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Arquinsiel
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Post by Arquinsiel »

Malevion wrote:Well the inhalation of pot is a very very common thing. And it's a drug that only has consequences if you smoke a large amount over a long period of time. And it is so widely used that the police cannot enforce it properly. Thankfully a few open and forward thinking countries have legalised it(sadly not mine). If pot is illegal then by logic so should alcohol and I have to say the things I've seen drunk people do are far more violent and disreputable than anything a stoned(on pot not other things) person will ever do.
Yup. Which is why I would criminalise alcohol. But no one really wants to be sensible abou$t these things, they're too busy self destructing.

Malevion wrote:And as to taking advantage of drunk girls, this is only rape in extreme circumstances. ie. if shes comad out and you force yourself on her. otherwise it isn't. It might be seen as morally wrong but it definitely isn't rape.
Actualyl if you're under the influence of an intoxicant you don't have legal capacity to contract so it's technically true to say that anyone having sex while drunk is being raped.

Hulkster wrote:I disagree here, never puch too hard because you might push her away, if she says leave me alone then tell he ok that you understand and that she can contact you anytime as soon as she is ready
Aye, there is always that possibility. I'm just very good at getting information out of people without them realising it and generally getting people to talk. It's very rare that you will be made aware of something and not have that person wish to talk about it.
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Lord fear
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Post by Lord fear »

So for those of you who are wondering, I finaaly got around to ask her to the dance. After much thought in class (which btw means i am going to fail my test next week), I thought about all your advice and realized that btiting the bullet was the best idea. but then i realized something. I'm an elf damn it! So i decided to bite the bolt and went for it. As the bell rang, i got up nad said to her "can I ask you a qestion real quick?" I then proceded by asking her "would you like to go to the dance with me?" in French. After a few akwards hours I translated and she said "Sure, btu actually, I really wasn't planning on going becasue i am going to be out of town. Someone else already asked me and had to say no because of that. I'll check my schedue tonight and I'll give you an answer tomorrow".

As it turns out, she is the president of the student body and is the one in charge of organizing the whole damn dance.

But anyways, I figured this can mean a couple things. If the past truly does repeat itsself, then i am in a good position, as when last i asked a girl to the same dance last year she said the exact same thing, and ended up going wiht me. It also means that the other guy tha asked her will have picked someone else to go with.

The other thing it could mean is that she raelly has to be out of town adn that she really can't go to the dance. But what doesn't make sense is that she is organizing the dance but is not going to be here?

I don't get woman.

The possibilities are endless.

What do you think?
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Post by Malevion »

Well mon ami.Sadly, It sounds like she doesn't wanna go with you and hit you with an excuse. Good on you for sacking up and asking though. That takes guts.(Même si il était en français. Que pensiez-vous ;) ?) I may be wrong about this but thats what it seems like to me. Why would she organise the dance then not go herself? You won't know for sure until you're at the dance though I suggest you find some other chick to go with. what about your stoner ex=]?

If it turns out that shes pulled a fast one on you then go to her house at night, kill her pet and nail it to the door. that'l learn her :twisted: Either that or discover who shes going to the dance with kill him, wear his skin and go to the dance with her anyway (note- do not under any circumstances actually do either of these things)

Ironically I too have a dance coming up, in my case the law ball. Must be the season eh?
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Arquinsiel
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Post by Arquinsiel »

Well, leave the pet alone. The other guy can be skinned although I'd probably wear it as a cloak. Mmm... humie skin....
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faerthurir wrote:Arq kicked me in the gyros.
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Post by Belial »

Lord Fear wrote:

I don't get woman.


Who does, really? Well, get them in the sense of understand them, that is.

Cheer up laddie. Find another girl(well, wait at least 'till she tells you whether she can or not) and nevermind.

Oh and about arranging it and not coming: I've just arranged a big... arrangement... and cant ccome either. Nothing strange 'bout that.
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Post by Racheth_the_slayer »

No one can understand girls. They fall out with each other over petty things then you see them the next day hugging each other! Just going back to an earlier mini-conversation if I had a girlfriend who stoned I would dump her. It sounds to me like she was saying she'll think about it not no. She had turned down one person because she can't make it yet she said she will have to check whether she can go.......... You might still have a chance!
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Post by Kreoss »

Well, its not that hard to figure women out. You just have to realise that, instrinsicly, men think differently than women. So while you may think you're promoting you're feelings for her or getting her attention romanticly by being her friend, she may actually see it as just being friendly (as opposed to romanticly), or that you're depandant and insecure.

Point is, if you get turned down... don't get depressed, get confident, and it will help you in the long run.
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Post by Fingol darkwater »

Follow this up by getting two dates to the dance! If she was using an excuse, you'll have won the game. If she really couldn't go, then you'll still win because you have two dates ;)
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Post by Gnosis »

Fingol Darkwater wrote:Follow this up by getting two dates to the dance! If she was using an excuse, you'll have won the game. If she really couldn't go, then you'll still win because you have two dates ;)


I agree, if you can enter there with a woman on either side of you, you own. Done it myself a couple of times, and it's quite fun. Even if it's just for laughs.
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Post by Lord fear »

I give up. Its not worth all the madness i'm going through. I just don't get it. Why would she make up an excuse? When i asked her last year to a dance she just said "I'm sorry, I already have a date" But it pisses me off. I asked her yesterday and she doesn't even seem to act like I did. In class, she didn't say hi and she just got up and went to go work with her freinds during class. I can tell that she is not interested in me.

The question is now however, should I still ask her if she had made up her mind or should I just drop it? I did not ask her today becuase I did not want to prss the issue, but she did not even mention the dance today.

What do you think?


I need to go kill some asur. That always makes me feel better.
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Gnosis
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Post by Gnosis »

Drop it. Drop her. She's simply not worth it if she's being a cunt. Otro y Mejor, is what I say.
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Post by Seralkith »

Turn your back on her and say F*ck it. Forget about asking her. It's unattractive/pathetic if you keep pressing someone for a date when they've said no.
Drop it. Drop her. She's simply not worth it if she's being a cunt.

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Post by Malevion »

yeah drop it dude

If she wanted to go with you she'd bring it up with her herself asking again will achieve nothing except making you look bad.

As to why girls make excuses it's because often they don't like the sense of confrontation that an out and out rejection causes. Most women are intrinsically cowardly and will always avoid facing up to something if they can. Don't worry similar things happen to us all. I once liked a girl who kept leading me on and then brushing me off for about two months. I got sick of the situation and and forced a confrontation and now we don't talk :D It was worth it though. hmm actually that goes against what I just told you before. If it really matters to you and it'd make you feel better then by all means call her to account. Don't expect to be friends afterwards though.

Ahh well it happens. Just find someone else to go with and don't get hung up about her
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Post by Fingol darkwater »

She aint worth it. Just take my previous advice and you'll have a blast at the dance.

I wouldn't go making a scene though. She obviously didn't care enough to own up to you, so calling her out wouldn't really accomplish anything.
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Post by S_serpent »

And still it all depends on the girl, and how we'll never will understand 'em completely.

I think you should get an answer, not by body language, ... but a real answer and as long as you haven't got that, give her a bit of time to think about it though, but I would ask if she already know if she can accompany you to the dance. If she still doesn't know then, or acts in some way so she can accompany you, go and find another girl for the dance. You will have tried, made real effort towards her (=shown you commitment your willing to make to her), and she MUST know that too then, so it'll be her loss then.

But never go beg, again and again and again, but sometimes you'll need to ask a second time too. But your intitled to an answer.
Last edited by S_serpent on Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sulam »

damn... no luck for you mate.
Damnation is right. Find someone else. Not just to 'win', but also to have something else on your mind and stiop thinking about her because as far as I can see, you're pissed off.

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Post by Elros »

Welcome to the frustrating world of teenage girls! Don't worry, things will get better.
But until then, JUST RELAX!!! I know it is easier said than done, but if you just chill for a week or two, everything will settle down.
I'd follow other people's advice and go to the dance with someone else, but do it because you want to go the dance and have a good time, and not just so you can "show up" the other girl.
Chances are the other girl did not lie to you, it's just that she isn't certain what she will do that weekend. She's obviously not "head of heels in love" with you, but you know, things rarely start out that way. If she sees you freak out over this, she will be completely turned off. But if you act normal, you can ask her out for the next dance and you will look all the better.
So don't get too frustrated over this. Women are like trains- if you miss one, there is always another one coming.
BTW, isn't it interesting that no women posted in this thread?
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Post by Archdukechocula »

Malevion wrote:Most women are intrinsically cowardly and will always avoid facing up to something if they can.


Yeah, cause it would have been such a sign of bravery to say to him that she found him unattractive, uninteresting and repulsive. Truly that is the very definition of courage. Perhaps she is trying to be kind by letting him down gently to spare his ego. Being blunt isn't always a sign of bravery. It's usually just a sign of a lack of finesse and a lack of concern for the feelings of others. That shouldn't be confused with bravery. Now, she undoubtedly could have handled it in an even better way, but for christsakes, these people are in high school. That kind of social tact doesn't develop in most people until well after university.
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Post by Malevion »

Ok perhaps i should have said intrinsically untruthful because they dislike the sense of confrontation that the truth can create. Just I've always thought telling the truth takes alot more courage than lying. It may not be the "very definition of courage" but it is I beleive a form of courage. One which many women and quite a few men as well(but not as many as the women) don't possess. Understanding this is helpful when dealing with the opposite sex and people in general.

The thing about lies is that they just put things off and inevitably make things worse. For instance in this senario how dya think Lord Fear will feel when he shows up at the dance and sees his paramour with another guy. I would imagine he would be more than a little upset. He'd probably have been less upset if she'd just told him straight up she didn't wanna go with him at least then he wouldn't feel like he'd been lied to. This is why it has always been my philosophy that when you wrong someone you should always be upfront about doing it. It may "lack finesse" but in the long run lying is worse. Lying is almost never inspired by concern for others. It's root is fear for consequences to oneself. However, what a person should do and what they actually do hardly ever match up. Lord Fear should't get wound up over what she should have done

Anyway this doesn't change his options. Either forget about it and go to the dance with someone else or if it really matters to him confront her. The former seems like the more sensible option to me but confronting her might make him feel better so it is a possibility too.
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Post by Archdukechocula »

Malevion wrote:Ok perhaps i should have said intrinsically untruthful because they dislike the sense of confrontation that the truth can create. Just I've always thought telling the truth takes alot more courage than lying. It may not be the "very definition of courage" but it is I beleive a form of courage. One which many women and quite a few men as well(but not as many as the women) don't possess. Understanding this is helpful when dealing with the opposite sex and people in general.


I've met endless legions of men who will lie until they are blue in the face. They just do it for different reasons, like to get a woman in bed for example. I just think that it is a completely unfounded assertion to claim that women lie more than men.

The thing about lies is that they just put things off and inevitably make things worse. For instance in this senario how dya think Lord Fear will feel when he shows up at the dance and sees his paramour with another guy. I would imagine he would be more than a little upset. He'd probably have been less upset if she'd just told him straight up she didn't wanna go with him at least then he wouldn't feel like he'd been lied to. This is why it has always been my philosophy that when you wrong someone you should always be upfront about doing it. It may "lack finesse" but in the long run lying is worse. Lying is almost never inspired by concern for others. It's root is fear for consequences to oneself. However, what a person should do and what they actually do hardly ever match up. Lord Fear should't get wound up over what she should have done


Fear is certainly a dangerous motivator, as a general rule, I can agree with that, and lies can often be damaging things. However, things are rarely so black and white. If you are in 1941 germany and hiding a jewish family in your basement, and the Gestapo comes knocking at your door, honesty is not th ebest policy, nor the most moral. I dont mean to compare that with this case obviously, as they aren't analogous in terms of degree, and my example is certainly an extreme. I just mean to contest the kind of moral absolutism implied by a "no lie" policy, and the consequences such absolutism can have. Unless you have a single moral principle, you can almost never hold two principles as absolutes without a resulting conflict of principles. At a minimum you need some sort of moral hierarchy wherein such conflicts can be resolved, where one moral outweighs the other. lying is, in many cases, the lesser of two evils.

Whether or not in this case the lie is of greater or lesser moral importance than respecting another persons feelings is a point of debate. It depends on whether or not, for example, she does in fact go to the dance with someone else. If her lie is without negative consequence, then I don't think there is anything problematic about the lie. It spared him his feelings without undue consequence or harm. If however she was engaging in a lie that will later clearly be exposed by her own action, then clearly his interests were never her concern. But, as of the moment, we know neither her motive, nor intent, so I think the fair thing is to suspend judgment or give her the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise you are unfairly casting suspicion where no wrong has been commited.

Anyway this doesn't change his options. Either forget about it and go to the dance with someone else or if it really matters to him confront her. The former seems like the more sensible option to me but confronting her might make him feel better so it is a possibility too.


Certainly true.
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Post by Tenebrae »

Malevion wrote:Most women are intrinsically cowardly and will always avoid facing up to something if they can.


Wrong. If there's anything, it's a difference of culture.
This is also why females seem so manipulative from a male point of view.

(Please note: It's very possible I'll come off seeming like a sexist cynic. While the cynic part is probably no too far off, I'm a lot less sexist than may be indicated below, but I'll have to use the big tar brush to underscore my points I'm afraid.)

Females play mindgames. It's what they do.
Basic interaction between females appearantly is dominated by a mutitude of feints double feints and plain lies. The truth-value of a statement is often less important than who's saying it, and how it's being said.
Teenage girls seem especially prone to this (though I have yet to figure out exatly why).
Thus it should come as no surprise that they play mindgames with males as well. Remember, when the boys are just starting trying to ball up to talking to the girls, the girls are likewise learning to interact with boys, and what is more logical and reasonable than taking known interaction patterns and applying them in new circumstances?
Thus females, especially teenaged girls, will play mindgames with you for all they are worth. The ones that don't/won't, will usually be the outsiders, the less popular ones. They are the ones that (appearantly) play the game less often and less well among their own, and so might find alternative interactions, that can be applied to males as well.
For this reason (and others, ofcourse) I tend to prefer slightly geeky girls.

To be honest, I'm surprised at how many people saying "Oh, she said no, well that's too bad, just forget about her then."
My suggestion would've been to keep talking, as if nothing had happened.
Alot can change before the dance, and as a friend of mine once put it "It doesn't matter who she's going to the dance with, it's who she's leaving with that matters."
If she isn't interested in talking, you will know in a month or so. A littel more, a little less, depending on her style and your powers of perception.
If she's only interested in talking, and nothing more, you might have a new female friend. Yes, it hurts when you wanted there to be more, and she's crying on your shoulder about her looser of a boyfriend, but not that badly.
And the fact that you can be seen to talk to her will indicate to other girls that you're not only after getting in their panties (true or not), which can give you an edge later.
Finally, some girls consider such questions another opening for manipulations. "If he really cares, he'll keep trying" is a fantazy that is unfortunatly only too common. It's unfortunate because it ties in with that infernal "playing hard to get"-meme, which has led to inummerable rapes and violations in the past, but that's neither here nor there, and not at all on topic.
In the later case, keep talking, and who knows, this important thing that she's supposed to do instead of going to that dance might just get cancelled.

Just be aware of the hairfine line between "paing attention" and "being a stalker", and know that it must not be crossed. Ever.
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Post by S_serpent »

Oh man, Tenebrae, you above post is just the best one in this whole thread. You write it so good.


Tenebrae wrote:Finally, some girls consider such questions another opening for manipulations. "If he really cares, he'll keep trying" is a fantazy that is unfortunatly only too common.


who's fantasy? The girl/woman or boy/man? ;)
I think many girls think 'that if he really cares, he'll keep trying', but indeed you utterly right that you walk a fine line between actually caring and stalking. Keep talking is always the best thing but not always the easy thing.
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Post by Tenebrae »

S_Serpent wrote:who's fantasy? The girl/woman or boy/man? ;)
I think many girls think 'that if he really cares, he'll keep trying', but indeed you utterly right that you walk a fine line between actually caring and stalking. Keep talking is always the best thing but not always the easy thing.


Both unfortunatly, which is what makes it even more icky to deal with.
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Post by Arhalien »

Wow, we're all Warhammer players here, and one guy a few pages back even translated dating into Warhammer rules, but obviously none of us are doing Mr. Fear the favor that he asked: That we apply our tactical minds to the point of getting him a date.

And yet, we still fail to apply the single most opportunistic approach still available to us: mental dominance, and by that i mean, playing our own game instead of theirs. Any warrior knows that as long as he plays according to his opponent's rules, he will never win!!! Even as early as college, and definitely afterwards, any woman worth having will force her mate to play by her rules, but i find that a large number of teenage girls are either open-minded or stupid enough not to notice when they're playing with your deck of cards.

My point is this: do not react to her, give her a reason to react to you. All of the good comments that have been posted essentially relate back to this point, some of them being:

Talk to her to get her interested
Be gentlemanly
Be your own interesting self

Those were the big three, and if you think about it just a little, the driving point of all three of those is that they provide a positive way for her to interact with your personality.

Obviously, this observation is a little late (I'm a little disappointed that i didn't think of it early enough for it to be of proper use), but i believe that it can still be applied towards your own benefit. First off, if you need a way to approach her again, it needs to be 99% finesse; biting the bullet isn't necessary or useful anymore since the novelty of asking her to the dance has worn off, it's old news. While i agree that pressing the issue of you two going together, pressing general conversation about the dance is completely normal, and perhaps even expected. Gossip about other people, because most girls just love that, if not most people in general.

If that doesn't pressure or otherwise guilt a more solid response out of her, yet you STILL want to give it a shot (which i guess you didn't a few posts ago, but i'll ramble on anyways just in case....), attempt at making yourself unattainable. If you see her outside of class on any sort of constant basis, make yourself a little less scarce than usual. Don't stop talking to her by any means, just do a little less of it. If she still doesn't give a crap, just forget about it, or if you feel spiteful, ask another girl to the dance in front of her (although i wouldn't recommend that unless you're REALLY feeling hurtful). I'm getting into what Tenebrae just said in his big long speal: you gotta' keep talking like nothing happened and try to give her a new reason to think about you, according to the "If he cares he'll keep trying" theory. As long as you aren't too obvious about your motive (i.e. asking her directly about any part of her response after your asked her to the dance), a game of politics isn't too hard to maintain.
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Post by Malevion »

Archdukechocula wrote:I've met endless legions of men who will lie until they are blue in the face. They just do it for different reasons, like to get a woman in bed for example. I just think that it is a completely unfounded assertion to claim that women lie more than men.


Perhaps you are right. I was basing my assertation on my own personal experiences. To me it has always seemed that women lie more commonly than men.

Fear is certainly a dangerous motivator, as a general rule, I can agree with that, and lies can often be damaging things. However, things are rarely so black and white. If you are in 1941 germany and hiding a jewish family in your basement, and the Gestapo comes knocking at your door, honesty is not th ebest policy, nor the most moral. I dont mean to compare that with this case obviously, as they aren't analogous in terms of degree, and my example is certainly an extreme. I just mean to contest the kind of moral absolutism implied by a "no lie" policy, and the consequences such absolutism can have. Unless you have a single moral principle, you can almost never hold two principles as absolutes without a resulting conflict of principles. At a minimum you need some sort of moral hierarchy wherein such conflicts can be resolved, where one moral outweighs the other. lying is, in many cases, the lesser of two evils.

Whether or not in this case the lie is of greater or lesser moral importance than respecting another persons feelings is a point of debate. It depends on whether or not, for example, she does in fact go to the dance with someone else. If her lie is without negative consequence, then I don't think there is anything problematic about the lie. It spared him his feelings without undue consequence or harm. If however she was engaging in a lie that will later clearly be exposed by her own action, then clearly his interests were never her concern. But, as of the moment, we know neither her motive, nor intent, so I think the fair thing is to suspend judgment or give her the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise you are unfairly casting suspicion where no wrong has been commited.


Well of course the no lying philosophy does not stand up in extreme circumstances like that. But what philosphy cannot be made to look bad through applying it to some extreme example? In the example of protecting a jewish family the lie could be justified as it was for what the liar beleived to be a good and just cause. To me only lies motivated by fear for oneself are unnacceptable. And this is the reason why most everyday lies are told. So it is as you said= lies should only be told when they are the lesser of two evils.

As to the wretched girl, who is the root of Lord Fear's problem :roll: You may also be right that I am hasty to pass judgment. However, sad as it is I would be willing to bet money that my assessment of the situation is correct. If it turns out she actually isn't going to the dance and was telling the truth I will eat my hat. I would not relish this task as the only hat I currently own is a kind of police riot helmet I acquired once. I highly doubt it's nutricious value...

@ Tenebrae- I'm sorry but your thread does not seem to me to disprove my claim that women avoid facing up to things. It just attempts to explain why this is. Women avoid facing up to things because its in their nature. As you said and I agree totally:

"Females play mindgames. It's what they do. Basic interaction between females appearantly is dominated by a mutitude of feints double feints and plain lies. The truth-value of a statement is often less important than who's saying it, and how it's being said."

Take these common examples of dispute resolution within the sexes. They highlight how men a women are different.Note that only the male way can be considered a "resolution" the female way can be called "making things worse" :D And before you scream generalisation yes I admit it is a generalisation and not always the case but for godsakes generalisations are called generalistaions because they are common, the norm if you will. These sort of idiocies happen ALL THE TIME. I've seen it and so have you all... Anyway moving on.

When a man has a problem with another man he will usually approach that individual and make an attempt to sort shiz out. Whether it be through discussion or threat or even deceit. When a woman has a problem with another woman. She will usually ignore that individual and gossip about her hurtfully behind her back. This forms a great problem when a man and a woman have a problem with eachother. The man will approach the woman in an attempt to sort out the problem. The woman will ignore him as much as possible and will gossip about him behind his back(note to Lord Fear- it might be helpful for you to find out from this girls friends what shes been saying about you. Well it probably won't be helpful but it might be interesting)

All of this discussion while interesting is unhelpful to lord Fear and the topic in general. I suggest we all have our final say and drop the issue. As a final note this thread may make it appear that I am highly critical of women. This is true but rest assured that I hate women in general no more than I hate men in general ;) I'm no chauvanist bigot :roll:
He is a pimp and pimps don't commit suicide.

Dead men don't strike first
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