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The Situation of Druchii.net - Admin's Response 08/11/28 
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The Exiled One
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We go to this length of making a topic devoted to the situation because we feel that the mods ignore our attempts at opening a discussion about the matter. Several of our posts have been deleted today, on false grounds that they were mudslinging. It has gone to the extent that we no longer feel PMs are enough to change the situation, which we find intolerable.
A good, democratic society is one where the people are allowed to criticize the rulers openly, pointing out their flaws for everyone to see so that the flaws can be corrected to the benefit of everyone. For the leaders, this will sometimes hurt. Yet if they choose to listen, it will only strengthen them; a good leader is one who is willing to take advice, not dismiss it as a principle. We wish this to apply to this website as well.

As an internet forum with anonymous users, Druchii.net is in a different position than Real Life societies, because some of the necessary basics are not present. That does not mean that democratic principles should be chucked away in their entirety. If users, like us, are speaking up and raise sincere concerns that the once-great Warhammer web community is moving in a bad direction, people should be concerned if the mods react by silently deleting their posts. It is hard to see how this can be viewed as anything but censorship to avoid dissidence among the members. As you can see in this picture, Andruillius tried to speak up today, but his post was deleted without any warning, explanatory post or PM.

Our statements are thus:
- The moderators at Druchii.net are strangling critical discussions, leaving the website a place where only positive posts, or posts totally in line with what the moderators want us to post, are allowed.
- The moderators of Druchii.net are given members differentiated treatments based on their status on their site. Our example here is Nagathi’s post about the history of the chats, which was deleted with the argument that personal views were not allowed and that the mod (Belial) wanted to keep the story as “neutral as possible”, while leaving Rork’s version of the story untouched.
- The moderators of Druchii.net are censoring attempts at speaking up against this practice.

Is this the Druchii.net Kitrik, its founder, wanted? Is this how this place should be managed? We don’t think so. While Druchii.net should have the same hierarchic structure as any other internet forum, its management should not censor criticism against its practices. If the mods cannot in a rational way explain their actions, but choose to delete posts without giving a message about why, something is fundamentally wrong. With this post we hope to make the mods realise that they should be more open to feedback from the Druchii.net members, and use the Delete Post function only when the content in a post is in no way constructive, not simply when someone criticizes the mods. While it is best to solve bipartisan disputes via PM, posts criticizing the mod’s decisions should not simply be deleted.
If Belial and other mods continue their practice, this thread will be deleted in short time. We hope it doesn’t; if the mods of Druchii.net share the democratic values which we cherish in free countries, other members of D.net should be allowed to speak up if they agree with us. If none do, so be it.

A copy of it is sent to Kitrik, langmann and General Kala to ask if this really is how Druchii.net should be. If they agree with the censorship practice, Druchii.net has verily changed into a website that we cannot identify with.

Signed,

Nagathi, Lethalis and Andruillius

Longtime members and contributors of Druchii.net.


*******************************************************
Administrator Response As Follows:
langmann, Webmaster Druchii Net
*******************************************************

Re: The 6 Years Thread and the Petition Thread

Ok I (langmann) have looked into this issue. Since this issue was brought into the open by all the people involved I will discuss my findings in the open. Some people may not like what I conclude here, but I have seen all the evidence.

Declaration of Impartiality

As webmaster and Admin here, I am impartial to what occured during the chatroom as discussed by Rork and Nagathi. I was not involved in the chat room nor have been. I am not a particular friend of Rork or Nagathi.

Findings

a) Belail is an impartial moderator. I have not had any complaints about him in the past. Belail was not around when the chat room issue being discussed occured and is unlikely to hold any bias in this area. I have had several PMs from users who are supportive of Belail as a moderator here. I have had no negative PMs.

b) The chat room issue primarily involves the decision to keep druchiinet chat from being merged with Endanal, a multi site chatroom. At that time a democratic vote took place inside the chat room itself. Vorchild I believe also moderated the vote at the time, not just Rork. Prior to the vote I entered the chat room and asked users several times during the day their opinion regarding a merger, which the majority did not support. The final decision of the democratic process was that the chatters wanted to be independent. There were some hard feelings as a consequence of the vote but in the end the majority spoke. As webmaster I could only act on that decision regardless of my own feelings or other people's feelings, and as webmaster I kept the chatroom private to druchii net - for better or worse.

c) Rork posted a thread entitled "6 Years" during which he discussed some of the events of the Druchii net lifetime. I cannot find any evidence that Rork intentionally attempted to start a flame war or insult other people in his thread. It is my honest opinion that Rork was simply reliving glory days.

d) Nagathi responded to Rork’s post in the 6 years thread. Nagathi’s own admission to me is that some of what he posted was offensive.

e) Belail realizing that the 6 years thread had turned into a nasty argument which was quickly turning Rork’s thread into a unintended re-hashing of the events surrounding the chat room issue as well as a thread containing personal insults, edited the thread out.

f) Belail then sent Nagathi, Arquinsel, and Lethalis a PM asking them politely to please re-edit their own threads without insulting Rork. (See Appendix 1 and 2) Belail did not ask them to refrain from discussing the chat room issue. Rather he asked them to not insult other members.

Concluding Statement

I find no evidence of censorship in the 6 years thread. Belail did not ask people to refrain from discussing the chat room issue. Belail asked people not to insult other people. Nagathi admits that some of his comments were insulting. Flaming and personal insults are not typically allowed on Druchii net as reviewed in the official site rules. Belail was acting as a responsible moderator in regards to that issue.

Secondly Belail asked people to edit their own posts, not to remove the discussion regarding the chat room issue, but to remove any insults. He asked them in a polite manner and with respect, in order to allow them to frame their response to Rork’s interpretation of the chat room issue in their own words.

Personal insults and attacks may occasionally occur here during heated debates. However those should not be a typical occurance at druchii net and it is in a moderator's perogative to keep the peace. As such Belail appears to have acted in a fair manner and I see no reason to lose confidence in his abilities.

Appendix 1: Belail's PM to Nagathi

Hey,

I'm sorry, but I will have to ask yuo to edit your post. Your post, and those of others, including our own Arquinsel, have taken a personal and negative tone, that I don't find fitting. I understand that back then, things got bad between some of you, and I understand it might feel like a slap in the face that Rork writes about it in a way that does not really represent your view. Whether you, Rork or someone else is right about how things were back then, I can't judge, as I don't know anything about that time, and what went on behind the scenes, and you are, of course, completely entitled to present a different view. But I hope you will do it in a more constructive tone. I think it's important, if Rork is indeed portraying it completely wrong, that you should be able to give your view on it. I'm not trying to censor your or anything. Just your language. If you are mad at Rork, then take it out on him in a PM. I have, since I'm doing a complete cleanup, removed the contents of your entire post. It's awaiting an edited version of your post, that I sincerely hope you will put there. Your original post is below.

I hope you understand why I do this, and that it's not easy for me. I want to stay objective.

- Belial

Appendix 2: Belail’s PM to Lehalis

Hey Leth,

Look. I don't know how things were back then. And I understand you might feel it like a slap in the face if Rork is indeed suggarcoating it, and twisting the truth. But please... Personal critique and attacks shouldn't be there. I have deleted your post, and Arq's reply to it which was no better.
I have also contacted Nagathi, for the same reason. If you disagree with how Rork is portraying it, and you feel the need to tell him, do so in a PM. If you want to tell us, those of us who doesn't know what was going on back then, then I suggest you PM Nagathi. I have left his post there, so he can give his take on the things, and as I understand it, you're "on the same side". The thread is locked, for now at least.

I'm sorry man. I hope you understand why I do as I do, and that I want to stay objective.

- Belial

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:28 am
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I endorse this message and declare that it is signed with my name with my consent.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:30 am
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Word to that.


Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:44 am
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I haven't been around lately but I'll still share a view. A post shouldn't be deleted for the reasons Nagathi said, but instead maybe just a little moderator edit with a little message at the end of the speech saying the moderators views. They shouldn't delete the entire post, we put valuable time into our posts (most of us at least) and for the post to be deleted is just plain wrong. I also don't want this message to be misconstrued the wrong way. I'm talking about the posts (which are deleted) which are not irrelevant. A post should only be deleted if it contains actual offensive material and/or is completely irrelevant from the topic. I'm quite certain that Nagathi's posts contain none of either party (that second last sentence is my own opinion).

However, I don't really have a problem with any moderators or administrators on this site, but the actions that they perform/ed, nothing more, nothing less.

Sign me up (as a short time member or whatever).

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:23 am
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Arnold Layne
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You'll perhaps pardon me - with reference to my joining date - but it seems from the outside that both sides of this argument are rather childish. You three were correct to contact the founders about this, but I think that this public complaint is a little premature, if indeed there should ever be a right time to take this sort of action. I feel that initiating such a petition really ought to be the sole prerogative of the founders themselves. It's their website, not yours, you know. I think you fellows have played out of turn with this.

Good luck to you all the same , though.

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Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
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Last edited by Layne on Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:36 am
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To be honest, looking at the picture that you posted (and not knowing the context or the previous statements) Andruillius' message comes off as being more than a little bit insulting, and borders on a personal attack against the mods. I have no idea what Nag said beforehand, but there are ways to be critical without being snide.

So while I understand what you are trying to accomplish, I have to say that in this instance the mods were perfectly within their rights to delete that particular post.

Blackfel

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:47 am
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Quote:
It's their website, not yours, you know. I think you fellows have played out of turn with this.


It's not the moderators site either but all sites need constructive criticism for them to build off and grow.

EDIT:
Quote:
So while I understand what you are trying to accomplish, I have to say that in this instance the mods were perfectly within their rights to delete that particular post.


So you don't know what he said, but you still think the moderators were within their rites? How can you still think that when you didn't even know the message to start with?

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Saldrimek Xenan - WS6 / S4 / T3 / D5 / I3

Equipment: Executioners Axe (Rune of Beastslaying - Heroic Killing Blow), 2 Scimitars (Rune of Speed - Always Strike First), Dagger, Rune Branded Leather Armour, Executioner Helm, Fine Set of Throwing Knives (x4)
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:47 am
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Arnold Layne
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Cool. Well, we're only guessing what's best as we go, you know. You're right about the need for constructive criticism, but I think in such a case it's the place of the people who run the place to ask for it. Publicly, anyhow, it's their place. Like I said, I think it was right to send criticism privately to the owners, but I think that this sort of public polling should really be initiated only by the owners, in an official Announcement or similar.

This was, in my opinion, a step too far - or too soon.

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Caveat Numptor.


Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite


Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:00 am
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I saw a few inflammatory posts, although I didn't delete them. When posts resort to personal attacks, they're not welcomed. As for the original post (not poster, Nag), do you really think we need to rehash old shiz? You were here when this place was a madhouse, some memories are best left buried.

Not entirely sold on the fact that this should be a thread, when you could have settled it in a private message. Seems to scream out Drama inc. I'm with you that it should be neutral, no matter what though.

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I'll just say that not a single succesful (note on succesful) open forum was ever a democracy.

Democracy is flawed at its base, and democracy with added immunity of anonimity is just pure fail.

The moderators are chosen by site admins to make sure the users adhere to the rules *as laid out by the admins* not as thought up by users..
If you believe the moderators have breached their own rules by deleting a post or some other form, you take it up with the higher-ups, in private.

Making posts like this will only create more antagony between you and the moderator in question and the simplest reaction you can expect is having their eye closer on you for slightest breaches of the forum rules.

Again, online fora are private property, and as such they are *not* democratic, even if some want to uphold an illusion of being such.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:10 am
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If I can just step in to try and lighten the mood here a little, I've been around perhaps a year longer than my join date likes to say (had another account before) so I am not completely new here. I can understand where you are all coming from, both the mods, angry old timers and joining-in freshers. But all I want to say is one thing, instead of arguing which as someone said can be quite childish, work something out in a simple way with the founders, then let us know how it goes.

After all, shouldnt we be saving our negativity for the high elves? :lol:


Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:13 am
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I'll have to look into what is going on and get back to people.

In the meantime, tonight, I am dealing with actual people sick and dying so lets keep it all in perspective...

However one thing to be said is that many of the moderators are chosen by the membership of Dnet. If the site is deteriorating we all, members and moderators have each other to blame.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:32 am
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Khel wrote:
So you don't know what he said, but you still think the moderators were within their rites? How can you still think that when you didn't even know the message to start with?

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear: the post I believe was intentionally inflammatory and deserved to be pulled was the one in the picture posted by Nagathi, which was written by Andruillius. I couldn't care less what was said before...posts should be taken on their own merits, and that one was out of line.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:40 am
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Forums don't need to be democratic, but everyone should deliver his/her thoughts freely. Surely Nagathi has a concern and he writes about it politely, and I see no harm in it.

I don't think that moderators are biased in their decisions on deleting moderating etc. but honest mistakes can be made.

As for the censoring issue, I think that posts involving offensive material should be subject to censoring but the rest be left alone. druchii.net people are generally polite and respectful, so I don't think that they would create a flaming marathon if they are allowed to write about anything they want to.


Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:43 am
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Arnold Layne
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mereghost wrote:
druchii.net people are generally polite and respectful, so I don't think that they would create a flaming marathon if they are allowed to write about anything they want to.


Unfortunately not always true. If it was, we wouldn't have moderators at all. You could perhaps go look up some of the old "what's in the new book" discussions from about, say, December last year onwards, right up until August 13, to get some good examples of what I mean. And I say this as someone who partook of such foolish discussions. Shame on me.

Yes, we're a kind of thought police at times, but we're not the KGB. We try to keep things reasonable and open, but we're human also. Plus reasonable and open are occasionally going to be mutually exclusive. That thread seems to me to have been getting near to that sort of problem.

Not having seen what was deleted, and having no knowledge of what it seems to have been in reference to*, I couldn't support either side in the argument. You're probably all wrong, and you can probably all benefit from a nice long cool glass of Step Back. Try it, every glass has a bit of perspective at the bottom, which as langmann said, is what's needed here.

*Before my time, and I never joined the chat anyhow.

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Caveat Numptor.


Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite


Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:58 am
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Alright guys, here's my views on it. Now, I know there are some moderators out there on either side of this issue so you know where it comes from.

We need to police the site to keep it friendly. Simple as that. Though we strive as hard as we can to be as flexible and friendly, sometimes things need to be deleted. I'm not fully briefed on what exactly occured but rehashing old drama from the past days of D.net is not going to bring anyone closure. Rork's thread was meant as a simple memoir, a time to reflect on the good and bad times of druchii.net and open up some discussion. It was not for rehashing old drama.

Also, let me mention that I'm 99% sure that no post was deleted without at least a proper PM sent as that is standard operating procedure.

What really bothers me is that a thread like this was even created. I dont think the issue was big enough to not have been covered in PM's.

In closing, I must say that I was hear for these times and really dont remember much of it. Maybe I wasn't high enough in the ladder, maybe yall just didnt like me (Ya, imagine that!) but either way, I think everyone needs to step back, take a deep breathe and remember that this is an Online Community. This isn't politics, everyone needs to stop acting like it is. A long cool glass of step back sounds pretty nice right now for me, how bout you?

-Rex

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:58 am
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It is a bit e-drama, but sometimes it's good to put it in the open and let random people not involve arbitrate, rather than try and sweep it under a rug through pm.

I've been coming here since 2002 (different names, accounts get lost, forget passwords, banned etc). This is an alright place. I've had disputes with people, but eh... I enjoy trolling sometimes, so no harm. The biggest problem I've seen is, over-zealous mods that feel they need to justify their existence as mods by jumping on every little thing, and that's not exclusive to here.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:02 am
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Quote:
a time to reflect on the good and bad times of druchii.net and open up some discussion. It was not for rehashing old drama


These things go hand in hand unfortunately, and as Rork was heavily involved in the drama, bringing up such a topic was bound to cause commotion.

Essentially, Rork brought back old Daemons that were never fully excorcised.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:37 am
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What is your intent, Nagathi (and others)? An internet uprising? A revolution of geek malcontent with their geek overseers?

This is not a democracy, but a meritocracy.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:35 pm
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I'd just like to point out that it is extremely convenient that someone managed to screenshot that post before it disappeared.

I'd also like to point out that of the posts deleted in that thread, mine was the first to go, on the request of Lethalis who felt I was attacking him. Pot, meet kettle.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:22 pm
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Newbie.... but with a lot of experience in managing forum.

So maybe a look at what the criteria are for removing posts is in order. There is nothing wrong with a review and realignment as well as an update to the FAQ and notification to the community – a reset. The criteria should be clear and concise. I would also think that if a post is a removed the moderator has a responsibility to post the reason for the removal, in the open, and what criteria was use. This is not only for that individual but for the rest of us who are new and are not sure where the boundaries are. There should also be an appeal process not a big deal but someplace a person can go for a review. But if the criteria is clear and the reason posted the appeal process should be limited.

These are the quality problems of a maturing forum… dissent no matter how it is perceived, should be embraced and not dismissed.
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:44 pm
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Quote:
This is not a democracy, but a meritocracy.

Irrelevant, because neither exclude open discussion of policy.

Quote:
So maybe a look at what the criteria are for removing posts is in order. There is nothing wrong with a review and realignment as well as an update to the FAQ and notification to the community – a reset. The criteria should be clear and concise. I would also think that if a post is a removed the moderator has a responsibility to post the reason for the removal, in the open, and what criteria was use. This is not only for that individual but for the rest of us who are new and are not sure where the boundaries are. There should also be an appeal process not a big deal but someplace a person can go for a review. But if the criteria is clear and the reason posted the appeal process should be limited.

These are the quality problems of a maturing forum… dissent no matter how it is perceived, should be embraced and not dismissed.


Very well put. Seconded.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:41 pm
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tmr wrote:
So maybe a look at what the criteria are for removing posts is in order. There is nothing wrong with a review and realignment as well as an update to the FAQ and notification to the community – a reset. The criteria should be clear and concise. I would also think that if a post is a removed the moderator has a responsibility to post the reason for the removal, in the open, and what criteria was use. This is not only for that individual but for the rest of us who are new and are not sure where the boundaries are. There should also be an appeal process not a big deal but someplace a person can go for a review. But if the criteria is clear and the reason posted the appeal process should be limited.

These are the quality problems of a maturing forum… dissent no matter how it is perceived, should be embraced and not dismissed.
tom

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The choice to delete posts was a fair one made by the moderator in question - he deleted several posts (including Arq's) to keep the thread on track.

In the spirit of that, I even went in and deleted my own reply to you post, Nagathi, to bring the thread back to some semblance of normality. Since Andy's post was (as far as I could tell) a response to the fact that my post remained despite the removal of yours it seemed reasonable to take that out alongside my own to ensure that the thread got back on track and showed no favouritism. Maybe I just misinterpreted what was said.

We do not strangle discussions, and it's a tad dramatic to say so. My post was intended as a look back over my six years - it was biased from the start by its very nature. If anyone expected the real story, it was the wrong thread to come to (not least because it does not take into account the vast tactical tome developed).

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:27 pm
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Corsair
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8575
Location: Hag Graef
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As I just explained somewhere else ("Six month" thread), I am really interested to read about the difficult and enthusiastic early times of our beloved D.net.
You old timers enjoyed the Frontier Spirit at that time. Reading your thread, it seemed quite a messy Far West.

Too bad the thread rose some bitterness.
As suggested, "you can probably all benefit from a nice long cool glass of Step Back".

Newbies would benefit also. I'd like to read more about the good/bad old times, how it resulted in present-day D.net.
Too bad Rork locked the "six years" thread.
Now nobody has a chance to erase what they feel unnecessary after drinking the so-called SB glass (very poetic expression).
And the story stopped.

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Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:04 pm
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