The Situation of Druchii.net - Admin's Response 08/11/28
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:28 am
We go to this length of making a topic devoted to the situation because we feel that the mods ignore our attempts at opening a discussion about the matter. Several of our posts have been deleted today, on false grounds that they were mudslinging. It has gone to the extent that we no longer feel PMs are enough to change the situation, which we find intolerable.
A good, democratic society is one where the people are allowed to criticize the rulers openly, pointing out their flaws for everyone to see so that the flaws can be corrected to the benefit of everyone. For the leaders, this will sometimes hurt. Yet if they choose to listen, it will only strengthen them; a good leader is one who is willing to take advice, not dismiss it as a principle. We wish this to apply to this website as well.
As an internet forum with anonymous users, Druchii.net is in a different position than Real Life societies, because some of the necessary basics are not present. That does not mean that democratic principles should be chucked away in their entirety. If users, like us, are speaking up and raise sincere concerns that the once-great Warhammer web community is moving in a bad direction, people should be concerned if the mods react by silently deleting their posts. It is hard to see how this can be viewed as anything but censorship to avoid dissidence among the members. As you can see in this picture, Andruillius tried to speak up today, but his post was deleted without any warning, explanatory post or PM.
Our statements are thus:
- The moderators at Druchii.net are strangling critical discussions, leaving the website a place where only positive posts, or posts totally in line with what the moderators want us to post, are allowed.
- The moderators of Druchii.net are given members differentiated treatments based on their status on their site. Our example here is Nagathi’s post about the history of the chats, which was deleted with the argument that personal views were not allowed and that the mod (Belial) wanted to keep the story as “neutral as possible”, while leaving Rork’s version of the story untouched.
- The moderators of Druchii.net are censoring attempts at speaking up against this practice.
Is this the Druchii.net Kitrik, its founder, wanted? Is this how this place should be managed? We don’t think so. While Druchii.net should have the same hierarchic structure as any other internet forum, its management should not censor criticism against its practices. If the mods cannot in a rational way explain their actions, but choose to delete posts without giving a message about why, something is fundamentally wrong. With this post we hope to make the mods realise that they should be more open to feedback from the Druchii.net members, and use the Delete Post function only when the content in a post is in no way constructive, not simply when someone criticizes the mods. While it is best to solve bipartisan disputes via PM, posts criticizing the mod’s decisions should not simply be deleted.
If Belial and other mods continue their practice, this thread will be deleted in short time. We hope it doesn’t; if the mods of Druchii.net share the democratic values which we cherish in free countries, other members of D.net should be allowed to speak up if they agree with us. If none do, so be it.
A copy of it is sent to Kitrik, langmann and General Kala to ask if this really is how Druchii.net should be. If they agree with the censorship practice, Druchii.net has verily changed into a website that we cannot identify with.
Signed,
Nagathi, Lethalis and Andruillius
Longtime members and contributors of Druchii.net.
*******************************************************
Administrator Response As Follows:
langmann, Webmaster Druchii Net
*******************************************************
Re: The 6 Years Thread and the Petition Thread
Ok I (langmann) have looked into this issue. Since this issue was brought into the open by all the people involved I will discuss my findings in the open. Some people may not like what I conclude here, but I have seen all the evidence.
Declaration of Impartiality
As webmaster and Admin here, I am impartial to what occured during the chatroom as discussed by Rork and Nagathi. I was not involved in the chat room nor have been. I am not a particular friend of Rork or Nagathi.
Findings
a) Belail is an impartial moderator. I have not had any complaints about him in the past. Belail was not around when the chat room issue being discussed occured and is unlikely to hold any bias in this area. I have had several PMs from users who are supportive of Belail as a moderator here. I have had no negative PMs.
b) The chat room issue primarily involves the decision to keep druchiinet chat from being merged with Endanal, a multi site chatroom. At that time a democratic vote took place inside the chat room itself. Vorchild I believe also moderated the vote at the time, not just Rork. Prior to the vote I entered the chat room and asked users several times during the day their opinion regarding a merger, which the majority did not support. The final decision of the democratic process was that the chatters wanted to be independent. There were some hard feelings as a consequence of the vote but in the end the majority spoke. As webmaster I could only act on that decision regardless of my own feelings or other people's feelings, and as webmaster I kept the chatroom private to druchii net - for better or worse.
c) Rork posted a thread entitled "6 Years" during which he discussed some of the events of the Druchii net lifetime. I cannot find any evidence that Rork intentionally attempted to start a flame war or insult other people in his thread. It is my honest opinion that Rork was simply reliving glory days.
d) Nagathi responded to Rork’s post in the 6 years thread. Nagathi’s own admission to me is that some of what he posted was offensive.
e) Belail realizing that the 6 years thread had turned into a nasty argument which was quickly turning Rork’s thread into a unintended re-hashing of the events surrounding the chat room issue as well as a thread containing personal insults, edited the thread out.
f) Belail then sent Nagathi, Arquinsel, and Lethalis a PM asking them politely to please re-edit their own threads without insulting Rork. (See Appendix 1 and 2) Belail did not ask them to refrain from discussing the chat room issue. Rather he asked them to not insult other members.
Concluding Statement
I find no evidence of censorship in the 6 years thread. Belail did not ask people to refrain from discussing the chat room issue. Belail asked people not to insult other people. Nagathi admits that some of his comments were insulting. Flaming and personal insults are not typically allowed on Druchii net as reviewed in the official site rules. Belail was acting as a responsible moderator in regards to that issue.
Secondly Belail asked people to edit their own posts, not to remove the discussion regarding the chat room issue, but to remove any insults. He asked them in a polite manner and with respect, in order to allow them to frame their response to Rork’s interpretation of the chat room issue in their own words.
Personal insults and attacks may occasionally occur here during heated debates. However those should not be a typical occurance at druchii net and it is in a moderator's perogative to keep the peace. As such Belail appears to have acted in a fair manner and I see no reason to lose confidence in his abilities.
Appendix 1: Belail's PM to Nagathi
Hey,
I'm sorry, but I will have to ask yuo to edit your post. Your post, and those of others, including our own Arquinsel, have taken a personal and negative tone, that I don't find fitting. I understand that back then, things got bad between some of you, and I understand it might feel like a slap in the face that Rork writes about it in a way that does not really represent your view. Whether you, Rork or someone else is right about how things were back then, I can't judge, as I don't know anything about that time, and what went on behind the scenes, and you are, of course, completely entitled to present a different view. But I hope you will do it in a more constructive tone. I think it's important, if Rork is indeed portraying it completely wrong, that you should be able to give your view on it. I'm not trying to censor your or anything. Just your language. If you are mad at Rork, then take it out on him in a PM. I have, since I'm doing a complete cleanup, removed the contents of your entire post. It's awaiting an edited version of your post, that I sincerely hope you will put there. Your original post is below.
I hope you understand why I do this, and that it's not easy for me. I want to stay objective.
- Belial
Appendix 2: Belail’s PM to Lehalis
Hey Leth,
Look. I don't know how things were back then. And I understand you might feel it like a slap in the face if Rork is indeed suggarcoating it, and twisting the truth. But please... Personal critique and attacks shouldn't be there. I have deleted your post, and Arq's reply to it which was no better.
I have also contacted Nagathi, for the same reason. If you disagree with how Rork is portraying it, and you feel the need to tell him, do so in a PM. If you want to tell us, those of us who doesn't know what was going on back then, then I suggest you PM Nagathi. I have left his post there, so he can give his take on the things, and as I understand it, you're "on the same side". The thread is locked, for now at least.
I'm sorry man. I hope you understand why I do as I do, and that I want to stay objective.
- Belial
A good, democratic society is one where the people are allowed to criticize the rulers openly, pointing out their flaws for everyone to see so that the flaws can be corrected to the benefit of everyone. For the leaders, this will sometimes hurt. Yet if they choose to listen, it will only strengthen them; a good leader is one who is willing to take advice, not dismiss it as a principle. We wish this to apply to this website as well.
As an internet forum with anonymous users, Druchii.net is in a different position than Real Life societies, because some of the necessary basics are not present. That does not mean that democratic principles should be chucked away in their entirety. If users, like us, are speaking up and raise sincere concerns that the once-great Warhammer web community is moving in a bad direction, people should be concerned if the mods react by silently deleting their posts. It is hard to see how this can be viewed as anything but censorship to avoid dissidence among the members. As you can see in this picture, Andruillius tried to speak up today, but his post was deleted without any warning, explanatory post or PM.
Our statements are thus:
- The moderators at Druchii.net are strangling critical discussions, leaving the website a place where only positive posts, or posts totally in line with what the moderators want us to post, are allowed.
- The moderators of Druchii.net are given members differentiated treatments based on their status on their site. Our example here is Nagathi’s post about the history of the chats, which was deleted with the argument that personal views were not allowed and that the mod (Belial) wanted to keep the story as “neutral as possible”, while leaving Rork’s version of the story untouched.
- The moderators of Druchii.net are censoring attempts at speaking up against this practice.
Is this the Druchii.net Kitrik, its founder, wanted? Is this how this place should be managed? We don’t think so. While Druchii.net should have the same hierarchic structure as any other internet forum, its management should not censor criticism against its practices. If the mods cannot in a rational way explain their actions, but choose to delete posts without giving a message about why, something is fundamentally wrong. With this post we hope to make the mods realise that they should be more open to feedback from the Druchii.net members, and use the Delete Post function only when the content in a post is in no way constructive, not simply when someone criticizes the mods. While it is best to solve bipartisan disputes via PM, posts criticizing the mod’s decisions should not simply be deleted.
If Belial and other mods continue their practice, this thread will be deleted in short time. We hope it doesn’t; if the mods of Druchii.net share the democratic values which we cherish in free countries, other members of D.net should be allowed to speak up if they agree with us. If none do, so be it.
A copy of it is sent to Kitrik, langmann and General Kala to ask if this really is how Druchii.net should be. If they agree with the censorship practice, Druchii.net has verily changed into a website that we cannot identify with.
Signed,
Nagathi, Lethalis and Andruillius
Longtime members and contributors of Druchii.net.
*******************************************************
Administrator Response As Follows:
langmann, Webmaster Druchii Net
*******************************************************
Re: The 6 Years Thread and the Petition Thread
Ok I (langmann) have looked into this issue. Since this issue was brought into the open by all the people involved I will discuss my findings in the open. Some people may not like what I conclude here, but I have seen all the evidence.
Declaration of Impartiality
As webmaster and Admin here, I am impartial to what occured during the chatroom as discussed by Rork and Nagathi. I was not involved in the chat room nor have been. I am not a particular friend of Rork or Nagathi.
Findings
a) Belail is an impartial moderator. I have not had any complaints about him in the past. Belail was not around when the chat room issue being discussed occured and is unlikely to hold any bias in this area. I have had several PMs from users who are supportive of Belail as a moderator here. I have had no negative PMs.
b) The chat room issue primarily involves the decision to keep druchiinet chat from being merged with Endanal, a multi site chatroom. At that time a democratic vote took place inside the chat room itself. Vorchild I believe also moderated the vote at the time, not just Rork. Prior to the vote I entered the chat room and asked users several times during the day their opinion regarding a merger, which the majority did not support. The final decision of the democratic process was that the chatters wanted to be independent. There were some hard feelings as a consequence of the vote but in the end the majority spoke. As webmaster I could only act on that decision regardless of my own feelings or other people's feelings, and as webmaster I kept the chatroom private to druchii net - for better or worse.
c) Rork posted a thread entitled "6 Years" during which he discussed some of the events of the Druchii net lifetime. I cannot find any evidence that Rork intentionally attempted to start a flame war or insult other people in his thread. It is my honest opinion that Rork was simply reliving glory days.
d) Nagathi responded to Rork’s post in the 6 years thread. Nagathi’s own admission to me is that some of what he posted was offensive.
e) Belail realizing that the 6 years thread had turned into a nasty argument which was quickly turning Rork’s thread into a unintended re-hashing of the events surrounding the chat room issue as well as a thread containing personal insults, edited the thread out.
f) Belail then sent Nagathi, Arquinsel, and Lethalis a PM asking them politely to please re-edit their own threads without insulting Rork. (See Appendix 1 and 2) Belail did not ask them to refrain from discussing the chat room issue. Rather he asked them to not insult other members.
Concluding Statement
I find no evidence of censorship in the 6 years thread. Belail did not ask people to refrain from discussing the chat room issue. Belail asked people not to insult other people. Nagathi admits that some of his comments were insulting. Flaming and personal insults are not typically allowed on Druchii net as reviewed in the official site rules. Belail was acting as a responsible moderator in regards to that issue.
Secondly Belail asked people to edit their own posts, not to remove the discussion regarding the chat room issue, but to remove any insults. He asked them in a polite manner and with respect, in order to allow them to frame their response to Rork’s interpretation of the chat room issue in their own words.
Personal insults and attacks may occasionally occur here during heated debates. However those should not be a typical occurance at druchii net and it is in a moderator's perogative to keep the peace. As such Belail appears to have acted in a fair manner and I see no reason to lose confidence in his abilities.
Appendix 1: Belail's PM to Nagathi
Hey,
I'm sorry, but I will have to ask yuo to edit your post. Your post, and those of others, including our own Arquinsel, have taken a personal and negative tone, that I don't find fitting. I understand that back then, things got bad between some of you, and I understand it might feel like a slap in the face that Rork writes about it in a way that does not really represent your view. Whether you, Rork or someone else is right about how things were back then, I can't judge, as I don't know anything about that time, and what went on behind the scenes, and you are, of course, completely entitled to present a different view. But I hope you will do it in a more constructive tone. I think it's important, if Rork is indeed portraying it completely wrong, that you should be able to give your view on it. I'm not trying to censor your or anything. Just your language. If you are mad at Rork, then take it out on him in a PM. I have, since I'm doing a complete cleanup, removed the contents of your entire post. It's awaiting an edited version of your post, that I sincerely hope you will put there. Your original post is below.
I hope you understand why I do this, and that it's not easy for me. I want to stay objective.
- Belial
Appendix 2: Belail’s PM to Lehalis
Hey Leth,
Look. I don't know how things were back then. And I understand you might feel it like a slap in the face if Rork is indeed suggarcoating it, and twisting the truth. But please... Personal critique and attacks shouldn't be there. I have deleted your post, and Arq's reply to it which was no better.
I have also contacted Nagathi, for the same reason. If you disagree with how Rork is portraying it, and you feel the need to tell him, do so in a PM. If you want to tell us, those of us who doesn't know what was going on back then, then I suggest you PM Nagathi. I have left his post there, so he can give his take on the things, and as I understand it, you're "on the same side". The thread is locked, for now at least.
I'm sorry man. I hope you understand why I do as I do, and that I want to stay objective.
- Belial