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Got my first unit of Night Gobbos today! 
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Noble
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Heh, this may be an inappropriate forum/topic, but I'm sure by now you are all used to my mad utterances, and this is one of the few places I can get flame-free advice!

Night Gobbos are ugly little beggars, and their WS 2 is a little scary if they every have to face anything WS 5 or above, as they will only hit on "5'," so I just have to keep them away from the Chaos Warriors :) . Then again, 2 points for a trooper with hand weapon and shield is a darn good deal, so I'm not complaining.

Anyhow, the army I plan on making is going to be very different from my Dark Elf army. I plan to base it on infantry, figuring that if I can get enough Orc regiments across the board, I should be able to beat up whoever is on the other side. So, instead of my light, quick, Dark Elves, I will have the slow, plodding Orcs. Basing the army around infantry also allows me to take maximum advantage of the cheapness of my troops. Sounds good so far, eh?

The infantry army has three main challenges facing it, since it typically dominates the HtH phase: being outmaneuvered, being ruined by magic, or being ruined by shooting (or any mix of the above.) Naturally I am going to be advantaged in having plenty of boyz to soak hits and I shouldn't have to worry too much about flank attacks either, with the size of my army, but I still have to worry about an opponent using his magic/missiles to shoot up the best part of my army or my opponent using his heavy cav to break through the weak part of it.

So, my original idea with the Night Goblins was to stretch them in a single rank across the front of my infantry to absorb spells and missiles, and also to release fanatics if enemy heavy cav came too near. Now, I am seeing that it is really too expensive to do both (Fanatics are 25 points apiece), so I plan to make the Night Goblins into a genuine regiment and just keep them around where I think the enemy heavy cav might come. I'll use common Goblins as a missile soak, if I need to, and the Orc armory has plenty of nice anti-magic items so I don't think I need to worry about magic so much.

So, what do you think so far?

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Baron DeSade


Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:20 am
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It dosn't look like it will be flame free for much longer.

Don't forget you can also get all those new types of gobbos in Chronicles 2003
Fire kobold's,Troglagob's, Hill goblin's, Dust goblin's(goblins that cause fear?!?)

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Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:37 am
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Noble
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I was glancing at those a while ago. Unfortunately, they are still "need opponent's permission," even though they are in the new annual. Also, most of them seem pretty expensive, which seems contrary to the whole purpose of a Goblin, to my mind!

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Baron DeSade


Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:50 am
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Make sure its at least 30-40 gobbos strong. Also with Ld5 you'll be failing most tests. These gits need to have a leader. The best I have found so far is putting a unit of these on each side of a unit of black orcs, or in front of the black orcs. This controls animosity and Ld problems quite well.

Surprisingly enough the netters work quite well for thier price since you get to use them against whoever charges you. Take some of those for the front rank. Also fanatics are hardly the panacea. Sure they are great against heavy cavalry, if they hit, but if a smart enemy plays against you he can coax them out using flyers, skimishers on round 1! Which means you'll be most likely to get hit by your own fanatics! DE are actually the worst opponent to face with these buggers and thus the only solution is many night gobbo units with fanatics (expensive) or many units and hide which one has the fanatics (not easy to do for long). So in other words don't bring fanatics against DE or anyone else that has cheap flyers.

A good strategy is to use a small unit of night gobbos as a suicide unit with fanatics in them and then chase after a tough enemy unit.

The other thing to use is the banner of waarg (i believe) which will give one of your units M5. I use this on my black orcs. A big black orc unit of 30 is a powerful thing and you need to get that stuck in ASAP. With M5 it won't take long. The two weapon option is generally always best since with S4 you are hitting quite nicely. Beware, though, I have run off many a unit of black orcs with a charge of spearmen and a hydra flanking.

Forests, houses, and other terrain that separates your gits from their leader is your bane. You will lose badly, your boyz will run and your gobbos will be useless. Remember that. Fortunately you can get some nice heroes to put in units to maintain control.

Some of the best spells are the ones that get your units charging in during magic. Use it as often as you can! Getting your units stuck in is a must.

Shooting is to be feared, even though it may not seem so. I have lost enough gits in a round of shooting to have to make tests. Your wolf riders are very vulnerable to this, and will quite often be useless against shooty armies.

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Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:07 am
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Noble
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I plan on having a unit of Black Orcs and a Black Orc Warboss as the center of my army. The Night Goblins will be on one of the flanks, depending on where my opponent puts his heavy cav. No, I don't expect the fanatics to be a panacea, but against certain armies that rely on heavy troops, such as Chaos, I expect them to do quite well. Also, curiously enough, most Skaven opponents I have seen don't typically deploy any skirmish lines in front of their troops, and I really look forwards to seeing a Fanatic rip his way though a tightly packed Skaven formation. Against some armies/opponents, they won't do to much, bu then, they would be broken if they worked so well against everyone, ay?

I'll take your advice about Netters. They are nice looking models anyhow.

I recognize that shooting can be an issue, which is why providing my troops with a missile soak has been one of my top priorities. Goblins are the perfect boyz for this job!

I don't expect any of my weaker regiments to take on the enemy and beat them, but a regiment is very useful for attacking things that aren't regiments, and having more regiments than one's opponent is a good thing for getting flanks. So, another of my priorities is keeping my units cheap.

So why the two weapons on the Black Orcs? It seems to me that the army will already have plenty of attacks, why not give my top unit the high-strength hits of the great axes?

Btw, this thread can be part of the "Know thy Enemy" section for the Orcs and Goblins.

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Baron DeSade


Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:30 am
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First of all the long line of goblins sucks, its too easy for the enemy to break because it has no ranks. Never try it unless using it as a shooting screen.

2 weapon black orcs kick but against most things. Two attacks is better than 1 against most things, as usually you wont be dictating where the black orcs get stuck in. Great weapons are great against heavy cavalry, but two weapon attacks are still better against T3 AS2+ cavalry. Of course against chaos its the other way round.

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Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:03 am
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Goblins need ranks, and so make sure you have them at least 5 deep and at least 6 frontage. Shooting is really there to remove rank bonuses, so watch that your ranks are maintained as you will need it to win combat.

The other thing that works great with a black orc warboss are trolls. Put them in front, they make great missile screens because they can regenerate all wounds inflicted. They can be turned at the last minute to hold your flank so that the blackorcs can charge in. People will not be able to pierce through the trolls and get at your black orc flanks that way.

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Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:59 am
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Netters and clubbers => great fun to use, funny models and surprisingly good.
Squig herds => surprise your opponent by bringing these gumballs to battle. Unreliable, no sure way to get them in combat, but such fun to use.
Boar boyz => when they get to you, you are in for a world of pain. give the hero leading it the pigstickka.
Fanatics => Against smart opponents of no use, as they will bring them out on the wrong side of your army, or even in the midst of your army.
snotling pump wagon => IF it hits you, you have a dead unit. Better as a chariot IMO.

Just a few views on my accumulated knowledge on orcs and gobbo's. Never played them myself, but faced them too often. Only reason i do not play them is that an orc army tends to get VERY expensive. Good luck.

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Sun Dec 01, 2002 11:28 am
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I just remembered what I had in mind originally. My intention is to put as many regiments "downrange" as possible. For most of those, I really don't care if they are any good or not.

The Night Goblins, for example, are only two things to my strategy, a unit with a full rank bonus and a launch bay for Fanatics. In an army that was all Night Goblins, I would want them to be able to fight in HtH, but since I intend to have plenty of Orcs as well, I just don't see the need.

I'm not exactly worried about my opponent's shooting the Goblins. To me, that just means more Orcs make it into HtH. The Goblins don't panic the Orcs, and if I spread the units out Orc, Gobbo, Orc, then I shouldn't have too much in the way of problems with panic. Anyhow, I don't intend to max out on fanatics for these units anyhow. One or two should be enough.

This realization came to me when I was looking at the Night Gobbos and I realized that spears cost an extra point as an upgrade. That's an increase in points of 50% per model! That's like saying Dark Elves can have shields for +5 points! That's terrible! On the other hand, shortbows are dirt cheap at 1 point, but I don't plan on making a defensive army, so that's not so important.

Naturally, the models don't come with hand weapons, so I plan to use some of the leftover Dark Elf spears I have and just cut the ends off to make knives/swords.

So, what I plan to end up with is a unit that people will probably not waste their time shooting (and if they do, nobody cares), definitely won't be trying to charge and wipe out (because of fantaics) and is still perfectly capable of hitting units on the other side of the board and breaking things such as archer lines, chariots which haven't charged, war machines, taking flanks, etc. Theoretically, they might be vulnerable to Terror, but would you drop a Manticore down next to a unit of Night Gobbos with unreleased Fanatics?

Anyhow, the above strategy is one of the reasons that I complain about horde armies so much. A shooting/magic army would be hard pressed to deal enough damage to really hurt this army, and careful placement of units will negate much of the effect of panic on my troops. Once my troops are in range, even the weediest of them will be able to deal with archer lines/ mages without any help at all.

I don't really agree with the idea of using trolls to screen other units. They really aren't that tough--I did a lot of damage to a troll unit once with just rxb's--and heaven forbid the trolls should have to take a panic test. I think that trolls are probably pretty good in HtH, especially against heavy troops like Chaos Knights whom they could vomit on.

I was looking at the list of magic weapons for the Orcs. I like how all of the Orc weapons are single-handed, and none of them make you strike last. Still, I'm not too convinced that any of them are really that much better than a standard great axe. What do you all think?

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Baron DeSade


Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:56 pm
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I started out with orcs and goblins 3 years ago and if theres one unit i will recomend its the boar boyz.

With their boars having strength 5 on the charge they are just too nice.
At just 18 points per model you can easily buy a mob of them. I however prefer to use them in small units and set them on the flank, because the centre is for your big blocks of infantry. They can also carry a banner and I prefer to give them the Bashin' flag of Bork to give them a little reliability. If playing against shooty elves I would give them The Night Banner to make them reach the enemys lines.

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I was looking at the list of magic weapons for the Orcs. I like how all of the Orc weapons are single-handed, and none of them make you strike last. Still, I'm not too convinced that any of them are really that much better than a standard great axe. What do you all think?


Gev' yur boss Porkos Pigstikka ofcorz...

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Sun Dec 01, 2002 7:53 pm
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No flames yet Baron but I'm gonna move you to non-druchii discussion, 'coz we would do it to anyone else who did this. ;)

I would like to wish you good luck with this venture, but hope to see you truely back in the Druchii camp at sometime in the future.

My son plays O & G and has a particularly nasty goblin army which stretches from one side of the board to another! 3 big units of nighties with 3 fanatics each, boar boys ( which rock for him ). I haven't played him yet but he is doing really well with it :mrgreen:


Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:22 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Goblins deserve spears, you'll easily get run off if you bring only hand weapons. The spears are really part of what can make the goblins fearsome from past game experience using my goblins.

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Mon Dec 02, 2002 3:48 am
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I intend to make a larger unit with spears and nets, but I wanted to first see just how cheap I could make a Goblin Regiment. I'm not even going to give these guys a Champion, that's how much I think of them. Besides, a Champion is 8 points, or four times as expensive as a basic trooper! That's like upgrading a Dark Elf to a champion at +40 points! Forget that...

Like I said, though, this unit is just sort of a test bed to see how the list construction rules work. I only expect two things out of it, that it will launch one Fanatic and that it will be able to get across the board and attack something that is not a regiment. I expect that it will be able to fulfill both of these roles quite well for 77 points, which is still less than even the smallest unit of Dark Elf core troops.

I don't intend to go crazy with Fanatics (kind of a play on words, there) as I think that the threat of Fanatics is more effective than the actual damage that they cause. I definitely want a small unit of Squig Herders, though, as they just look absolutely hilarious. Sure, some of this stuff might tear up my own units, but I can afford to take some hits, what with my troops being so cheap and all.

Waaagh!

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Baron DeSade


Mon Dec 02, 2002 3:17 pm
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Well the nice thing about the orc/goblin army is that you can have many styles of play that work. Enjoy.

I have found goblins to be generally good fighters if equiped with spears, large units, and rank bonus. Yes occaisonally are perfect a fodder as well ie: fanatics.

Just remember that your fodder will generally only work a few times against the same opponent before he becomes smart to what you are doing. EI if you only take a small unit of night gobbos in an army of orcs he'll know right away whats in it. If you plunk your night gobbos down right across from the enemy cavalry he'll know whats in it. If you use goblins as shields he'll come up with a way around them.

Thus sometimes its good to keep your goblins as effective as possible for unexpected eventualities. Losing 1 75 point unit is nothing, but losing three or four with nothing in return is losing the game. Thats what I have found anyway with the goblins.

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Mon Dec 02, 2002 8:11 pm
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Of course, one must look at things from the 'whole army' concept. I plan on having a couple of Dead 'ard infantry units; one unit of Black Orcs led by a BO Warboss and a unit of Bigguns led by a Orc Big Boss BSB. Naturally, then, I need to be on the lookout for heavy cav and shooting directed at these units. So, having my Night Gobbos around shields them from shooting if need be, and can spit out a Fanatic or two to make enemy heavy cav keep their distance. Of course, no plan is perfect, but I think that this one is pretty good.

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Baron DeSade


Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:56 am
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I noticed that you plan on taking both a black orc and a big 'uns unit. Don't take both. They'll soak up too many points. The point of being a horde is to be a horde. I personally like using the big 'uns (as I'm part of the purist O&G camp, black orcs don't truely fit...) But big 'uns with spear, shield, and LA are only 10 pts apiece (I believe). The black orcs are even more expensive than these boyz are. I wouldn't pay the points were I you. Also, while the BO warboss is a great leader, its always about quantity over quality. You'll be wanting those extra hero slots for more heroes (dirt cheep heroes I might add...) On the note of heroes make sure you take the points for a BSB. You may have rarely had the chance to use one with DE, but in an O&G force, it is imperitive that you have one. Otherwise, one bad round of combat may send your boyz packing. Another note is that Goblin artilary is great, and cheep. 35 pts for a spear chukka, 70 for a rock lobba, 80 for the doom diver. The Giant is a much better rare choice than the trolls are though. With his extreamly effective attacks, and ld 10 stubborn, terror and a number of other bonus's he's a really good choice (just watch that he doesn't get shot...) On your question of great weapons, most of the magic weapons just don't quite compare to the benifits of 6 str. You'll be attacking last much of the time anyway, so its no real worry. Boar Chariots are dead hard special choices. The t5 4+ save is really good as long as you aren't facing cannons or the like. Alternately, you can take wolf chariots, which die much much faster due to less toughness, lower armour save, and lower wounds. Boar boyz are a good buy, just make sure they get stuck in. Also, O&G magic is great. The double doin do das are a great item for any shaman, as once the boyz get stuck in, they start generating extra magic dice. This can get nasty for people who don't expect you to have that many dice. Uh, thats all for now. A nicely disorganized response that rambles from topic to topic...

Random Lord

P.S. Black Orcs don't belong in an O&G army. They're the antithesis of what the list is about, chaos (and not the ultimate evil kind, but the run of the mill random type). Its their chaotic nature that makes them fun to play even when you get massacred...


Tue Dec 03, 2002 3:47 am
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Ok, some good thoughts, and yes, I do want to keep the hordy, horde, hordiness of the army, but I still want some hard-hitting units when I get to the other side of the board.

So, you have a natural predjudice against Black Orcs, fine. I've seen that a few times before. I didn't really pick them because they quell animosity, but because the Warboss has LD9, which I really want, and it seems fitting to give him a retinue of Black Orcs to lead. I don't really worry too much about the extra hero slot, as I think that a BO Warboss is still cheaper than a Warboss and a Big Boss, but maybe you are right. One thing that is important to me is the theme of the army I'm creating, and the BO are a little bit outside of theme. I can tell just from reading some other posts too that there are a lot of people who don't like them much either, as they are not 'Orcy' enough. Big Un's are still a good bodyguard, and an Orc Warboss is still a good leader. This also allows me to not make protecting the Boss/Bodyguards such a high priority. Why spears and shields for the Big Uns? I was thinking two choppas and that banner that gives them an additional attack once.

Yes, I had already planned on the BSB, with the magic armor that gives him a 1+ save. Orcs are good fighters even without any magical upgrades.

I don't plan to have any missile weapons in the army, and I don't really plan on a Giant either, because of his cost. I haven't decided about cavalry yet. I would like to keep the army just Orcs and Night Goblins if I can. It's a stronger theme that way, I think.

Thanks for the advice!


Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:49 pm
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Uh, that last post was me, but I forgot to log in. (Kicks nearby Goblin)

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Baron DeSade


Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:51 pm
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I like black orcs. Actually I think of big uns as a natural progression of the orciness, a survival of the fittest if you will. Black orcs are the top rung of that ladder. If they were not 0-1 then I would agree with you, but the game rules preserve that idea. I see black orcs as being real orc veterans who have no time for the animosity and cheekiness that drives the lesser boyz, and start inflicting the beatings upon any who get out of hand. I do not see them as particularly intelligent, though, just a little wiser due to past experience.

A cool idea, Baron and one I use, is buying all goblin riders, and goblin chariots as cavalry. They are cheap price wise, and game wise. You can have two goblin chariots for one special slot, which is what most people do. Its a fast chariot (18" charge!) and an excellent flanker. Plus now there are two targets for people with cannons instead of just one, if you know what I mean. Finally the models are cool, and make cool modifications if you want to have a gobbo warboss riding one.

Goblin wolf riders with spears, shields and light armour lose thier fast cavalry status, but do quite alright as far as gobbos go for flankers (can have ranks as well now), plus they move 18" on a charge, what could be better than that except for HE cavalry? Cheap and fast, also great flankers. You can even rank a mob of them up and use some others for the flanker and break most units you charge as they get ranks with light armour and banner! Plus a box of ten is cheap dollars wise. Small groups as fast cav looking for unprotected war machines/wizards sometimes works, but usually I find them crappy as people shoot them to shiz and actually compared to a lot of goblin troops, killing wolf riders can get the opponent some good points. Usually I find that as an orc player, ignoring artillery is the best, as its better to swarm in and sort the artillery out later instead of sending out units that can easily get demolished/chased off without getting you anything back...

One thing a mob of gobbo wolf riders/chariot do well is take out annoying handgunners and other such rot as they can charge in either the first (magic) or second round.

Thus for cavalry goblins should not be overlooked as amusement, fluff and effectiveness sometimes can be combined.

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Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:28 pm
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Why spears and shields for the Big Uns you ask?
I like to take spears and shields because it gives them a little more survivability from shooting (at ten points a model, I, as an orc player, am concerned) Also, if they get charged, or if the combat lasts more than one turn, two ranks of str 4 ws 4 attacks can cause some damage. Also, two ranks of str 4 ws 4 attacks can do alot of damage even to attacking cavalry (though usually not enough :( )
And don't forget to branch into snotlings. Snots are a great asset to the O&G list. they can hold up an entire enemy flank if you take enough of them. Also, normal orc warbosses have ld 9 also, so taking the black orc is just for the added hitty power. (I admit, the extra point of str does tempt me) However, BOs were the creation of the Chaos Dwarves. I want nothing made by a stuntie in my army :evil: Even an eeeevil stuntie...

I wish you luck with your horde, when I start to collect my DE, I'll be sure to seak you out for army comp ideas (your older reports suggest quite a good success rate...)

Random Lord

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Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:33 pm
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I often will use spears on bug uns against a fast army as well. Its nasty.

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Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:42 pm
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First, I want to say "Hi Baron!" because as SnakeEyes has gone down I haven't seen you around in some time and I love reading your stuff. Second, I want to say that I really like Night Goblins. I don't play O&G (I'm a Dwarf, Chaos kind of guy) but I think that you will find O&G suitably challenging and also rewarding for you. You stated in a previous post that you've used light, quick, Dark Elves and are going to be using an Infantry heavy O&G. That alone should provide all the challenge and rewarads you could ever hope for.

As I haven't read the O&G army book in a few weeks and as I don't play them I can't really give you suggestions. Of course, I'm willing to read the book and see what it says. I've never played against O&G so never had to deal with them. As for those odd Goblins in the Chronicles, eventhough they're with opponent's permission only I think you should get a unit of them (pick a type, doesn't matter which one) and keep it on your sideboard. It'd be fun to play friendly games with them and to experiment.

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Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:34 pm
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Posts: 484
Location: Klar Karond
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Hi Arickol!

What did happen to Snakeyes, anyhow?

I did look at the other Goblins, and I think that just about any of them would be a nasty surprise for an opponent. My favorite, I think, is the Fire Kobold, as all I see when I look at the Dust Goblin is the points cost!

I've been using a paint called "Orc Flesh" from Reaper for my Night Goblins, which is a very pale grey-green, which is giving my Gobbos a very cool, ghostly look as their skin contrasts with their dark (Aged Brick Red, also from Reaper) clothes. Reaper also makes a flesh color called "Ghoul Gray" which is darker and I plan on using that for the Orcs, as the book suggests making them a darker color.

I did realize the other day that the Orc Warboss has LD9 too. For me, the jury is still out on whether or not to include Black Orcs, but if I do, I expect that I will make them out of plastic Orcs, given that the metal ones only have 2 hand weapons. I expect that I can just take the most armored looking heads and torsos from the plastic Orc boxes (as I will probably be buying a lot of them) and then group them all together in a unit and paint them a darker skin tone.

Another idea I had was of putting the BSB in a Chariot. Sure, it's kind of a target, but I can still do some hiding of it if I need to, and I think that it would look very, very cool and be very, very Orcy!

You know, I don't really understand why everyone rags on the Choppa so much. To me, it's pretty much the same as a cavalry spear, for free!

Anyhow, I expect that it will be a long, long time before I finish painting the enormous horde I have planned, so I plan on doing some revisions to my Dark Elves in the meantime. Check ouy my recent post on the tactics board about Skaven if you haven't already!

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Baron DeSade


Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:34 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:56 am
Posts: 2261
Location: Flying my manticore 'Bloodmaw', looking for prey.
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Hey Baron, good luck with the army. I'd love to play a greenskin army as well but can't face painting another greenskin army. (Got 40K Orcks)

Since you're playing an infantry army, won't you include a fair bit of artillery? You're going to be slow getting to the other side of the table what with fast cav, animosity and panic etc, so that leaves plenty of time to soften up the enemy with rocklobbers. You could still fit 3 in your army even with the Black Orcs.

Also, I like trolls. You probably have a (quite normal for a DE player) aversion to stupidity but they do soak up fire quite well. Especially stone trolls. Resistant to magic, regenerating and 4 of them give you 12 wounds the enemy have to take. All-in-all, excellent screening troops for your expensive Black Orcs. And when you get close to the enemy, just reform them into a single file to let the orcs charge past.

A shame you're planninng on a BO warboss in some ways. By using a Gt shaman, you could get big waagh spells. Perhaps a boss isn't quite good enough for your plans though...

As for making plastic BO's, what about the bodies of chaos warriors? Right posture, necks in the right place...it probably wouldn't take too much to fit orc arms and heads...

Oh, and aren't 'sizzla's shiny baubles' about the best magic item in the game?

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Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:14 pm
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