Martial Arts and Reality?

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:12 pm

Now we all know what the movies tell us about martial arts... Especially the ones like Ong Buck (or something like that) which have quite an entertaining aspect to them but they ain't exactly close to reality...

So I had this huge argument with a mate at school about martial arts and whether they are useful "in reality" or not... Since I am doing Taekwondo I was (and still am) quite convince that they are useful (that is not to say that I started doing Taekwondo because I wanted to bash up people more efficiently).
However, my mate was absolutely certain that they are not at all useful and completely removed from reality. Try as I might, I could not convince him of the opposite. So I began to question the whole thing... Is it just me and my mate? Or are there others who have different opinions on this topic? discuss!

I'll finish with a quote of my favorite Dark Eldar Lord:

HUZZAH!

Khel · Post by **Khel** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:29 pm

Ha! Your friend is a fool (No offense). I joined Taekwondo to become more fit and to help protect myself. Being caught in the city of Melbourne alone at night is quite scary and I wouldn't be surprised if I awoke with a few bruises on my head and an empty purse.

People are rarely going to perform backward spin kicks and palm heel/round-the-house kick in a common street fight. Street fights and other normal fights are pretty much just brawling and whoever can land the first few successful hits to down the opponent and then jump down onto them and shove your knee into their neck.

What I have found most useful is the common blocking patterns in Taekwondo. A simple side arm block can neutralize a huge arcing swing. Then finish them with a knee to the groin area. If they block the knee you can easily lay in a straight forward front kick to the chest or an elbow to the chest to wind them.

To sum up my brutal methods of defending myself and to make clear that martial arts help largely in common fights if you know how to use them. Taekwondo blocking patterns are great if you use them in a common fight.

Soupman · Post by **Soupman** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:30 pm

I believe that the technique involved can be effective. But I am convinced that the things that really makes a martial artist more effective in a fight are:
- Experience with fighting
- Confidence in what he or she is doing
- Good physical shape, having muscles trained specifically for fights

But of course your mate has a point, martial arts won't do you much good if someones fist finds your throat before you react or if the guy you are fighting happens to find some kind of improvised weapon

Kaseliegth · Post by **Kaseliegth** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:39 pm

Myself and a few friends have had this conversation many times. Im of the opinion that it might help a bit but in a punch up on the rugby pitch which i play, i cant see how it would help. As we have a saying one in all in on the pitch so you might have your fancy twirls and kicks but when theres 30 guys in a massive huddle on the floor i can't see you doing many of the above. I agree it does give you more confidence though. I think that its one of those personal prefernces.

The griefbringer · Post by **The griefbringer** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:06 pm

While not a student of the martial arts myself, I do have a lot of friends who are. I also have a few 'untrained' friends who have a lot of bar fighting experience.

What it boils down to is this: the martial arts teach you how to intelligently defend yourself, but are not anywhere near as powerful as portrayed. Few people, no matter how well trained, are going to be able to take down an angry man who has 75 pounds and five inches on you.

Unless there is a gross disparity in training (i.e. Bruce Lee vs Average Dude), the odds-on advantage in any fight goes to the bigger, stronger person.

This, incidentally, is why all fighting sports have weight classes.

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:52 pm

I essentially agree with the above. I myself have studied a variety of martial arts (no im not anywhere near a blackbelt in any of them)
Ive done Judo, Aikido and a tiny bit of Capoeira and recently Ive taken an interest in Krav Maga but havent been arsed to look further into it.
I dont believe that these techniques will make me a combat monster. I do however believe that if taking afew hits in the controlled environment of a club it can rid one of the fear of getting hit. Getting hit hurts(sometimes alot) but if one have tried taking afew punches they know it doesnt actually hurt nearly as bad as one who have never taken a punch would think. And a controlled arena is simply a safer place to learn that.
Another thing various martial arts can teach is knowledge of how much strenght it takes to divert or block an assault or get an opponent off balance. Also knowledge of where to strike would be helpful tools one can learn from many martial arts.
Then ofc there the physical fitness in participating in martial arts wich shouldnt be overlooked.
Personally I believe the ability to avoid getting hurt is the most important thing it can teach you wether it is defending yourself against a drunkard at a bar or having the reflexes to land properly if one falls off a bike or similar.

With that said if I were to get into a barbrawl it sure as hell wouldnt be my technique that got me out of it. My safety would rely on high Ld, T, S and the knowledge of what my body can and cant do.

Darkspear · Post by **Darkspear** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:19 pm

The key to martial arts is to practise it so much that it becomes your 2nd nature. It allows you to react it tight situations immediately and instinctively. for example, someone give you a punch, you automatically grab his hand in mid strike, twist while your second hand breaks his elbow joint.

i could never grab people's punches in the past until i took up training.

Kefka · Post by **Kefka** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:20 pm

Martial arts are effective these days, and many have been "modernized" for this day in age.
I took karate for a bit, then Taekwon-do. It really helped me become more fit, my body was overall much healthier. I also learned quite a bit about defending myself in a fight. I actually stopped a mugging once with just a crescent kick :mrgreen:

(not to brag, I just kicked the knife out of his hand when he was trying to mug my girlfriends room mates).
Seeing what Tony Jaa, Jackie Chan and Jet Li do is amazing, but not very realistic. Sure they do their own stunts, but it is all choreographed. I highly doubt you would see anything like it in real life (and if you do, film it and send me a video!)

But lets face it, if someone stands 5 feet away from you with a gun, it would take some real fancy foot work to get you out. And whenever you friends "play fight" you, you hold back because you don't want to break their ribs with a back kick. So I understand why people think it's useless, but it's not until you try it that you see how awesome it is.

Feestbbt · Post by **Feestbbt** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:33 pm

Well, there are different kinds of martial arts: Ie, the ones ending in -Do, are ritualised/ turned into sports kind of martial arts. The ones ending in -Jitsu are usually more traditional and more aimed at downing your opponent.
Im not saying that -Do sports cannot be used effectively in combat, but I am very sure that the -Jitsu variant to it is much more effective. ofcourse, 3 weeks of martial arts will not help much against someone that has been fighting all his life.. but I've seen a small guy, not weighing too much, down too many people (in his jujitsu class and outside of it) to say that its not an effective fighting tool

just my two cents ofc

Kefka · Post by **Kefka** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm

darkspear wrote:The key to martial arts is to practise it so much that it becomes your 2nd nature. It allows you to react it tight situations immediately and instinctively. for example, someone give you a punch, you automatically grab his hand in mid strike, twist while your second hand breaks his elbow joint.

i could never grab people's punches in the past until i took up training.

It does become second nature. Your reflexes will really help you. Part of most martial arts is that fights need to be ended with one or two attacks, meaning you can't get hit, but you hit them hard once and they go down. Just don't ask me how many times I've hit my friends for sneaking up on me...

feestbbt wrote:Well, there are different kinds of martial arts: Ie, the ones ending in -Do, are ritualised/ turned into sports kind of martial arts. The ones ending in -Jitsu are usually more traditional and more aimed at downing your opponent.

Actually, Taekwon-Do (like MR.Anderson and I take) is not that ritualistic. Yes, there is bowing and recognizing authority, but that's in almost all martial arts. But Taekwon-do is actually a modern martial art that was developed in the military for military use. Yes, translated Do means "The art or way" but that doesn't make it some ritual based martial art.
Karate and Capoera (sp?) were also developed as military styles of combat, they were just disguised as regular menial tasks (or dancing) so it was done in secret. The whole Belt system and all the traditions were added later, I think to make it more "cool" looking so people could sell it.

Emal · Post by **Emal** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:47 pm

To answer your question one must look at some diferent parts of the fighting itself.
Marterial arts gives you fighting experience.
It gives you stronger muscles.
If you sparr often in it you lern how to cope with pain during fights.

I train jujutsu myself and on the few ocasions i have actualy ben in a fight it proved to be most efective, but then again almost all my training sessions are sparring based so i got lots of fighting experience.

If you fight a guy who is alot bigger than you you are going to realy need to land good hits on him (or do as i did and catch him in a realy painfull joint lock)

If you do not sparr realy hard sparring fights then it aint onna help you much as i proved against a friend who claims that his bujinkan or whatever it is called owns my jujutsu since he gets to play with sticks and stand in elaborate fighting stances.

First of all, I had 3 years of experience with hand to hand combat, he had 6 months of waving a stick and standing with one arm pointing back and the other pointing towards me.
Guess who ended up on the floor.

So its basicly up to how well trained you are with your art, if you are well practiced in it then you have an edge, if you just think you have an edge anyways then you are doomed, DOOMED I TELL YOU!

Lac.desariel · Post by **Lac.desariel** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:59 pm

I currently do a form of Karate known as Shotokan. very Traditional.

Is it effective on the street? i say in limited ways,
is it effective vs judo? i say in limited ways
is it effective vs Ju Jitsu? i say in limited ways
Is it effectite vs other Shotokan Karate? Yes

i think you get my point.

now thats not to say that should I be involved in a fight out side that my reations will be quicked, I may be more so able to keep calrm and focused

My techniques will be more effective and my target choice will be better.

so to ask if matial arts are effective in reality is very open ended and hard to answer. I know one thing It puts me in a better position that if i didnt do it.

Incidently I am just echoing the words of my instructor who is a welsh international and has over 20 years of training. he is also my best mate of 17 years. under his guideance i will be taking my black belt for the 2nd time in july.

again i say this to try and add argument, time and training also have effect on how effective it will be.

I know of a guy jumped by 5 men, he ended up killing 1 and putting 2 in hospital all in self defence. he got done for manslaughter.

was he training effective?

- human · Post by **- human** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:11 pm

Martial arts help get you more fit, which I suppose helps you generally.

But from my experience, a lot of martial arts are quite removed from reality, especially traditional ones like kung fu and karate. Then we have more modern ones like TKD that are all about points and not about practical combat.

Of course, every system has the odd hardcore schools and practitioners. But I think in general, martial arts have been quite watered down and are indeed removed from reality.

I seriously hate when you say huzzah.

Belial · Post by **Belial** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:18 pm

Welcome back Mr. Anderson. We have missed you...

Just had to say it

To the topic at hand, I haven't trained Martial ARts for very long, as members of the site will know. But I feel much more confident when it comes' to fighting, than I did three months ago. Just knowing the very basics off how to punch, how to dodgem how to block... it really does a lot. Now, I have never been jumped, and frankly, have no idea how I would fare if I got in a real fight, but just knowing the basics, gives me a sense of comfort and confidence.

Tacklbry · Post by **Tacklbry** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:25 pm

I have studied Tae Kwon Do, Judo, and traditional boxing. All have their merits in a fight, and all will teach you things that will only get you in trouble.

My experience in fights comes mostly in bars or group encounters. I don't think I have ever found myself in a fight where it was one on one. Typically it was in groups, and usually we were the ones outnumbered.

The benefit of studying a martial art for those situations is it allows you to act without the need for thinking. But this only occurs when you have become proficient. Trying to use what you have learned in the Dojo in a brawl when you first start studying a discipline will probably only get you some bruises.

I don't think anybody can roll through 20+ guys the way Jet or Bruce do in movies. At least not the way they do it. If you try to use martial arts the way you see in movies, you will almost certainly get hurt.

The other weakness of many martial arts is the ritualizzation of the techniques. In reality, what you do must be more flexible, which is why they work best with more experienced practitioners.

I have several friends who compete in MMA and having been in a couple rugby pitch brawls with them, they feel that much of their training actually hindered them. They train to defeat a single opponent, and in a brawl, you cannot focus that way, or some jerk suckers you in the back of the head.

The primary rule of a fight, is usually to get out of there before you or yours get hurt, so anything you do should be geared towards escape from the situation.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:51 pm

I have been in alot of fights (mostly in my younger days), and I now train for muay thai and mma competitition. I have trained martial arts for 19 years now. My suggestion is that you learn to fight multiple opponents, learn to use your hands (so I would stop Tae Kwon Do for this reason), and learn to fight from the standing clinch (you will ALWAYS end up here in a fight, and it is by far the least trained range of fighting). You need to train basic moves (almost always the best) over and over until they are second nature and become a part of your muscle memory. You need to spar alot too. When sparring, you don't have to kill each other. Just go like 30-50%, and you will still feel each other's blows, without injuring yourself all the time. I actually made this mistake a few months ago and went a bit too hard with my opponent, and ended up cracking my Fibula against my opponent's elbow (even with shin guards on :lol:

). So take it easy when sparring, but it is vital to understand how to use your tools.

I think some of the more realistic and useful styles out there include kyokushin karate, jeet kune do (an excellent all-around style for street fighting), muay thai, boxing, judo, greco-roman wrestling, and brazilian jiujitsu.

The key, especially when fighting many people, is to hit them very hard, and then immediately put them on their back. If you hit someone, they might keep fighting, but if you hit someone and immediately put them down, they are less inclinded to get up and keep fighting. NEVER go to the ground yourself willing, and run away as soon as possible.

I know I am going to ruffle alot of feathers when I say this, but Tae Kwon Do is not a good fighting style. It is much more a sport (and a fancy one at that). Just study muay thai. Its still competitive as a sport, but has many more tools that you can use in a real fight than all the high flying kicks and fancypants moves Tae Kwon Do does. I have trained both styles extensively, and I have found almost no practical utility in Tae Kwon Do when compared to other martial arts.

The Griefbringer wrote:Unless there is a gross disparity in training (i.e. Bruce Lee vs Average Dude), the odds-on advantage in any fight goes to the bigger, stronger person.

I think you overestimate the disparity necessary to take out someone bigger than you. I agree that when skill is equal, size wins. But someone who has a decent amount of training (and knows how to use it) can easily beat a buffoon much bigger than him. I have done it myself in the past (its almost invariably a guy bigger than me that picks a fight with me), and I have seen others do it as well.

Skill > Size. Almost always.

The Griefbringer wrote:This, incidentally, is why all fighting sports have weight classes.

Fighting sports have weight classes because all of the fighters are elite level, and at this point their skills are equal an size does begin to have more of a bearing.

Post by **Langmann** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:07 pm

I agree with Grog. Judo (and it's related fighting styles) is IMHO one of the best sports/fighting styles to learn, for several reasons. (Though remember judo is a sport, but that makes it easy to find a good club and well certified instructors)

a) you learn how to bring someone down to the ground HARD.
b) you learn how to get out of being held down.
c) you practice this full out against other opponents especially if you can find people bigger than you.
d) you can practice this full out with very little injury to yourself as you learn proper control and as do your opponents. I know this may sound silly but if you have to go to work looking respectible like I do then you don't need to walk around with a bruise on your face all day.

At the end of the day the only way to learn how to fight is to get into a lot of real but controlled ones like the guys who fight in those Mixed Martial Arts competitions do. That's not for everyone.

As a physician I have seen a lot of people seriously damaged by even a single blow in a street/bar fight. Stay out of real fights where people don't have any control. Seriously.

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:I have been in alot of fights (mostly in my younger days), and I now train for muay thai and mma competitition. I have trained martial arts for 19 years now. My suggestion is that you learn to fight multiple opponents, learn to use your hands (so I would stop Tae Kwon Do for this reason), and learn to fight from the standing clinch (you will ALWAYS end up here in a fight, and it is by far the least trained range of fighting). You need to train basic moves (almost always the best) over and over until they are second nature and become a part of your muscle memory.

I think some of the more realistic and useful styles out there include kyokushin karate, jeet kune do (an excellent all-around style for street fighting), muay thai, boxing, judo, greco-roman wrestling, and brazilian jiujitsu.

Garluch · Post by **Garluch** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:24 pm

GPB said:

I now train for muay thai and mma competitition

Ouch! I dont want to be the one picking a fight with you...

I think some martial art are more suited for "real life" fighting/bar brawls/what ever. I dont want to brag but I train Kickboxing and honestly think that is one of the "better" ones when you want to learn how to fight.

Fighting in close is very brutal on the streets, learning how to hit a straight blow, upercut or a hit from the side can be extremely devastating. Those things called knuckles are quite the hard.

Better yet i think is Muay thai/thai boxing, as almost all trainers in the local club are ex-thai boxers and sometimes we practise their tecniques too.
A well placed knee or an elbow can cripple at best and kill at worst, that would be the last card to use when you are in a fight, seriously, you dont want your worst enemy suffer from severe braindamages, a punktured lung or death( Or maby we doo).

A kick can be devastating too, altough i wouldnt recomend them as they can go wrong in the streets/room/bar. But a straight pushkick cant down your oponent or act as a screen to keep them away.

A wrestling grip can be very usefull to hold your oponent down, in the ring or not to prevent them from hitting you...duh!

I also think sparing is a really good way to"get used" to have someone beating at you, to "prepare" for the ring or the real life. It can also train your eye for the opponents lack in the tecinques.

Overall ii think martial arts are good if people are carefull and mature with its use, but trainers usually are good to kick out those that want to learn to fight, not to have fun/train.

I might sount like a nutjob wholly intended on beating people but i am not, I just wanted to share the things that heave come to my insight.

PS:Belial:HOws it going? Still training kickboxing? Any belt yet?

- human · Post by **- human** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:29 pm

Yeah, I'd say grog's on the money there.

Aginor26 · Post by **Aginor26** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:36 pm

I have 2 years of TKD and about a year of BJJ experience. I would say your typical martial arts, TKD, karate, etc., are ok for SELF DEFENSE, not fighting. The techniques employed in most striking based martial arts systems are designed to first neutralize an incoming attack and end the fight quickly with some sort of retaliation. I would say that the amount these systems will benefit you in a prolonged fight scenario is much less but not negligible--as most fights end up on the ground.
BJJ, on the other hand, i think is completely practical for this reason- when you spar, you roll to submission--giving you real experience every time you train. Meaning when your actually out in a bar fight or gladiator game, you have a very solid idea of how to control your opponents movements through the entire fight. In TKD, we never sparred until the other person was KO'd
I just kind of spewed all that out real fast so i hope it makes sense, but yes, they are practical to an extent in different situations.
Yeah, and grog hit it on the head--especially about tkd being more of a sport nowadays

Arcadian · Post by **Arcadian** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:13 pm

Good Posts everyone.
Allow me to to add please. Martial Arts as a whole are wonderful means of physical and mental fitness, no matter what one studies. They encourage physical well being through training, discipline, and ideals of self and roles within communities. The best have Honor codes which better ones sense of moral bearing, and generally add to an individuals sense of empathy with their fellow humans. This cannot help but be beneficial to any individual in my opinion.

I have trained in several martial arts, both western and asian. I am a certified Nagondzog instructor, which is my private study for my own self and sense of personal compass. I teach 14th-17th century styles of western swordplay, and have now for about twelve years. Though I am not a regular student by any means, I attend private study of Bujinkan with Sensai Stowers. I would like to think I am not an embarassing student. (grin)

Does it help in regards to fighting. Yes. Ninety perecent of any encounter is understanding what is happening, and what to do about it. A story about Musashi walking a drunk friend home comes to mind. His friend wants to take a short cut through a dangerous alley because Musashi is with him, and he feels he'd be safe. Musashi points out that a wise samurai would know not to walk down that alley in the first place, as they walk the long way home.
A Void is always a better defense than a Parry. A trained man remembers this.

This is not to diminish the untrained. One of the only things that Saviollo and Silver agree upon in their writings other than the pointy end goes into the other man.. was that an untrained fighter is unpredictable and dangerous, and as a threat should be removed as swiftly and efficiently as possible. Thats begrudging respect in the sentiment of it.

Lowcash · Post by **Lowcash** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:34 pm

Good question, I would start off by saying that in emergency situations, fighting being one of them, we default to our lowest level of training, so if you learned anything about fighting, it can be helpful. That being said, your question of "are martial arts useful in reality", for the most part I would say most martial arts are not.
Here is why:
1. You normally only train against people fighting the same style as you. And in a real fight, you most likely wont be fighting some one who happens to know your style so most of what you learn goes out the window.
2. In a fight, some one is trying to kick your ass or kill you, not throw a couple of punches or kicks you are familiar with. All bets are off and any thing can happen.
3. How many martial arts train against armed opponents? Be it knife, impact weapon (stick, club, chair leg, etc) or even worse a gun.
4. In a real fight, there is a good chance there will be blood, and it may very well be your own. Have you seen your own blood leaking freely from you own face? Are you cool with that?
Can you keep fighting effectively after that?
5. More then one, opponent. I am a huge fan of styles that use a lot of grappling, throwing, chokes, etc. such as BJJ, Judo and wrestling, but those go out the window if you are facing 2 or more people.
6. Unless you are training in a martial art that stresses ground skills, you are totally useless when you do hit the ground.

I took a wing chun and choy lay fut kung fu for several years and they taught us nothing about ground fighting, except how to get up really fast if you get knocked down. Pretty much a joke. While they have some good punches kicks, they are not well rounded.
I have taken Judo, but moved from since then and there is no Judo here and am now taking Jiu Jitsu at a Gracie school that is near by, all that Kung Fu is useless on the ground. Sad but true.
If you want your martial arts training to be useful in "reality" or on the streets, I would recommend combining more then one style. Other wise you are limiting yourself in a real world situation. For example, if you have only taken TaeKwonDo, spar a guy who is at the same level as you in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and see how far you get.

IMO, some of the more useful styles are Muay Thai kick boxing as they have a lot of good conditioning techniques and use throws as well as kicks, punches, knees and elbows. Their knees are devastating, you use some of those in a real fight and most people would be done.
And then train in something else like, Judo, BJJ, Sambo or whatever style that has a lot of ground work in it that is near where you live.
If you can learn how to use knives and impact weapons that is a huge bonus. There is a school in my town that teaches "Modern Defense", it is a totally realistic. He taught us in a way that I think most martial arts teachers are afraid to teach. It is basically a "you or them" mentality. No moves are off limits and expect the worst. It was pretty rough, but thats how it is when you are on the streets with no pads.

In closing, I would like to say, get your friend in a rear naked choke and ask him "is this realistic? Hu? What now Mr.Smartypants?"

Emal · Post by **Emal** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:40 pm

I forgot to ad some points to my reply so here they come

In a real fight you cant realy use clean moves like those you lern in martial arts, you simply have to go as dirty as possible.
Something we actualy do sometimes during our training sessions :p

For example, in a life or death fight, if you get the chance to sink your teeth into the other guy i strongly recomend you do so.

But to allways remember, a respectable marterial arts teacher will allways teach you that stay and fight is the last thing you should do and only do it when there is no other option.

And even if you come to that it is strongly recomended that you try to run the first chance you get.

Venkh · Post by **Venkh** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:11 pm

I fully agree with Langmans comment about Judo.

I would just add that the difference between Judo and other martial arts is that there are no "simulated reactions" common to those other styles.

I have also noted that a lot of police officers do Judo. Given the situations they have to deal with on a daily basis, thats a decent enough endorsement for me.

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:13 pm

I will add one thing. The best self defence anyone could ever learn is ''Older brothers''. having 3 older brothers who does martial arts teaches you how to fend for yourself. I have 100 pounds on my little brother who never did any martial arts himself but damn hes a tough fight these days

I can still kick his ass (if i can catch him) but he can take alot more punishment than most people his size. Seriously the brat has like WS5, T6 and M6. Pretty well for a guy below 100 pounds.

I saw him get into a brawl once. I thought about warning the other guy but I was ''busy'' stealing my brothers drink. Poor guy never knew what hit him. :lol: