Martial Arts and Reality?

[Tenebrae]

So I had this huge argument with a mate at school about martial arts and whether they are useful "in reality" or not... Since I am doing Taekwondo I was (and still am) quite convince that they are useful (that is not to say that I started doing Taekwondo because I wanted to bash up people more efficiently).
However, my mate was absolutely certain that they are not at all useful and completely removed from reality.

Depends a bit on what you mean by 'useful'.
I'll just assume we can agree that it's not all about picking guy off the street and beating him up. And similarly, melee weapons aren't usually practical to carry around in your every-day-life.

This kinda makes styles like iaido (and iaijutsu) of rather limited use. ;)

Likewise, since it'sunlikely I'll ever face a guy in full armour on the streets, I'm probably not going to get much practical use of my (limited) Yagyu Shingan Ryu training. ;)

I'd say from my own experiences that the main applicability of MA-training in the world of today are internal.
You're a lot less likely to get into a fight, as you're more likely to be fit and projecting selfconfidence - traits that limit who will attack you.
Not projecting fear when facing someone who wanted to hit me has saved me from atleast a few fights.

Mind you, against a gun, don't even bother - atleast unless you're up so close that the gun is more of a hinderance to him than an advantage.

@lowcash:
1) Yes, true. so try to combine style and learn to generalize.
Also - some schools teach principles, not techniques.
2) Obviously true, but you already covered that point above I believe?
3) Like I said, against a gun, all bets are off unless the distance is very short - and probably even then. Not all of is live in barbarian countries where guns are easily available though. As for melee weapons. Quite a few styles do actually.
4) Down my own face? no. Well, yes, but not much. Seen my own blood leaking? Oh yes.
5) Here we move into the realm of tactics. My shotokan teachers actually dealt with this a bit, but usually the best advice is to try and limit the number of people attacking you at any given time - use of terrain is recommended. Remember that some schools actually deal with this problem.
6) So? pick more than a single style, or pick on that includes groundfighting.

[Loki]

I will stick with my pistol. And if you're so close I can't shoot, I'll pistol whip you, that is, if you're dumb enough to want to attack a guy who is packing.

[Lowcash]

Hehe, I firearm would be nice, but most states/countries do not allow it. Although I find those laws rather silly. Do criminals care about laws? No. So only law abiding citizens follow them. I do carry 2 rather large tactical folding knives, one is 12.5" long the other is 10.25" long. They are both legal in California as they are visible due to their pocket clips and they are not fixed blades. Fixed blades can only be as long as the width of your palm. Another arbitrary law IMO.

[Soulsmith]

Well, I must say, that, from my Judo experience, it would help extremely in a fight. Explains why the Japanese police and military are taught it. If you need to down and hold someone, it is tops. The first hold you learn is near impenetrable anyway.

[Shadowd1]

I agree with the mixed fighting stlye since my judo can only do so well till your opponent get you winded then i rely on my abilty to flip into the air and my home improve shin gaurd (gaulent plate steel is very effective when weoponizing things ) to bad i can only use it during weopon training

I have gotten in a fight the other day wigh a guy with a foot over me and i slightly alterd my judo trows ( fighting stlyes which you can alter are good)

[Langmann]

I have also noted that a lot of police officers do Judo. Given the situations they have to deal with on a daily basis, thats a decent enough endorsement for me.

Yeah now that you mention it, that seems to be true.

[Asikari]

To add my own thoughts to a greatly expanding list:

I've practiced aikido for over 5 years and hope to continue with my training after the current 3 year hiatus.

First, a clarification:

While the "-do" suffix does mean "the art" or "the way," this does not mean these are ritualized styles. They are traditionally focused on mental and spiritual discipline. One of my senseis once said we could apply the same training methods to, say, basketball. Not the techniques, obviously, but if we approached shooting baskets with the same mental attitude, we'd achieve a similar state of mental clarity.

In other words, the purpose of the martial art is different. That said, I've noticed that the throws performed by the nage (defender) are more effective when the attacker commits to his action (in a controlled manner, of course).

This does not mean these styles are ineffective, just not as geared towards pure fighting as -jitsu styles are. For example, by best friend has learned never to grab someone trained in any style of martial arts from behind in a friendly bear hug. He saw someone bear hug a mutual friend (who had studied aikido) and promptly got flung across the room. I myself have gotten unexpectedly grabbed from behind by a friend demonstrating something completely different to someone else and stopped in mid-throw with the thought "Oh, it's Sam." This process occurred so quickly I don't think Sam knew how close his head came from an introduction to the nearby table.

Some things I have learned through my sensei's and reading a lot:
1) If you are confronted with a fight, your first instinct should be to run.
2) The self-confidence instilled through the discipline of the fighting style normally prevents a disagreement from escalating to physical violence.
3) If you really want to learn to fight, train intensively and become very good at one style (at least 1st degree black belt), then incorporate other styles. Attaining the black belt, or equivalent, in the base style will typically have instilled the discipline which prevents techniques from bleeding between styles.
4) If someone pulls a knife, get out of dodge. While some of our throws do incorporate take-aways, the style is not geared towards defending oneself against a trained knife-fighter.

In aikido, we do multiple person training called rondori. It is a standard part of black belt tests. 3rd degree candidates must face 6 attackers. Do I want to do this in real life. NO!

The gun/martial arts debate runs rampant through my group of friends, as well. There are several of them who blatantly say "just give me a gun, I'll shoot you before you get close enough." To which my response has become "I don't have to be faster than the bullet, I just have to be quicker than you." Do I think I could do it at my current level? Again, no. But I have personally seen and done things that make me believe it's possible. But I don't want the opportunity to try it in real life.

Maybe against paint-balls.

[Greystone]

Any time you prepare yourself mentally and physically for a task, you're increasing your chance of success at it, that said some styles are far better than others for practical fighting.

I believe that older ritualized, or "outdated" styles are less effective as they often expect that your opponent will behave in a prescribed manor (he will throw a punch like this, you block that punch like this). This is seldom true in real world situations. They often also encourage techniques that are difficult to preform in a calm environment, and could be disastrous if attempted vs another skilled fighter. For purely effective fighting styles I would look into the training that armies train their soldiers in, or newer fighting styles that have been created by experienced modern fighters, such as Krav Maga, Brazilian jujitsu, or Jeet-Kun-do.

Also if you can find a teacher that has trained in many different arts they will often teach you the best effective techniques of each, along with the "Traditional" package of what ever style the sign on their door says.

[Arquinsiel]

First:

As a physician I have seen a lot of people seriously damaged by even a single blow in a street/bar fight. Stay out of real fights where people don't have any control. Seriously.

This is Druchii.net's official stance on fighting outside of strictly controlled arenas such as dojos and gaming tables.

Onto the personal stuff:

I took about four weeks of Judo before being asked to leave the class and a week of Taekwando before getting bored (it seemed silly). Apart from that I have (how old am I again?) fourteen years of fencing. The biggest benefits I have gained from these are as follows:

1) understanding of reach. From how far away can I hit someone? How far away can they hit me? The "threathened area" around a person, to use a gaming term. This leads into:

2) body language recognition. Training in a "combat" sport of any kind for a long period teaches you how to see an attack coming almost before the opponant knows they're going to make it. This is great for telling when someone is deliberately moving into number 1 and how likely they are to try to hurt you. It also helps with:

3) reaction time. It's way up on what it would otherwise be in my case. This is true of most long-time martial-artists of any kind. Knowing about the two previous points increases the effective reaction time too. Fast reactions help with:

4) running the frig away. Alternatively you can do something stupid and engage. Don't ever do that.

I actually stopped a mugging once with just a crescent kick :mrgreen: (not to brag, I just kicked the knife out of his hand when he was trying to mug my girlfriends room mates).

This one time, I stopped a mugging just by looking at the guy angrily. Anecdotal evidence is worth nothing, even if both cases are true.

The gun/martial arts debate runs rampant through my group of friends, as well. There are several of them who blatantly say "just give me a gun, I'll shoot you before you get close enough." To which my response has become "I don't have to be faster than the bullet, I just have to be quicker than you." Do I think I could do it at my current level? Again, no. But I have personally seen and done things that make me believe it's possible. But I don't want the opportunity to try it in real life.

Maybe against paint-balls.

I've had a lot of fun with a plastic lightsaber and a nerf gun. I got up to about 50% deflection in a few minutes of messing about. The trick is to wait until the projectile is within reach before moving ;p

[Faerthurir]

Black belt in tae kwon do here, haven't practiced in years. If you want to learn to defend yourself effectively, don't do tae kwon do. it was originally used to kick knights off horses, that's what all the high kicks are for.
Don't get me wrong, it's great for getting fit, but not that handy in a street fight.

As well as 5 years odd of various martial arts, i do medieval re-enactment. It teaches EXACTLY how much damage can be done with a blunt weapon (protip: you can do an unnerving amount of damage with a blunt weapon.) and makes you more confident about fighting multiple opponents.

Best advice i can offer though is to stay out of fights. And if you get in fights, run away. You can never tell these days who's carrying what. And never, ever pull a gun.

[Mr. anderson]

Welcome back Mr. Anderson. We have missed you...

Thanks

Wow, what a nice discussion

What I forgot to mention in the starting post: I never joined Taekwondo because I want to be able to beat up people more efficiently – there are streetfighting clubs which teach that far more efficiently than other martial arts. The emphasis for me is on the word art rather than martial, and the fitness and control over my body was what made me start Taekwondo. (my sig actually mentions all reasons - except beauty, which I have enough of already )

What I have noticed is that (even though I haven’t been into Taekwondo all that long) you really gain confidence because, even though I’m not a small or fragile person (I’m over six feet tall, weighing about 80 Kilos...) living in Adelaide means that when you’re hanging around in the city after 11 at night you tend to see a fair few skinheads and drunks when waiting for the bus and I have always felt somewhat intimidated (and still do) by them... but knowing how to react is reassuring in situations when you cannot leg it.

As a physician I have seen a lot of people seriously damaged by even a single blow in a street/bar fight.

The very reason that, although I have started to learn how to react in a fight I still tend to prefer to leg it... When people are drunk they tend not to feel a lot of pain, so you can hardly scare them off, and they tend to occur in larger mobs around Adelaide...

Stay out of real fights where people don't have any control. Seriously.

Just so... I tend to be a rather calm person (unless someone would be threatening my girlfriend ).

If you want to learn to defend yourself effectively, don't do tae kwon do. it was originally used to kick knights off horses, that's what all the high kicks are for.

Actually I’m doing a rather new “version” of Taekwondo which puts far more emphasis on your hands than the traditional Taekwondo does. But kicks just look so darn cool

And never, ever pull a gun.

Don’t have one, so the problem has solved itself...

When sparring, you don't have to kill each other. Just go like 30-50%, and you will still feel each other's blows, without injuring yourself all the time

We don’t even hit each other most of the time (unless we’re blocking), and there have been no serious injuries as far as I know (the worst one was, I believe, that someone’s toenail was lifted off the toe... bit painful)

My suggestion is that you learn to fight multiple opponents, learn to use your hands (so I would stop Tae Kwon Do for this reason)

Fighting multiple opponents is something I'd rather not do so I'll limit the temptaion to try it by simply not knowing how to do it. As I said before: the taekwondo I’m doing actually does just as much work with the hands as with the feet (unlike the olympic taekwondo which only ever uses feet, at least as far as I have seen...).

I love taekwondo so I won’t drop it yet. Once I have my black belt I might move on to something else, but I just struggle to give something up I have started before I have achieved whatever goal I was heading for

Nice discussion, everyone! Keep it going!

HUZZAH!

[King coombs #1]

Indeed welcome wise Mr. Anderson.

In my 17 years, i have been in many, many fights. I did martial for a while in my life. I did well in judo and average in Taekwondo (i was never fit enough). One night a friend of mine invited me to his place. This was probably the worst night of my life. He told me we were going out. So we did. Down to the basketball courts of my old school. There was a fairly large congregation of people there.

We went inside the cage and i was horrified at what i saw. There were 9 fights talking place. One of which a man was getting beaten with a cricket bat repeatedly. He told me that i was to fight. And fight i did. I was set up against a guy about the same age and weight as me.

I stood there like a stuck pig trying to remember what i had learned all that time ago. I couldnt. The guy raced at me. i ducked his first blow and uppercutted him allmost braking his jaw. I proceded to "hurt" this man in many ways.

I think of it now and i know that it was that martial arts experience that helped me duck that first blow. The rest, was instinct.

I continued to attend this "club or Gang" for many years. I learned so much from it. Though i still regret having gone that first night.

Martial arts helps your state of mind. With a clear mind, the fight is easy. I believe that it is a two way street with martial arts The ability to beat the crap out of someone with a baseball bat and dodge a blow coming at you at a million miles. They both cross at some point and will work together to bring the best possible outcome.


P.S - If you get into the same situation as i was, Leave. Just run and never go back.

[Lord_caerolion]

I did Tae Kwon Do for a few years, and although I never used it, I'd say it would have helped me if I had to use it. Even when not looking at the techniques, a martial art teaches you how to punch/kick, without risking injury in the process (obviously not counting the guy blocking/breaking your arm/foot).
I learned less of the 'tournament style' as we called it, and learnt how to use Tae Kwon Do for street fighting. Basically, we had it drilled into us, don't use high kicks, don't use jump-kicks, go for the knees, go for the groin, go for the back.

We also learnt a small bit of this other martial art, although I can't remember what it was called, I think it was American Kenpo. Even so, this had some of the most cruel techniques I know, it almost seemed a requirement that a technique had to break several joints or bones to be allowed to be tought, even in the most basic techniques.

One of my favourite, "Triggered Salute" (corny name, I know, but thats what we were told it was called, and they all had corny names) started from them grabbing your shoulder, and ended with them having a broken elbow, very hurt, if not broken jaw/nose (depending on where you hit them) and probably a few broken ribs as well, at the least quite damaged. The nastiest part was that the technique didn't end there, its only where the set technique ended. You were still holding onto their arm, so if all worked out, they're hanging limp/hurt from you, and you go on as you see fit.

Really, my biggest regret is that I left it now. It'd be really useful to take up again, especially as I'm doing a Policing course. Anything to help protect me would be useful.

[Faerthurir]

I learned less of the 'tournament style' as we called it, and learnedhow to use Tae Kwon Do for street fighting. Basically, we had it drilled into us, don't use high kicks, don't use jump-kicks, go for the knees, go for the groin, go for the back.

We did a lot of that stuff at black belt level. Fast, effective take downs, usually involving the jaw, neck , groin or knees. Some of it is quite nasty. I remember we were practicing some a new technique one time and my partner wasn't paying attention. He moved towards me instead of staying still to let me practice. Accidentally elbowed him in the jaw, spun around him and elbowed him in the back of the neck too.

Needless to say he was upset with me for quite some time...

[Loki]

I've had a lot of fun with a plastic lightsaber and a nerf gun. I got up to about 50% deflection in a few minutes of messing about. The trick is to wait until the projectile is within reach before moving ;p

I think this is a little different than the real things.

@King Coombs #1: The first rule about Fight Club is that you do not talk about Fight Club...

[Arcadian]

In regards to the question of reality, multiple opponents, ect. For my own experience I stated my root style. In regards to Nagondzog, refer to apacheknife.com (A picture of me is on the website.) and consider the list of students. The students trained are mostly international millitary and police. Multiple opponents, yes. Reality and injury, yes. It is a style recognized as a requirement for Advanced Knife Cert. by all branches of the U.S. forces.

Accept that for what you will.... it is not my place to convince.
I stand by my previous post.

Cub/Arcadian

[Arquinsiel]

I've had a lot of fun with a plastic lightsaber and a nerf gun. I got up to about 50% deflection in a few minutes of messing about. The trick is to wait until the projectile is within reach before moving ;p

I think this is a little different than the real things.

NO IT'S NOT! IT'S TOTALLY NOT!

Okay it is, but the principles are similar.... ish.

[Loki]

NO IT'S NOT! IT'S TOTALLY NOT!

Okay it is, but the principles are similar.... ish.

I'll give you that, if you ignore projectile speed, makeup and lethality, then, yes, they are similar.... ish. When you get really good, call me, we'll try it with the pellet gun.

[Asikari]

It's not a matter of deflecting the bullet, it's moving out of the way just enough no more than a split second before the gunman pulls the trigger.

I never claimed it would be easy.

[Loki]

Actually, Arq was talking about deflecting projectiles, so thats what I was talking about.

[Arcadian]

consider wax loads...

[Asikari]

Actually, Arq was talking about deflecting projectiles, so thats what I was talking about.

I'll agree with you on the deflecting projectiles bit.

[Khel]

I think people now are just trying to prove they're ninja.

[Handmaiden]

What I've found is that Martial Arts can either be very useful or not.

What I mean is that from beggining to intermediate level - Its not that useful in reality , but when you actually get advanced and start to get good, its then that It pays off in a real fight as the techniques become second nature. Only when you dont have to think about doing this move and that does it become really useful though.

But is Martial Arts useful in life or death Combat? Short answer is yes.

Many of these arts were developed over hundreds , some even thousands of years with that express purpose.

Martial Arts wouldnt be taught to Elite Soldiers were they not useful in combat.

------

The reason the "flashy" stuff, like double kicks and the like , arent perceived as being useful in real fights is because the mentality behind many of the people using them is wrong and they lack understanding of the technique and the philosophy behind it. Sure some of these moves are just ceremonial, or for Kata , however the Acrobatic sections of many moves were intended to generate power with kinetic motion.

Ive seen many times, people do a flashy move and then forget about the big contact at the end. Theyre so concerned with the move looking good and even if they get their breathing and technique bang on, they've sort of forget that the point of the move to begin with was to increase the destructiveness of the hit. Nor do they have proper spacial awareness when doing the move. It's obvious that half of the people who do this dont even know where the flashy move is supposed to actually connect on the opponent.

When you get advanced though you should be undertanding the purpose of such moves and using them appropriately. Not to mention properly. Theyre more useful if you have range.

So a few flashy moves do have their place, as the opportunity to use one may come up in a real fight , however in real fights one usually would go for the fastest simplest and closest range techniques, not necessarily the most powerful though. Energy management has a say in this too.

[Irtehdar]

I think people now are just trying to prove they're ninja.

I totally agree. People have killed it with ''im more ninja than you''.
Was a good discussion until that happened though.