat is the clincher you should be able to tear a hole in them and force some losses by battleshock so their effectiveness diminishes, it's certainly harder than it was in WHFB where you could simultaneously protect a unit by charging and also negate the fire from a unit by charging it..... but it's the way to deal with it and synergys well with a druchii exiles list of dark riders, warlocks, shades, dragon lord, etc... Even our infantry can move pretty sharpish and a lucky double phase will see them engage turn two.... But the fast cav remain the stronger choice especially as they can shoot magic into combats themselves and have a good level of attacks per model. Our dark riders move as far as flyin units it's not to be underestimated plus have 3 attacks in shooting and 3 in combat and a 30 inch shoot range and realistic 21 inch charge range on average.

In fact our flying coldones (you know that's the only think I absolutely hate about AoS either have peg guys or don't, not some stupid flying lizard substitute but ...... I digress) as the are cheap wound wise if under that type of comp are useful to throw forward as well yes they will die but they just need to get those units taking battleshock tests and eventually the numbers will diminish enough for the heavy infantry to engage and mop up.

Bum Rush still best option and a heavy gun line still poses us elves a problem as it has always done if we don't get the run of the luck


Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:38 pm
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Killerk wrote:
Sangfroid wrote:
Shooting is a tactic and so we need to devise a counter for it if faced with it but its not got the same range as in previous whfb, also if faced with a shooting focused army (so not to good in melee) so for me it's simple deploy the same tactic you would have done a month ago when faced with a dwarf gun line or woodie avoidance list: bum rush


That is WFB talk. Shooters are just a deadly, in combat, don't forget they can shoot you while you are in combat with them, and then they get to fight. They still hit and wound on 4+. So not to be considered as weak.

...


I agree shooters are way improved, some loss of range vs ability to shoot into or out of combat is a big advantage, check out razordons, they have seriously nasty shooting and are nasty in close combat as well, no relief. It was obvious in 8th that you bum rush shooters because they generally weren't strong in combat and it immediately neutralized their shooting once you were in combat. Now that simply doesn't exist. Furthermore, there are no penalties to hit for shooting, previously you could use terrain and screening units, that's basically gone.


Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:24 pm
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Sangfroid wrote:
Killerk wrote:
Sangfroid wrote:
Shooting is a tactic and so we need to devise a counter for it if faced with it but its not got the same range as in previous whfb, also if faced with a shooting focused army (so not to good in melee) so for me it's simple deploy the same tactic you would have done a month ago when faced with a dwarf gun line or woodie avoidance list: bum rush


That is WFB talk. Shooters are just a deadly, in combat, don't forget they can shoot you while you are in combat with them, and then they get to fight. They still hit and wound on 4+. So not to be considered as weak.
Killerk wrote:

Yes you are right there, but that first charge and subsequent combat is the clincher you should be able to tear a hole in them and force some losses by battleshock so their effectiveness diminishes, it's certainly harder than it was in WHFB where you could simultaneously protect a unit by charging and also negate the fire from a unit by charging it..... but it's the way to deal with it and synergys well with a druchii exiles list of dark riders, warlocks, shades, dragon lord, etc... Even our infantry can move pretty sharpish and a lucky double phase will see them engage turn two.... But the fast cav remain the stronger choice especially as they can shoot magic into combats themselves and have a good level of attacks per model. Our dark riders move as far as flyin units it's not to be underestimated plus have 3 attacks in shooting and 3 in combat and a 30 inch shoot range and realistic 21 inch charge range on average.

In fact our flying coldones (you know that's the only think I absolutely hate about AoS either have peg guys or don't, not some stupid flying lizard substitute but ...... I digress) as the are cheap wound wise if under that type of comp are useful to throw forward as well yes they will die but they just need to get those units taking battleshock tests and eventually the numbers will diminish enough for the heavy infantry to engage and mop up.

Bum Rush still best option and a heavy gun line still poses us elves a problem as it has always done if we don't get the run of the luck


The problem with dark riders and cold ones, is that their foot print is large, BG have a small base and 2" attack range, you can pile in a whole bunch of them, and dice off any opponent. AoS favours rolling dice, he who rolls more wins, and PtW for he victory.

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Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:30 am
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So, shooters are said to be the new hype.

Let’s mathammer that.

Let’s consider the following scenario:
Melee unit moves towards shooter. Shooter moves and positions just in range.
Our shooters shoot at 16”. If lucky (1/2), they will shoot twice.
Melee unit will try to move and charge. When you charge with a musician, roll 2 dice – reroll one die if you wish (obviously if the distance was not enough).
12”: 7.4% chances to make a charge at this distance.
11”: 19.9% etc…
10”: 35.6% = chances to move and charge at 16” with M6 (most infantry)
9”: 52.3% = chances to move and charge at 16” with M7 (WE)
8”: 68.1%
7”: 80.6%
6”: 89.4% = chances to move and charge at 16” with M10 (COK)
5”: 94.9%
4”: 98.1%
3”: move and already in cc with M14 (warlocks, DR).

Most infantry will have 1/3 chances to move and charge that distance, WE will have a good ½ chance.
COK will have nearly 9/10 chances to cover the distance, and DS are certain to charge.

If ever infantry did not make it, next turn, they have 50% chances to move first, then the distance is 6” less, i.e. near certainty to charge.
This makes a total of 67.2% chances to complete the charge after being shot at, for M6 infantry, and 76% for WE. If 67% is not enough for you, charge with 2 units and make it 89.3%.

Conclusion at this stage:
when shooting at 16”, the shooting range is covered most of the time by a charging infantry before another volley can be fired.

-=-=-

I’d like to compare now a unit of 100 shooters to a unit of 100 CC fighters.
Is it better to take 100 shades or 100 BG?

100 shades position at 16” of 100 BG. They shoot 200 shots, 100 hit, 50 wound, 25 BG don’t save.
Shades have 50% chances to get next turn and kill 25 more BG. I assume immunity to battleshock thanks to general.
Then it is time for the BG to charge. They have 67% chances to complete it in one or two turns before being shot once/twice more.
Each BG will kill in average .88 shade. The remaining 75 will kill 67 shades, or 50 BG will kill 44 shades.
Each shade kills .25 BG. 33 shades will kill 8 BG, or 56 shades will kill 14 BG.

At this stage, here are the chances:
33% BG shot once, charge => remain 100-25-8=67 BG, vs 100-67=33 shades, all engaged.
33% BG shot twice, charge => remain 100-25-25-14=36 BG, vs 100-44=56 shades, all engaged.
17% BG shot once, didn’t charge => remain 100-25=75 BG, vs 100 shades.
17% BG shot twice, didn’t charge => remain 100-25-25=50 BG vs 100 shades
In average, there remain 55 BG. In average, there remain 63 shades.

It appears that shades are indeed slightly advantaged.
However, in the following turn, the distance is shorter. Let’s imagine quickly the following turns (I don’t do the maths):
First 33%, you’d expect BG to kill remaining shades and 50 BG to survive.
Second 33%, you’d expect shades and BG to kill each other.
First 17%, you’d expect a similar massacre of both BG and shades.
Last 17%, you’d expect all BG to die, all shades to survive.
Finally, over the course of many games, the performance of shades and BG will be comparable.

The advantage of elite shooters vs elite melee is really not obvious, thanks to small range compared to good charge distance, and thanks to the mechanics of chosing randomly who starts the turn.

-=-=-

Now, what if I take faster units?
DR move 14” and shoot at 16”, each DR will kill 0.21 COK, less than shades vs BG.
COK move 10” and has 89% to complete the charge in 1 turn. On the charge, each COK will kill .95 DR!
Obviously, a fast and strong melee unit fears not a fast shooting unit.

-=-=-

Conclusion:
There is a careful balance between shooter’s range and infantry’s charge range.
Heavy cavalry has an easy game vs shooters.

My mathammer shows that you'd be better off taking heavy cavalry than shooters.
Any objection? My maths are far from perfect, I just hope they are not off by too much.
Any live experience?

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Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:35 am
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