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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2040/690078.page

So here you all go. Lets talk about it.

What I think is interesting that the unit size for Black Guards and Executioner are mined at 10 and not five like on the war scrolls. Also the new Tree-kin models look good.

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:01 am
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Ehh... kinda annoying, actually. I've just built a unit of 15 Black Guard, but now I have to either only use 10 of them or get another 5. :evil:

Another annoyance. If I want to field a combined Dark Elf force rather than a half-baked not-really-a-viable-army from just one subfaction, then my only Battleline units are Darkshards. I mean, seriously? Out of my Dark Riders, Corsairs and Witch Elves, I'd have thought at least one of those would be default Battleline, but no. We're still better off than High Elves, of course, who (AFAIK) don't have any Battleline units at all unless they go single-subfaction.

But if I wanted to (for example) field a mainly Scourge Corsairs force, but include a single unit of Dark Riders or Witch Elves, or a lone Sorceress, I cannot do that under these rules. Suddenly my Corsairs stop being Battleline units, so I now also need to field 2+ units of Darkshards. Likewise, if I want to field a DoK force, then all my cavalry need to be Warlocks and not Dark Riders, even though I have loads of Dark Rider models and no Warlock models (because I hate the Warlock models). Otherwise my Witch Elves stop being Battleline and, again, I need to cram at least 2 units of Darkshards in there.

Dark Riders becoming Battleline in an army that consists entirely of Dark Riders and Assassins is particularly stupid. Who is ever going to actually field that? At least Daughters of Khaine and Scourge Corsairs are just about viable without any out-of-subfaction support (although Scourge Corsairs suffer from a lack of any protection from enemy spellcasting).

I can see gaming groups using the points values but ignoring the other restrictions. Honestly, the Battleline units designations look like a bit of a mess.

Some of the points costs seems strange, too. Are Executioners really better than Black Guard? Is a Fleetmaster really only worth half a Sorceress? :?

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:57 am
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Shadowspite wrote:
Are Executioners really better than Black Guard? Is a Fleetmaster really only worth half a Sorceress? :?


Yes. Comparing SCGT, Pool comp and a local game store comp, I found that Executioners are generally more expensive than Black Guard. The Fleetmaster varies in price, between 20%-50% cheaper than the Sorceress.

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:22 am
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Shadowspite wrote:
Ehh... kinda annoying, actually. I've just built a unit of 15 Black Guard, but now I have to either only use 10 of them or get another 5. :evil:

Another annoyance. If I want to field a combined Dark Elf force rather than a half-baked not-really-a-viable-army from just one subfaction, then my only Battleline units are Darkshards. I mean, seriously? Out of my Dark Riders, Corsairs and Witch Elves, I'd have thought at least one of those would be default Battleline, but no. We're still better off than High Elves, of course, who (AFAIK) don't have any Battleline units at all unless they go single-subfaction.

But if I wanted to (for example) field a mainly Scourge Corsairs force, but include a single unit of Dark Riders or Witch Elves, or a lone Sorceress, I cannot do that under these rules. Suddenly my Corsairs stop being Battleline units, so I now also need to field 2+ units of Darkshards. Likewise, if I want to field a DoK force, then all my cavalry need to be Warlocks and not Dark Riders, even though I have loads of Dark Rider models and no Warlock models (because I hate the Warlock models). Otherwise my Witch Elves stop being Battleline and, again, I need to cram at least 2 units of Darkshards in there.

Dark Riders becoming Battleline in an army that consists entirely of Dark Riders and Assassins is particularly stupid. Who is ever going to actually field that? At least Daughters of Khaine and Scourge Corsairs are just about viable without any out-of-subfaction support (although Scourge Corsairs suffer from a lack of any protection from enemy spellcasting).

I can see gaming groups using the points values but ignoring the other restrictions. Honestly, the Battleline units designations look like a bit of a mess.

Some of the points costs seems strange, too. Are Executioners really better than Black Guard? Is a Fleetmaster really only worth half a Sorceress? :?


This pretty much sums up my feelings and I don't even use Corsairs, I use the thrall warhost, but when I was looking at with a mate we basically came up with the conclusion that Stormcast and Seraphon are pretty much the way to go if you want to keep a not mixed group, and if you want to mix it up, then just use Liberators or Saurs Warriors cause all the other battleline units are kinda....meh.

I would say that I am a fan how it is more pool that pts, but still it's pretty crazy unless the Aevles are getting some love sometime in the future. At this point I'd like to see a single shared Key Word for all Aelves and give us a reason to cross mix them, cause without it, I think as a whole they are a bit underwhelming.

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:45 am
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Daeron wrote:
Yes. Comparing SCGT, Pool comp and a local game store comp, I found that Executioners are generally more expensive than Black Guard. The Fleetmaster varies in price, between 20%-50% cheaper than the Sorceress.


A one-in-six chance of doing 2 mortal wounds instead of 1 normal damage outweighs +1 Bravery, +1" Range, -1 Rend and rerolling to hit rolls of 1? Have you run the numbers on this, Daeron, or is this just argumentum ad populum?

I won't argue the Fleetmaster vs. Sorceress case, though. Honestly, comparing a fighty hero to a wizard was silly of me anyway. 40 points just seemed absurdly cheap for someone with five attacks, three of them rerollable. Looking at the leaked photos, the Fleetmaster seems to be the cheapest hero in the game, with all others bar the (extremely fragile) Death Hag being at least twice his points cost.

Also on the subject of odd points values, I see Dreadspears are cheaper than Bleakswords. But I seem to recall you doing a comparison on them a while back that indicated they were pretty much equal. And that was before Quicksilver Strike got nerfed (the extra attacks don't themselves trigger extra attacks any more). Am I misremembering?

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:56 am
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You remember correctly. I'm not switching my stance completely, but the odds are tipped in favour of Bleakswords and Executioners. I think I pointed that out in previous topics as well.

For the comparison of BGs and Executioners... it kind of depends on how you look at it.
I haven't actually fielded either, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. From my AoS games, though, I've come to appreciate two things in particular:
- The ability to tackle high armour saves
- The ability to squeeze a lot of killing power on a small footprint
The Executioners are slightly better at both. Let's compare 10 Executioners with 10 Black Guards vs 4+ AS.

The black guards:
Image

The executioners:
Image

Based on the average score, you'd need to get 44.7% more BGs in combat, to get the same kill score. The 1" range does help with that, mind. But it's probably easier to squeeze 10 models in 2 ranks into combat than 15, in 3 ranks. So I'm convinced that Executioners are easier and probably more effective in a variety of circumstances. There are a few situations where BGs get the upper hand, such as lower save targets in open fields. But it's often a tough target in a tight spot that makes or breaks the game in my experience.
I might still field BG's for the style but the cheaper points do help them to compensate for the ease of Executioners.
The comparison tilts further in favour of the Executioners if the save of the opponent goes up. Say.. against 3+ targets or better. I've encountered those a few times :S

The Executioners and the BG's only differ 10% in cost (18ppm vs 20 ppm). That's smaller than some popular comp systems gave them. A bigger difference would have played more to their performance.

I wasn't aware that Quicksilver Strike can no longer proc another Quicksilver Strike. I don't see it on the scroll, or the FAQ. What's the reason to assume it can't reproc?
I'll redo the comparison if needed.

Assuming it can reproc, then the Bleakswords vs Dreadspears concludes a similar thing to BGs vs Exes. If the Dreadspears moved, they don't get +1 and the Bleakswords win. If they didn't move, then the Bleakswords are easily 20% more effective. The extra range on the Dreadspears should make it fairly easy to get 20% more models into the fight, provided you have the space. So I'd argue that Bleakswords are easier, and more effective in a variety of situations. Dreadspears are better in a larger area, in larger numbers, and without moving.. needing all of those 3 conditions.
I'd still field dreadspears "for style", but again these points benefit them and help them being fielded in bigger units.
I didn't find the points on the Corsairs or Fleetmaster so I can't comment on that.

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:06 pm
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The reproc rule is in the General's Handbook, part of the three rules of One and it is only supposed to be for Match Play if I understand it right. So in Narrative and Open Bleakswords would be able to stack 6' from Quicksliver Strike.

I also agree with your numbers and reasons for Black Guard vs Executioners. That said though I'm starting to wonder about the thrall Warhost and if every Dark Aelf list is just supposed to field that and then one of the other factions or if it just supposed to max out a faction. But I have so questions on that.

If you look at the DoK BloodWrack Sister Hood. Its 1 CoB, 1 Meduase or BS, Death Hag, 3-6 units of SoS, Witch Elves , or Doomfire Warlocks. Now does this min max mean that I have to min of 10 models and max of 30 models in my army or does it mean that I can have a min of 10 and a max 40 in each unit. Cause that is a really huge price creep. At the basic level for that Warhost its 960pts and would cost US$230 if you wanted to get to 2000pts so add 10 more Doomfire Warlocks, 20 more SoS and another 20 WE, that's and added US$310. I think added all of that right, but any way wow, US$540.

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:09 pm
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Daeron wrote:
Based on the average score, you'd need to get 44.7% more BGs in combat, to get the same kill score.

Wow, that's a much bigger difference in damage output than I'd assumed. I think I'd been thinking of the Executioners' ability as just double damage on a 6, but of course mortal wounds also ignore armour saves...

So, basically, if I'm fielding BG, I should probably take advantage of the lower points cost and field a nice, big unit so that the extra range of their halberds actually helps them. Whereas Executioners are probably best fielded in minimum-size units. Maybe?

Quote:
I wasn't aware that Quicksilver Strike can no longer proc another Quicksilver Strike. I don't see it on the scroll, or the FAQ. What's the reason to assume it can't reproc?

The 'Third Rule of One':
Image
As Phox532 said, it's only for Matched Play battles, but if you're not playing Matched Play then you're not using points anyway, so...

Quote:
I didn't find the points on the Corsairs or Fleetmaster so I can't comment on that.

Image

Phox532 wrote:
Now does this min max mean that I have to min of 10 models and max of 30 models in my army or does it mean that I can have a min of 10 and a max 40 in each unit.

The max/min numbers are per unit.

Quote:
At the basic level for that Warhost its 960pts

You can do it for 860 points:

Cauldron 220
Medusa on foot 120
Death Hag on foot 60
10 Witch Aelves 140
10 Witch Aelves 140
10 Witch Aelves 140
Battalion Warscroll 40

That gives you 2 Leaders, 1 Behemoth and 3 Battleline units (as long as you don't take any non-DoK units), which is legal for anything up to 2000 points total IIRC. You can bulk one of the WE units up to 20 and you have a nice round 1000 points total.

Quite expensive in terms of real-world money, though. But that's mainly because Witch Aelves are extortionately priced.

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:30 pm
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Shadowspite wrote:

Quite expensive in terms of real-world money, though. But that's mainly because Witch Aelves are extortionately priced.


I know, right? Like it seems pretty brutal. I would be pretty interested to see the damage out put between a 1000pts DoK:Bloodwrack Sisterhood vs the Seraphon or Stormcast 1000pt Warhost.

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:21 pm
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Because clearly We are still not in the throws of a Resession, even if its the tail end of one, and Great Britton leaving the EU is not going to cause a financial panic.

Clearly GW has its head in the right place ;)

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Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:21 am
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Saintofm wrote:
Clearly GW has its head in the right place

...to perform an auto-colonoscopy. Because monitoring your bowel health is important! ;)

A box of 10 Witch Aelves costs the same as a box of 10 Chaos Knights. Just let that sink in for a minute. I know some people think GW prices models according to how powerful they are in-game, but that's obviously not the case (10 Chaos Knights = 400pts; 10 Witch Aelves = 140pts).

Sisters of Avelorn the Watch cost more than Phoenix Guard or Chaos Warriors. Sisters of the Thorn cost more than Dark Riders... Wait a minute... I think I now understand GW's pricing model. It's a boob tax! They're charging a premium for female models. That's it! That's literally the only explanation that makes sense. :P

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Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:58 am
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It's quite remarkable to see the argument of "the cost of an army" pop up as soon as points are introduced by GW. I thought they introduced those at the request of the community.

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Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:11 am
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Daeron wrote:
It's quite remarkable to see the argument of "the cost of an army" pop up as soon as points are introduced by GW. I thought they introduced those at the request of the community.

I'm not sure what you're taking issue with here. It sounds like you're accusing somebody of hypocrisy. :?

For the record, I welcome the addition of points to AoS. That doesn't mean I'm 100% happy with the specifics of how they're being implemented. And it certainly doesn't mean I'm happy with GW prices.

Also, my last post was not meant to be taken at all seriously.

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Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:05 am
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Shadowspite wrote:
I'm not sure what you're taking issue with here. It sounds like you're accusing somebody of hypocrisy. :?


Dear no.. Certainly not! And even less so at anyone directly :)
I'm sorry if it came across that way, because that wasn't my intention. I just look at the pattern, and couldn't help but notice the irony. Trying to look at it from a GW perspective, it must be confusing:
Customers - "Ohh, an army is so expensive! At least X euros before you even have a legal army! And I can't even play with the models I like the most!"
GW - "Okay, here's a game with no restrictions, buy and play whatever you want, with how much you want."
Customers - "But we want points and army structure!"
GW - "Okay, here's a point system."
Customers - "Ohh, an army is so expensive! At least X euros before you even have a decent army."

As a customer, we have the right to complain about anything we want. But... from a distance... it's a little amusing :)

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Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:16 am
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Daeron wrote:
It's quite remarkable to see the argument of "the cost of an army" pop up as soon as points are introduced by GW. I thought they introduced those at the request of the community.


I want to say that I am not a fan of the points nor did I want them, but seeing how my local group here China is myself and three others I am being forced to use the points cause the "leader" "Knows more about this than you(me) ever will cause I have played since 7th edition and points are the only way to balance".

That said now that they points are here, I want to remain competitive in my gaming group, but with me current WarHost I don't know if I will. Also looking back at it, I am doing a fair amount of Fear mongering here, cause maybe 10 Saurs Warriors is equal to 10 Bleakswords, and the SCGT had 10 Bleakswords costing more than Saurs Warriors, but what is upsetting to me at least is I feel that I don't have the same control over my army in what I can bring and what Warhost I want to use. So I'm kind of being a Debie Downer about that.

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Daeron wrote:
As a customer, we have the right to complain about anything we want. But... from a distance... it's a little amusing :)

OK, well I agree with you then. :) There is some irony. But different people want different things, and will complain about different things. I think GW understands that, which is why the Matched Play system is just one of the three playstyles they're supporting.

Anyway, as much as I like to complain about GW's pricing, you can field a legal AoS Matched Play army with two regiment boxes and a character model, which for most factions you can do for £40-£50 RRP (or £30-£40 if you're smart). That's not so bad.

Although, rather annoyingly, half the Start Collecting boxes are not legal Matched Play armies because they don't have two Battleline units.

Hmm... has anyone considered, instead of both players trying to build equal-points forces with proper force org, just deploy what you like (as in the basic rules) but then tot up the points costs of both armies and let the player with the lower points total pick a sudden death objective? Sort of a hybrid of Matched Play and Free Play, where you can field what you like and still be sure of a reasonably balanced game.

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Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:24 pm
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Shadowspite wrote:
Hmm... has anyone considered, instead of both players trying to build equal-points forces with proper force org, just deploy what you like (as in the basic rules) but then tot up the points costs of both armies and let the player with the lower points total pick a sudden death objective? Sort of a hybrid of Matched Play and Free Play, where you can field what you like and still be sure of a reasonably balanced game.


I think one could argue that is what comping by wounds was? I don't know maybe not. But also if you are using the scenarios for match play do the sudden death objective work? I would also like to say that what you describe is very much like what Open play is/was in my opinion.

I was talking to a mate yesterday and he was saying that he felt the whole thing was inflated. He brought his old 8th Ed points book to China and built a 500 pts Lizardman army that was only around 50 models give or take, and then he added the points based on the leaked photos and it was 1100 points. Has anyone else seen this? Is there a huge difference of points between the old and the new system.

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Phox532 wrote:
I think one could argue that is what comping by wounds was?

Well, except that using points might actually work. Comparing wounds was a very poor balancing mechanism. And comparing number of models - as was the default method of determining who got to choose sudden death - was literally worse than no balancing mechanism at all.

Quote:
Is there a huge difference of points between the old and the new system.

I should certainly hope that's the case! Part of the reason for AoS (as opposed to just another edition of WHFB) was to reduce the number of models you need for a playable army. GW realised that one of the major reasons WHFB was failing was that their core customers just couldn't afford the money, time and effort to get a playable army together.

A 13 year old kid is not going to get into a game where he needs to sink around £200 and assemble and paint 50-100 models before he can actually play. GW finally figured that out, thankfully.

So 1000 points is going to produce a much smaller group of models in AoS than it would in WHFB. That's by design.

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Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:38 am
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Shadowspite wrote:

A 13 year old kid is not going to get into a game where he needs to sink around £200 and assemble and paint 50-100 models before he can actually play. GW finally figured that out, thankfully.

So 1000 points is going to produce a much smaller group of models in AoS than it would in WHFB. That's by design.


I will concede that is it probably by design, but a 1,000 points is still up around $150-$200, which if I was still 13 and not a grown man with a job, I'd be like my old 13 year old self and buy 3-4 PS4 games. I think the high inflation of points to models is based off of a old system nostalgia of "YAY" big numbers rather than creating a system in which people could easily understand. I think the SCGT did a pretty good job of this, where with the large numbers it bring up ideas of the past system.

I was also looking at the allegiance traits and wonders if they are stackable, Like if my whole army shares key words do I get traits for that. Like if it shares, Order, Aelf and DoK does that mean I'm getting three traits? I was watching MCGamer Unlocking Generals Handbook and they were suggesting that could be the case.

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Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:15 am
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I was also looking at the Start collecting boxes and I think we can safely assume that Scourge Privateers are the most likely to get a Start Collecting set. It's the closest to other get starting kits that have a leader, monster, light infantry and other, And it also rounds out around just under 1000 pts. So I think its going to entry faction for Aevles.

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Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:43 am
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Phox532 wrote:
I was also looking at the allegiance traits and wonders if they are stackable, Like if my whole army shares key words do I get traits for that. Like if it shares, Order, Aelf and DoK does that mean I'm getting three traits? I was watching MCGamer Unlocking Generals Handbook and they were suggesting that could be the case.

My understanding is that you must choose one set of traits. At the moment, though, that's only relevant to the Sylvaneth, as they're the only subfaction with their own traits right now.

Traits and bonus Battleline units are separate, though, I think. So a Scourge Privateers force can have Corsairs as Battleline but still use the Order command traits, magic items, etc.

Quote:
Scourge Privateers are the most likely to get a Start Collecting set.

Daughters of Khaine is the other possibility, I think. And that would be preferable, as it would give the opportunity to get the plastic Witch Elves for a more sensible price. The Corsairs box is already quite cheap, so there's less opportunity for a decent saving there.

EDIT: The Start Collecting boxes work out to around £80 of stuff for £50. Slaves to Darkness is only £70 of stuff, but that's the outlier.

A possible Daughters of Khaine box could be:
1 Cauldron of Blood
1 Death Hag (from CoB)
1 Medusa (from CoB)
10 Witch Aelves
= £80

For Scourge Privateers:
1 Fleetmaster
1 Kharibdyss
10 Corsairs with 2 hand weapons
1 Scourgerunner Chariot
= £92.50
10 Corsairs with handbows
= £83

Ten Corsairs and a Scourgerunner might look better, but that works out at £92.50, which just seems too generous.


EDIT2: Scratch that. The Daemons of Khorne box is worth £103, so 10 Corsairs and a Scourgerunner is probably more likely. The value of the stuff in the Start Collecting boxes varies a lot more than I thought (and StD isn't an outlier - the Greenskinz and Malignants boxes are also around £70 worth of stuff).

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Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:40 am
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[quote="Shadowspite"


A possible Daughters of Khaine box could be:
1 Cauldron of Blood
1 Death Hag (from CoB)
1 Medusa (from CoB)
10 Witch Aelves
= £80

[/quote]

I forget that CoB have already have three models in one box for that set, But yea looking at it could work as start collecting. Just wondering though, How many points would that be in the new system?

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Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:47 am
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Phox532 wrote:
How many points would that be in the new system?

540 plus whatever the battalion warscroll costs.

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Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:58 am
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 8:38 am
Posts: 96
Shadowspite wrote:
Ehh... kinda annoying, actually. I've just built a unit of 15 Black Guard, but now I have to either only use 10 of them or get another 5. :evil:

Another annoyance. If I want to field a combined Dark Elf force rather than a half-baked not-really-a-viable-army from just one subfaction, then my only Battleline units are Darkshards. I mean, seriously? Out of my Dark Riders, Corsairs and Witch Elves, I'd have thought at least one of those would be default Battleline, but no. We're still better off than High Elves, of course, who (AFAIK) don't have any Battleline units at all unless they go single-subfaction.

But if I wanted to (for example) field a mainly Scourge Corsairs force, but include a single unit of Dark Riders or Witch Elves, or a lone Sorceress, I cannot do that under these rules. Suddenly my Corsairs stop being Battleline units, so I now also need to field 2+ units of Darkshards. Likewise, if I want to field a DoK force, then all my cavalry need to be Warlocks and not Dark Riders, even though I have loads of Dark Rider models and no Warlock models (because I hate the Warlock models). Otherwise my Witch Elves stop being Battleline and, again, I need to cram at least 2 units of Darkshards in there.

Dark Riders becoming Battleline in an army that consists entirely of Dark Riders and Assassins is particularly stupid. Who is ever going to actually field that? At least Daughters of Khaine and Scourge Corsairs are just about viable without any out-of-subfaction support (although Scourge Corsairs suffer from a lack of any protection from enemy spellcasting).

I can see gaming groups using the points values but ignoring the other restrictions.


The General's Handbook specifically offers that option. It's called 'Points Only': You use the points costs to limit armies, but ignore the restrictions on Battleline, Behemoths, and so on.


Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:13 am
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Bronze Khaine Winner
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Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:32 pm
Posts: 1413
Location: The black ark Arhathalau
Barking Agatha wrote:
The General's Handbook specifically offers that option. It's called 'Points Only': You use the points costs to limit armies, but ignore the restrictions on Battleline, Behemoths, and so on.

Oh, OK. That makes sense then. :D

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Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:36 pm
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