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The Situation of Druchii.net - Admin's Response 08/11/28 
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The Exiled One
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How long, cool glass of step back do you want? I stepped back in February 2006. That's almost three years ago. I had dropped it and moved on, but when I see someone writing incorrect facts I, being the pedantic I am, feel an urge to correct those. I tried to do so in a civil manner until the last paragraph. That paragraph was an insult, and I am aware of it. But I don't agree to the reasons my entire post was removed.

Calisson, I'm sure I can give a fairly good review of what happened on D.net from 2003 to 2006, but as the site started in 2002, I can't give you details about the very very early days (i.e. when the site had less than 1000 members).

~ Naggie

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:21 pm
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Shadowdancer
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If you had truly moved on you would have responded to the "incorrect facts" with a resounding "meh." As it stands you've returned to a site you claim to have left and are rabble rousing in a most transparent manner. Just enjoy the drama or do you really feel that you must correct the entire internet?

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:38 pm
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The Exiled One
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If by "enjoying the drama" you mean that I'm interested in seeing where all of this will lead, then sure. I'm your drama queen. *puts her high-heels on*
I had moved on in the sense of dropped and forgotten. But memories can return, as can feelings.

And I haven't truly returned. I'm merely paying a short visit as a thread about my own history was spotted by one of my friends who still lurk the boards once in a while.

~ Naggie

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:46 pm
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Highborn
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Quote:
How long, cool glass of step back do you want? I stepped back in February 2006. That's almost three years ago. I had dropped it and moved on, but when I see someone writing incorrect facts I, being the pedantic I am, feel an urge to correct those. I tried to do so in a civil manner until the last paragraph. That paragraph was an insult, and I am aware of it. But I don't agree to the reasons my entire post was removed.

Calisson, I'm sure I can give a fairly good review of what happened on D.net from 2003 to 2006, but as the site started in 2002, I can't give you details about the very very early days (i.e. when the site had less than 1000 members).

~ Naggie



While I don't agree in the spreading of false information I don't think what happened in the "six years?" thread should have happened. I doubt anyone took what Rork said in the thread as "the word of god" so to speak. You honestly didn't need to call Rork out on the facts being incorrect in the thread. It was apparent to me as an outsider from the whole situation that you were not only trying to embarrass Rork in front of the community, but your reply was also quite hostile in it's nature.

What it all comes down to is that if you had an issue with Rork and what he had said in the post, you should have taken it up with him privately.

All of this drama definitely needs to cease. It belongs in PMs, or maybe exchange numbers :lol: . Things should be discussed privately and in a civil manner, as adults.

As for the forum being a bit strangle, sure I can see where one would get that idea, but most of my posts have always been either thread commentary in the tactics forum or army list threads and neither of those really require any kind of rocket science to get right.

I have been at druichii.net from the getty get-go, and though times were tough sometimes, it was never unmanageable or miserable in the least. It was always an interesting and informative community to be a part of.

-V

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:16 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Langman has publicly acknowledged your position, and has said that he will look into matters and report back. Ergo, there is no reason to further animosities, hostlilities, acting as a drama queen...whatever any of you wanna call it.

Therefore, I am locking this thread to give Langman a chance to do what he said he would do. After all, that is what you (Nag etc) wanted.

Anyone with any issues about this can take it to pm which is where it should have been in the first place.


Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:17 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Re: The 6 Years Thread and the Petition Thread

Ok I have looked into this issue. Since this issue was brought into the open by all the people involved I will discuss my findings in the open. Some people may not like what I conclude here, but I have seen all the evidence.

Declaration of Impartiality

As webmaster and Admin here, I am impartial to what occured during the chatroom as discussed by Rork and Nagathi. I was not involved in the chat room nor have been. I am not a particular friend of Rork or Nagathi.

Findings

a) Belail is an impartial moderator. I have not had any complaints about him in the past. Belail was not around when the chat room issue being discussed occured and is unlikely to hold any bias in this area. I have had several PMs from users who are supportive of Belail as a moderator here. I have had no negative PMs.

b) The chat room issue primarily involves the decision to keep druchiinet chat from being merged with Endanal, a multi site chatroom. At that time a democratic vote took place inside the chat room itself. Vorchild I believe also moderated the vote at the time, not just Rork. Prior to the vote I entered the chat room and asked users several times during the day their opinion regarding a merger, which the majority did not support. The final decision of the democratic process was that the chatters wanted to be independent. There were some hard feelings as a consequence of the vote but in the end the majority spoke. As webmaster I could only act on that decision regardless of my own feelings or other people's feelings, and as webmaster I kept the chatroom private to druchii net - for better or worse.

c) Rork posted a thread entitled "6 Years" during which he discussed some of the events of the Druchii net lifetime. I cannot find any evidence that Rork intentionally attempted to start a flame war or insult other people in his thread. It is my honest opinion that Rork was simply reliving glory days.

d) Nagathi responded to Rork’s post in the 6 years thread. Nagathi’s own admission to me is that some of what he posted was offensive.

e) Belail realizing that the 6 years thread had turned into a nasty argument which was quickly turning Rork’s thread into a unintended re-hashing of the events surrounding the chat room issue as well as a thread containing personal insults, edited the thread out.

f) Belail then sent Nagathi, Arquinsel, and Lethalis a PM asking them politely to please re-edit their own threads without insulting Rork. (See Appendix 1 and 2) Belail did not ask them to refrain from discussing the chat room issue. Rather he asked them to not insult other members.

Concluding Statement

I find no evidence of censorship in the 6 years thread. Belail did not ask people to refrain from discussing the chat room issue. Belail asked people not to insult other people. Nagathi admits that some of his comments were insulting. Flaming and personal insults are not typically allowed on Druchii net as reviewed in the official site rules. Belail was acting as a responsible moderator in regards to that issue.

Secondly Belail asked people to edit their own posts, not to remove the discussion regarding the chat room issue, but to remove any insults. He asked them in a polite manner and with respect, in order to allow them to frame their response to Rork’s interpretation of the chat room issue in their own words.

Personal insults and attacks may occasionally occur here during heated debates. However those should not be a typical occurance at druchii net and it is in a moderator's perogative to keep the peace. As such Belail appears to have acted in a fair manner and I see no reason to lose confidence in his abilities.

Appendix 1: Belail's PM to Nagathi

Hey,

I'm sorry, but I will have to ask yuo to edit your post. Your post, and those of others, including our own Arquinsel, have taken a personal and negative tone, that I don't find fitting. I understand that back then, things got bad between some of you, and I understand it might feel like a slap in the face that Rork writes about it in a way that does not really represent your view. Whether you, Rork or someone else is right about how things were back then, I can't judge, as I don't know anything about that time, and what went on behind the scenes, and you are, of course, completely entitled to present a different view. But I hope you will do it in a more constructive tone. I think it's important, if Rork is indeed portraying it completely wrong, that you should be able to give your view on it. I'm not trying to censor your or anything. Just your language. If you are mad at Rork, then take it out on him in a PM. I have, since I'm doing a complete cleanup, removed the contents of your entire post. It's awaiting an edited version of your post, that I sincerely hope you will put there. Your original post is below.

I hope you understand why I do this, and that it's not easy for me. I want to stay objective.

- Belial

Appendix 2: Belail’s PM to Lehalis

Hey Leth,

Look. I don't know how things were back then. And I understand you might feel it like a slap in the face if Rork is indeed suggarcoating it, and twisting the truth. But please... Personal critique and attacks shouldn't be there. I have deleted your post, and Arq's reply to it which was no better.
I have also contacted Nagathi, for the same reason. If you disagree with how Rork is portraying it, and you feel the need to tell him, do so in a PM. If you want to tell us, those of us who doesn't know what was going on back then, then I suggest you PM Nagathi. I have left his post there, so he can give his take on the things, and as I understand it, you're "on the same side". The thread is locked, for now at least.

I'm sorry man. I hope you understand why I do as I do, and that I want to stay objective.

- Belial

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:08 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Your replies are welcome, however lets keep it civil and have some perspective. The Economy sucks, people are dying daily....

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:17 am
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Highborn
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I am still waiting for you to adress my reply, both the decision to delete it and its contents.

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:10 am
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this is getting somewhat ridiculous.

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Last edited by Faerthurir on Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:27 am
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The Exiled One
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langmann: thank you for devoting some time into looking this up and down, but unfortunately I feel you missed the point. As you may notice from the contents of the original post in this thread, we are not opposed to having the site moderated, nor are we really opposed to having parts of my blunt reply to Rorky cleaned up a bit.

What we are against is the idea that seems to lie within many moderators and administrators that thoughts outside their line of thinking and their box of reality should be removed on sight and not be investigated further. I may be a left-wing socialist and a liberal, but I find this fear of new ideas and new thoughts to be very conservative. And that is why we are questioning some (not all) of the actions made by mods and admins on this site.

As I told you in my private conversation to you, and you urged to display for everyone, I agree that some parts of my first reply to Rork was offensive. If a moderator finds a post where 1% of it is borderline offensive, is it normal praxis to remove the entire thing? Should it be? Why?

As an admin of another site, I agree with Belail that my post needed to be cleaned up. It is the way he did it that I react to. And when we speak up about it, those posts get deleted - this time without a PM being sent to anyone. I hope you can see where we're coming from when we feel this site is supressing those who question the authorities in light of all this.

I do not question this decicion here (except that you think no cencorship has taken place), but you missed our key issue, and I'd love to hear what you feel about that.

Regards,

~ Naggie

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:04 pm
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Dark Illusionist
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Even though I am not directly involved with this issue, being a moderator I still feel somewhat involved in it due to you using the generalising term "moderators" in your post:

Quote:
What we are against is the idea that seems to lie within many moderators and administrators that thoughts outside their line of thinking and their box of reality should be removed on sight and not be investigated further. I may be a left-wing socialist and a liberal, but I find this fear of new ideas and new thoughts to be very conservative. And that is why we are questioning some (not all) of the actions made by mods and admins on this site.


Could you be any more specific as to where exactly we have simply censored or removed topics that lied outside our box of thinking, other than the one in the six years thread which I believe has sufficiently been taken care of.

HUZZAH!

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:15 pm
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The Exiled One
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Hi there, Andersson. Long time no see.

First I want to let you know why I write "moderators" in a general term. It is based on the fact that we still don't know who deleted* Andy's post as seen on the image linked to in my original post of this thread. We know it must have been a moderator or administrator, but as Andy has not yet received a PM with any reasons for why his post was deleted, we cannot know who made this action - and thus I am reduced to having to talk about moderators in a more general sense.

The above incident with Andy's post should also be one of the answers to your main question. I have more such comments but - unlike langmann - I feel things told to me in private by trust to each other should remain private. Thus I will not name-drop or point anyone out for making wrong. I will continue to talk about the matter as something general on this site, and done by more than one staff member.

~ Naggie

* Not "edit" as langmann chooses to portray it.

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:28 pm
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to be quite frank, the mods here are very fair minded and democratic. in mamy reputable forums i know of if someone pisses off a mod all his posts are replaced with "i'm a tool" or something similar and then the offending user is permabanned.

it might not be fair, but this is the internet. the internet is not known for being kind, tolerant, forgiving or interested in your problems.

tl:dr gg mods, ur doin a great job! *quakes in fear of reprisal* :)

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:31 pm
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The Exiled One
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Faerthurir, I tried to ignore your first reply after langmann made a specific post telling us to keep it civil and with perspective.
But I feel sorry for you. You haven't been on a good number of serious communities, run by serious people if you think that the forums which have deteriorated into poo-flinging staffers are still reputable.

I know the Internet isn't fair. I know it is a place of power hierarchy, but does that mean we should all just lay down and accept being run over (not speaking about D.net specifically here), or should we try to improve where we can (now I am speaking of D.net)? If I can make the world a slightly better place, I try to do it. If I see a recyclable can laying on the ground, I pick it up for recycling. It might not do much, but it is a slight improvement. Call me whatever you want, but I believe the world can change for the better. And I still have faith in the staff of this site. I believe the staff here can become better at what they do, and that they take our constructive critisism for what it is - and not as an attempt to overthrow the authorities.

~ Naggie

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:48 pm
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Arnold Layne
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Shenanigans.

You were all three sent messages, and all three given a chance to explain your behaviour privately, and all three given a chance to edit your own posts for the better, and you all three failed to do so. Then you all three made your grievances public. It was our response - our response, almost the whole team has had input - to make what little was done privately also public, just to keep the air clear for anyone passing by. It was that or delete the whole dang lot, compared to which this is a solution passing fair.

The length of the glass is as long as needs be for you to get a point of view from which you can see how foolish you look*. The correct length would be best known to you I guess.

Oh, and Faerthurir - please, don't do that.

*Naturally my own personal opinion.

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:10 pm
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I have not received any PMs. Please do not make assumptions that are not correct.

And putting a "Naturally my own personal opinion" asterix to a sentence where you call us foolish does not excuse it. Your posts are always your personal opinion. Pointing out elements of them as "personal opinions" is the same as trying to claim that the rest of them are objective facts, which is not a kind of rhetorics I appreciate. Please keep yourself to actually discussing the topic at hand, instead of attacking us as persons for the thread. It is not, as you claim, mischief, prankishness, deceit or trickery, as you imply by using the word "Shenanigans" about the thread.

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:20 pm
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The Exiled One
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Layne wrote:
Shenanigans.
Thanks...

Quote:
You were all three sent messages, and all three given a chance to explain your behaviour privately, and all three given a chance to edit your own posts for the better, and you all three failed to do so.

Do you have any facts to back that statement up with? Andy's post was deleted. It is impossible to edit a deleted post (and I'm sure you're aware of that fact). Also:
Lethalis wrote:
I can truthfully tell you that I have not been sent a PM by anyone asking me to edit my post
Andruillius wrote:
Haven't received a single PM since I barked at Anderson some months ago for locking my discussion about assassins in units and failed fear tests

The only one having received such a PM is myself, to which I replied - in private - asking for more specifications and clarifications. I'm still waiting for answer to that one.

Quote:
It was our response - our response, almost the whole team has had input - to make what little was done privately also public, just to keep the air clear for anyone passing by.
Can we then also, pretty please with a cherry on top, see the reasons for some of the mods' actions? I know D.net has a praxis of always posting the reasons of a mod action in the private mod forum. Please share.

~ Naggie

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Last edited by Nagathi on Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:33 pm
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If you want to comment on the quality of moderation and the site in general, please look around a bit more first.

And your posting of your this thread in public instead of taking it up with the moderators and admins involved is precisely the thing one would do to overthrow the authorities.

You chose to leave the mod team and the forum a long time ago. We will not divulge the contents of a private forum to you. I repeat, this is not a democracy.

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:34 pm
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The Exiled One
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Gnosis wrote:
If you want to comment on the quality of moderation and the site in general, please look around a bit more first.
Why? Where do you draw the line? What is enough odd behaviour from the staff for us to comment on it?

Quote:
And your posting of your this thread in public instead of taking it up with the moderators and admins involved is precisely the thing one would do to overthrow the authorities.
If you re-read my posts, you'll see that we're unable to determine who the moderators and administrators involved are. And if you've read any social sciences or politics you know that the best way (for everyone involved as well as the public) to question your authorities is to do so where someone sees it. By making our claim public, we have gotten people from this site sending us (at least me) PMs saying that they support us and agrees with us. Would they have done the same if we had sent our complaints by secret PM? No. This is not an attempt to overthrow the staff. I thought you guys knew me better than assuming that. But I guess that shows how you view us and what preconceived understanding you have of us.

Quote:
You chose to leave the mod team and the forum a long time ago. We will not divulge the contents of a private forum to you. I repeat, this is not a democracy.
I decided to leave the site in protest. Not the mod team in particular. But that's a whole other discussion and not something we should bring up here. And I understand that you wouldn't divulge info in a private forum to us, but as you decided that my private conversations were subject for making public, I felt like making a contrast.

But I still like to know the reasons. I bet I'm (or at least Andy is) entitled to it.

~ Naggie

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:49 pm
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Quote:
Why? Where do you draw the line? What is enough odd behaviour from the staff for us to comment on it?


The ones accusing us of not being fair are the ones who have to draw the line. If you don't like something, tell us. But right now you are not being specific enough. As it is now, it looks as though you are accusing the whole team of mods of global corruption if you will - and that does not work, or at least not look plausible without giving any kind of specific example of another case where this has happened other than the (now infamous) six years thread.

Quote:
But I guess that shows how you view us and what preconceived understanding you have of us.


Can we just leave direct insults out of this? It is in your own interest to stay polite, seeing as the tone you choose right now makes you seem less mature and thus somewhat robs your claim of its basis. If you tell us to take your criticism as constructive criticism, you have to make it constructive criticism (and for your information - we have never EVER shot constructive criticism down on this site). As it is right now you criticise us in an insulting way and obviously we are not willing to simply go along with that.

HUZZAH!

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:04 pm
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Just throwing my two cents into the pot.
I have been very fairly treated by the moderators over the course of time I have been here. They have been harsh but fair to me in a few different topics. I personally feel that the forum is run brilliantly and I at the moment don't see any problem with the way it is run. Forgive me if I have missed the point of this topic, but Nagathi, this is a forum which means it is your decision to post here (as I have been told many times), and yours alone. You said that you left the forum in protest about the way you were treated and the way the forum ran, so why are you coming back to the forum and re-opening old wounds. Nobody has forced you to post anything on this forum, it is through your own choice. So I personally feel that you are in the wrong for airing this in the public, and literally getting everybody involved. If you have your issues with certain people, or how the way it is run, then pm them. You keep saying you are waiting for a reply to a pm you sent. Well if nobody replies, then just politely send another pm asking for somebody to talk to you, if the problem KEEPS reoccuring, then pm somebody else. There isn't only one person moderating this forum, so saying that you only pm'd one person and they are not responding is wrong, if 5/10 people do not respond, then you have a problem. I do apologize if I have missed that point as this post is starting to get rather confusing.


Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:06 pm
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Layne wrote:
Oh, and Faerthurir - please, don't do that..


Do what now?

Also, sorry if i come across as a bit harsh nagathi, i'm a grumpy misanthrope who's spent far, far too much time on the internet...

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Last edited by Faerthurir on Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:08 pm
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Faerthurir: you know what you did. Your post with the picture of the troll is borderline spam and flaming. In a thread where we are obviously working hard to keep it civil, that is uncalled for.

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Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:11 pm
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Fair enough loki, i shall edit my post appropriately as i have been given fair warning by a moderator

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Last edited by Faerthurir on Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:14 pm
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Sorry for interrupting the thread.
It is interesting to read as a newbie.
Life is not always cool and gentle and so is e-life, apparently.

I just wish everyone tried to keep emotions down.

When writing posts, it is not possible to see the face of the reader and to adjust accordingly. It is so easy to write something light that is percieved offensive.

Because of that, the only way to behave IMO is to be much, much more polite and prudent than in real life.

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Last edited by Calisson on Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:32 pm, edited 6 times in total.



Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:15 pm
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