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Is GW starting to loose it a bit? 
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Beastmaster
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Hey guys!

Basically i've been thinking - GW has brought out the 4th version 40k, new fantasy and 5th version (ok it like comes out really soon) consequently in an unusually short period of time.

I mean 3rd edition has stuck around for far loner then 4th has. Why have they done it? There is also all this apocalypse stuff coming out. I somehow depressively think that the GW HQ has started to loose it a bit... i don't know why - maybe they're short on money or want to start something new.

But i generally think that at least the 40k rule updates have not been for the best (but, on a more positive note I think the new fantasy edition is fantastic). Sorry for the long rant... so what do you people think?

(also no disrespect to gw - i'm not trying to insult them or anything, its just my opinion at the present)

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Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:00 pm
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Dragon Lord
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They mentioned something close to that at 25th fantasy birthday, basically you had Ist IInd and IIIrd edition of fantasy come out quite close to each other, then a break.
then IVth and Vth again close together, then a break.
now VIth and VIIth are close again.

They divided it into editions and generations
I, II, and III being 1st generation
IV and V being 2nd
VI and VII being 3rd

Now within generation rules are pretty close to each other, next being polished release of the previous one. while jumps from generation to generation took longer and were complete system overhauls (III to IV and V to VI)

I'm not sure about 40k but I'd imagine 5th edition is more of a polished version of 4th, than anything else. While between 3rd and 4th quite a bit changed. (can't tell for sure, last time I really played 40k was in 3rd...)


Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:08 pm
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Dalamar has it right.


As for 5th ed, from what I have seen it is going to be a terrible terrible switch over. From what I've read, true line of sight, and individual armor save rolls will simply make the game take far to long.

-Rex

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They are only redoing the edition because it would mean they can repromote space marines. They can redo the book, without changing much probably increase sales. That is my guess to be honest, I cannot see any other reason, the rules are solid.

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Azure wrote:
Dalamar has it right.


As for 5th ed, from what I have seen it is going to be a terrible terrible switch over. From what I've read, true line of sight, and individual armor save rolls will simply make the game take far to long.

-Rex


Agreed, talked to my gaming buddies and most around here are not very exited about 5th farty kay.

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Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:20 pm
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Dragon Lord
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They don't play Dark Eldar! Rumoured changes make 5th edition best Dark Eldar update up to date :P and they still use codex from the beginning of 3rd edition <.<


Last edited by Dalamar on Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:25 pm
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fair enough guys but the rules haven't changed drastically from 3rd to 4th like they did from 2nd to 3rd. I mean there were some changes about rapid fires to stop rhino rushes but thats about it. I wonder whats 5th goin to be like? Cause I reckon that the new rulebook will not be worth £30. I haven't even bought the last one, I just borrowed a friends, learned the rules and used ref sheets.

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Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:25 pm
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Only changes I know about are true line of sight (what you see is what you see, yay for targetting molecules ;) "I see his TOE!") and merged vehicle damage chart (no more glance/penetrate/ordnance, you get + or - to your roll depending on how good your shot was)


Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:28 pm
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The new 5th edition, seems to close to the last one.

G.W seem to be money grabing. From what i've seen the new addition, is all about getting line of sight, spot on.

I think alot of the fun will be taken out of the 40k game.

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Prophet of Tzeentch
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Azure wrote:
Dalamar has it right.


As for 5th ed, from what I have seen it is going to be a terrible terrible switch over. From what I've read, true line of sight, and individual armor save rolls will simply make the game take far to long.

-Rex


When I played (I dont get to play much any more) my group allways used True line of sight just because its so much more sensible, it doesn't slow games down a great deal so long as one of the players isnt trying to cheat, and who wants to play those people anyway?

Personaly I think that this is just a money grabing exercise, the 5th edition polished the fourth and now its an enjoyable, playable game. It doesn't need changing, but they know that the vast majority of gamers will buy it and they will make a great deal of money from it. I am considering simply not buying it out of protest. If we just dont buy things when we dislike what GW are doing they will soon get the message.

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Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:31 pm
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Its a totally niche market driven by solely disposable income sales. Shiny new stuff is the way of the GW world. New Daemonettes who needs them. The reality is the market is geared toward new gamers...new gamers equal new sales. The way GW grow revenue is new gamers. The long time gamer gets mostly lip service... where are we going to go? We like playing with our toy soldiers and the GW universe is still the only widespread place to play in.

The explanation for 5th ed 40k is they are "making the game more cinematic and fun" Getting down to "eye level" of a toy soldier and trying to figure out what they can see may be fun for some folks.

Frankly, I do not care what they do with 40k I gave it up a good while ago and fantasy has a chance to move in a good direction. The HE book is a good book by GW standards. The big issue will be what are they going to do with chaos. Sales projections and market studies will continue to control what they decide.

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Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:17 pm
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Mordru wrote:
Its a totally niche market driven by solely disposable income sales. Shiny new stuff is the way of the GW world. New Daemonettes who needs them. The reality is the market is geared toward new gamers...new gamers equal new sales. The way GW grow revenue is new gamers. The long time gamer gets mostly lip service... where are we going to go?

Privateer Press, Blizzard, or get out the miniatures game altogether. There are substitutes for warhammer other then miniatures. Especially from a new gamers perspective.

But your right totally niche market, and their sales are driven by finding new gamers. Much more so then people who have been playing for years. But this is generally true with all games, and as a result gaming companies are changing their business model to take advantage of this fact. Like, Privateer Press, AEG, MtG, and all the MMO's.

And its not like they did this recently, this change in business model happened years go. GW is just way behind the times, and the new business model is dynamic enough to keep old players continuing to spend money. Which in turn leads to them playing more, which in turn leads to more new players.

I would not say GW is 'losing it' Id say they already lost it. As shown by other companies starting to get market share in their niche market in the last few years, when previously over their 25 years they knocked all competition away with ease.
It just takes a bit of time for a giant to fall, and with removing external play testing, not releasing rumors. And when they just did redid their site and made it if anything less informative (although prettier), it shows a lack of understanding of their internal problems.


Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:56 pm
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Ya this is all true. But I want them to survive.......are the stores common? As we have none in AZ and I think we used to but it closed down.


Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:29 pm
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i want gw to survive. although in my town there used to be one average size store and one small one, but then they closed down the small one and moved the other one in a more central location - which is good i think

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As far as I can tell the majority of changes have been a collection of steps backwards. I'm happy that true LoS is back, but not happy that tanks are looking to be pillboxes again. Running is a bit better than the current situation but it's worthless compared to a flat movement stat and just makes the close-combat fest issue even worse. I'll give it a shot, and see what happens.

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Im okay with the running, but there should be something like if a unit runs, any unit targetting that unit gain +1 to BS, showing that they are being reckless.


Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:43 pm
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apparently the 5th Ed 40k buggers up eldar a treat short of going down the armoured vehicle route.

Dont quote me on this as i dont play 40K but its what i've been hearing recently

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As far as I've heard, it is going to be more focused on infantry and less focused on vehicles. If that's so, then I'll be hurt, what with my Eldar having 2 tanks, 3 walkers, 3 vypers, and a Wave Serpent and my Wolves being fully mounted.

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From the little bit I've seen of the rulebook (and they seem to be dropping rumour books, changing things, etc on a regular basis) it doesn't seem to be all that bad. A lot of people who've played the game a while used to play the true LOS rules anyways, so its no big deal. Everyone just goes out an buys a laser pointer. Around here, they cost $1. More than that, I read a passage at one point about vehicles that said you needed to see part of the hull and not a weapon or banner or something.


The thing around here that pisses most people off is the rumoured combined vehicle damage chart that makes it near impossible for some armies to deal with armour 14. Some armies just don't have anything more than S8 weapons which just won't cut it.

The thing that pisses me off a bit is that its rumoured that only the big, hard cover, expensive book will be out for the first few months, meaning that everyone will have to fork over major $ to actually play the game because they need the new book.

To be honest, GW's best games are the one that they haven't touched in years, like BFG and Mordheim.

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Which armies are those, I can't think of any.

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Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
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i've had problems with high armor with my chaos marines. lascannons, missle launchers, and blast masters dont cut it for me. it usually comes down to the daemon prince to handle it... or some meltabomb manuever but the problem is getting there to use it and sacrificing someone who is more geared to take on infantry to handle a tank... and blah blah blah, usually just comes down to me not wanting to load up on anti-tank because i'd rather play like a man and do a rush-down.

and I agree with vorchild, the best stuff GW has is the stuff they dont touch.

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Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:07 pm
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Come over to epic my pretties ;)

OT: GW was losing it, but the big pick up in sales of late has shown that they're back to money making ways.


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i also notice GW are now selling thier own laser pointers for those foolish enough to pay those prices. just in time for the latest 40k rule book release in which LOS is going to play a big part.

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Funny how so few here realise how crappy true LOS is. Makes a lot of the existing terrain useless, and makes the game take even longer as you have to try and make sure your troops cant be seen. And what about those of us with commanders in heroic poses? So now I am penalized for converting my chaos lord to stand on some dead loyalists? While someone that models his assault troops crouching or crawling gets an advantage? Didnt we have enough of crouchign wraithlords punched owner before? Well bye bye farty kay.

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LOS won't be so bad, the current level 1/2/3 just dosen't work so nearly anything will be an improvement. Basically if you play sensible people it won't be noticable, if you play retards it will be hell, same as every other game.

It might just be their excuse for not making each generation of models bigger than the previous like has happened to Tyrants, Carnifexes, terminators, etc, etc, :D

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