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The Situation of Druchii.net - Admin's Response 08/11/28
http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=58891
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Author:  Andruillius [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

Anderson wrote:
Can we just leave direct insults out of this?

Anderson wrote:
As it is right now you criticise us in an insulting way and obviously we are not willing to simply go along with that.

Could you please formulate what you think the direct insult is?
Anderson wrote:
(and for your information - we have never EVER shot constructive criticism down on this site).

This I find interesting, seeing as my defintion of shooting down constructive criticism is the same as not agreeing with it. Could you please define "shooting down constructive criticism"?

Author:  Mr. anderson [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:23 pm ]
Post subject: 

I quoted what I think of as a direct insult. Obviously it is not a very harsh insult, but in a constructive discussion that is enough to push the general tone towards agitation, and that is exactly what we are trying to avoid here.

Shooting down constructive criticism (not talking about this thread or constructive criticism about our moderating skills here though) is censoring it. Example: Someone posts a response to an army list, saying something along the lines of this "I think your RxB need a standard because...". We edit or delete the post because it does not fit our idea of how druchii *should* be played. Or we warn the user, ban them or do something along the lines of that. That is shooting down constructive criticism (the definition of constructive criticism is politely suggesting a change and giving reason for why you think that change would be a good idea).

At the same time: not agreeing with constructive criticism has nothing to do with shooting it down because we are perfectly entitled to our own opinion (going back to the previous example - maybe we do think that a standard in RxB warriors is not a good idea).

HUZZAH!

Author:  Comrade igor [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

Anderson wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
But I guess that shows how you view us and what preconceived understanding you have of us.


Can we just leave direct insults out of this? It is in your own interest to stay polite, seeing as the tone you choose right now makes you seem less mature and thus somewhat robs your claim of its basis.


Trying to portray how you think someone is viewing you in -not- an insult. Infact, if there ever was an insult, then that sentance would be the reply to it.

Author:  Nagathi [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:29 pm ]
Post subject: 

Anderson wrote:
Quote:
Why? Where do you draw the line? What is enough odd behaviour from the staff for us to comment on it?


The ones accusing us of not being fair are the ones who have to draw the line. If you don't like something, tell us.
I have drawn a line. But apparently Damnation (yeah, I preferred that name) didn't agree with where I drew my line, and therefore I wanted to know where he'd draw it.


Quote:
As it is now, it looks as though you are accusing the whole team of mods of global corruption if you will - and that does not work
Been there, done that. Left the site afterwards. :)

Unless given specific permit from the ones giving me information in private, I will not give details. All I want is for the staff of this once great site (I said "once" as I have only second-hand info to rely on for the last couple of years - plus this recent events) to consider if their routines for moderation needs to be looked over and perhaps refined. Less conservative, more dynamic. That's the recipie for a successful website as far as my research has shown. One needs to update, refine and be willing to hear suggestions to maintain a prospering website community. I'm not really getting that vibe from the staff these days.

Quote:
Quote:
But I guess that shows how you view us and what preconceived understanding you have of us.


Can we just leave direct insults out of this?
Was that directed at me or Damnation?

Quote:
and for your information - we have never EVER shot constructive criticism down on this site
Bold words, Anderson. I'd hate to play the big brother card, so I'd just let you know that you're wrong and leave it at that.

Quote:
As it is right now you criticise us in an insulting way and obviously we are not willing to simply go along with that.
I am not insulting. Someone unpartial and unbiased would probably not see my post as insulting. It is impossible to write down a tone of voice, so it is open for interpretation on your side. So if you interpret my tone to be of the insulting level, there's not much I can do but to deny that tone. I am being as polite as I can, and as open to your replies as I can. I'm doing my best not to bring up old stories of pain and whatnot, all to keep this dialogue clean. But all I hear back is "You're insulting, we're not gonna listen to you."

Try to re-read my posts with the mindset that I am not trying to insult. Does the tone change? I surly hope so, for I have rather important things I want to have discussed.

~ Naggie

Author:  Andruillius [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:32 pm ]
Post subject: 

I don't see what in Nagathi's post could be described as a direct insult, so I must insist on asking you to describe it with your own words, please.

And following your definition, could you please take a look at the picture in the first post and tell me how deleting it was not shooting down constructive criticism? Is it because you think my reply was unfair? Is it because you don't think there was anything to criticise? Or is it because I used a tone that could be perceived as negative towards the management? And regardless of these possibilities, do you think (in general) it is constructive to tell moderators not to censor posts by the users? If so, why should the post have been deleted when it contained constructive criticism?

Author:  Gnosis [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 

If you think you can come barging in here again and demand this and that be changed, I think you're better off starting your own Dark Elf community. In my opinion, there is little to discuss.

Author:  Mr. anderson [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:41 pm ]
Post subject: 

I won't describe what I think of as a personal insult. The idea behind this post was to keep everyone (including myself) as close as possible to a discussion where past events and personal feelings don't matter. Nothing more to discuss about that. And in regard to the picture - Rork already made a statement as to why that post was deleted, and that statement included an apology in case there was a misinterpretation.

And constructive criticism has not been shot down in the past two years I have been looking at this forum (though only actively posting for about one year), and these are the years that should be discussed, not what could/should/would have been in the other years before as that does not impact what is happening now in any way (if it is not revived in one way or another, but up to before the six year issue it hasn't made anyone make such a big drama of the moderating of D.net. problems were silently resolved via pm with the mods, and everyone seemed happy. And even now I can't see the whole community jumping up and saying "yes we should have protested against the situation for a long time").

Author:  Andruillius [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

If you as a moderator call someone out on personal insults, you should be able to explain how it is an insult. In fact, the rules tell you to edit or delete posts containing personal insults. Now, as you have neither edited the post in question nor are willing to explain how it was an insult, I would really hope you could withdraw the statement and admit you were a little too quick. If you want to be fair, then that should only prove it.

Author:  Nagathi [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:53 pm ]
Post subject: 

Anderson wrote:
And constructive criticism has not been shot down in the past two years I have been looking at this forum (though only actively posting for about one year)
Fine. Just felt like your choice of words ("we have never EVER...") was misleading, and I prefer things to be correct.

Quote:
and these are the years that should be discussed,
Agreed.

Quote:
And even now I can't see the whole community jumping up and saying "yes we should have protested against the situation for a long time").
Does that mean there are none who think like that? Or that those who do won't nspeak up for different reasons? Or because they decide to leave the site instead of trying to make a change?
I cannot say, but I'm letting you know that there might be more than one cause for the effect.

~ Nagggie

Author:  Nagathi [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

Andruillius wrote:
If you as a moderator call someone out on personal insults, you should be able to explain how it is an insult. In fact, the rules tell you to edit or delete posts containing personal insults. Now, as you have neither edited the post in question nor are willing to explain how it was an insult, I would really hope you could withdraw the statement and admit you were a little too quick. If you want to be fair, then that should only prove it.
And if you were to withdraw that statement, Anderson, no one would hassle you about it. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes. And we're all ready to forgive.

~ Naggie

Author:  Belial [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

Andruillius wrote:
If you as a moderator call someone out on personal insults, you should be able to explain how it is an insult. In fact, the rules tell you to edit or delete posts containing personal insults. Now, as you have neither edited the post in question nor are willing to explain how it was an insult, I would really hope you could withdraw the statement and admit you were a little too quick. If you want to be fair, then should only prove it.

Well, this I find rather interesting, as that was precisely the reason I removed Lethalis' and Nagathi's posts in the thread that seems to hae sparked this entire debate.

This entire discussion seems completely pointless. And while everyone should at all times speak up if they feel unfairly treated, I think this should just end here.
Your complaint was over the removal of your post, Lethalis' post and Andrullius' post. I believe the removal of Lethalis' and yours, which are the ones I did, has been explained. And admin has looked the matter over, and found nothing wrong with the way I did it.
It should be clear to everyone that "censorship" in any ways other than language, has never been my motivation. I was not part of the chatroom fight back then. I have no real first hand knowledge of it. I have no oppinion of it. I am, I think, as impartial a moderator on that subject as you could get. I even encouraged Leth and you to re-post your version of the story, but without personal insults. I even left your post there, so that you could quickly edit in your "clean" version. Which you have only just done now. I took long time to hear Leth's version of the story, your side if you will, so that I might understand what the real issue was. I reached out for co-operation. I got it, mostly from Leth. And then I find the mods, myself in particular, criticized at lenght in this thread. I never even touched Andrullius' post, which seemed to be what you were most pissed about, and while you had no way of knowing it wasn't me, you had no way of knowing it was me either.

I am, and will always be, open to discussion about whether we do our job fairly. But any such claims that we don't, should bring evidence or examples. You brought those, and they have more or less been explained. An admin has ruled in this matter, that I acted correctly. Case closed.

Author:  Slortor [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

Nagathi wrote:
First I want to let you know why I write "moderators" in a general term. It is based on the fact that we still don't know who deleted* Andy's post as seen on the image linked to in my original post of this thread. We know it must have been a moderator or administrator, but as Andy has not yet received a PM with any reasons for why his post was deleted, we cannot know who made this action - and thus I am reduced to having to talk about moderators in a more general sense.


not wishing to add fuel to the fire here but does this answer the question?
Rork wrote:
In the spirit of that, I even went in and deleted my own reply to you post, Nagathi, to bring the thread back to some semblance of normality. Since Andy's post was (as far as I could tell) a response to the fact that my post remained despite the removal of yours it seemed reasonable to take that out alongside my own to ensure that the thread got back on track and showed no favouritism. Maybe I just misinterpreted what was said.


reading this it seems to me that Rork is saying that he deleted Andy's post.

If this is incorrect and i should keep my nose clean please tell me.

Regards
Slortor

Author:  Langmann [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

Nagathi wrote:
nor are we really opposed to having parts of my blunt reply to Rorky cleaned up a bit.


The original petition you made named Belail as the moderator who acted unfairly. Therefore I addressed that moderator and issue.

It is perfect that it was addressed to your satisfaction. If anyone has any further complaints please feel free to email them to me directly, or another Admin of their choosing. The admins are listed on the front home page.

Quote:


What we are against is the idea that seems to lie within many moderators and administrators that thoughts outside their line of thinking and their box of reality should be removed on sight and not be investigated further. I may be a left-wing socialist and a liberal, but I find this fear of new ideas and new thoughts to be very conservative. And that is why we are questioning some (not all) of the actions made by mods and admins on this site.

As I told you in my private conversation to you, and you urged to display for everyone, I agree that some parts of my first reply to Rork was offensive. If a moderator finds a post where 1% of it is borderline offensive, is it normal praxis to remove the entire thing? Should it be? Why?

As an admin of another site, I agree with Belail that my post needed to be cleaned up. It is the way he did it that I react to. And when we speak up about it, those posts get deleted - this time without a PM being sent to anyone. I hope you can see where we're coming from when we feel this site is supressing those who question the authorities in light of all this.

I do not question this decicion here (except that you think no cencorship has taken place), but you missed our key issue, and I'd love to hear what you feel about that.

Regards,

~ Naggie


As I have already mentioned in my reply to this topic, I looked into what Belail did.

He found some stuff which you admit was insulting. He erased it and then politely asked Lethalis and yourself to edit your own posts with anything you wanted to say regarding the chat room incident. He only asked that personal insults were removed.

Therefore I am confused about the idea of censorship, yes Belail is censoring insults, but those are standard rules on all forums including your own.

Moreover Belail's emails to yourself and Lethalis were posted for all to see, not because I don't believe in keeping such things private but because you asked for this to be public.

It is a standard policy here that moderators will address posters by PM in regards to any actions taken. Belail did that. and did it politely and concientiously.

Now there seems to be some discussion about Andruillis' post which disappeared. I know nothing about that, nor does Belail. I can look into that issue if Andruillis wants me to. I ask that he sends me a direct PM. Today is my day to deliver babies so it may take a while.

Otherwise, I am happy that you find your personal issue with Belail resolved to your satisfaction. Welcome back to druchii net, I hope you find more here to do and contribute to as you did in the old days.

langmann
Webmaster Druchii net

Author:  Nagathi [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:04 pm ]
Post subject: 

It may seem pointless to you, but obviously not for us.

All I really want is someone to say "Oops. This whole thing could have been handled better. We shall not do it again."
As far as I'm concerned (on a personal level), the staff did the right thing but in the wrong way. I want someone to say that they'll look over the routines and make sure things go smoothly in the future. After lengthy discussions with Leth and Andy, I think we all agree that it is not the fact that you guys did something that makes us upset ("pissed" being Belail's choice of words), but rather how you did it.

If this was my site (and I'm not saying it is, nor that I wish it'd be, Damnation), I would have done similar ruliongs, but in a very different way.

~ Naggie

Author:  Notts [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:11 pm ]
Post subject: 

Just want to throw my spanner into the works here, without knowing (or giving a rats ass about) the internet feud that is obviously going on here, but this site is over modded.

A lot of discussion is stifled and it is extremely unwelcoming to new players. I started a thread on warhammer-empire to talk about DE because I don't really like the atmosphere of this site, and quite a few of the members over there agreed with me.

Author:  Nagathi [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

langmann wrote:
He found some stuff which you admit was insulting. He erased it
He erased the entire post. Not just the two lines that could be seen as insulting.

Quote:
Therefore I am confused about the idea of censorship, yes Belail is censoring insults, but those are standard rules on all forums including your own.
The "censorship" debate has more to do with the protests against the removal of Andy's post and the complete removal of my post while leaving Rork's untouched. I have tried not to point out Belail as a culprit in this, and I hope he does not feel as I have.

Quote:
It is a standard policy here that moderators will address posters by PM in regards to any actions taken. Belail did that. and did it politely and concientiously.
And here is where we mainly disagree. Leth and Andy says they didn't receive any PMs.

Quote:
Otherwise, I am happy that you find your personal issue with Belail resolved to your satisfaction. Welcome back to druchii net, I hope you find more here to do and contribute to as you did in the old days.
Thank you, sir. If only I still played Warhammer to the degree that I had any input worth contributing to the rest of the site.

~ Naggie

Author:  Belial [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

notts wrote:
Just want to throw my spanner into the works here, without knowing (or giving a rats ass about) the internet feud that is obviously going on here, but this site is over modded.

A lot of discussion is stifled and it is extremely unwelcoming to new players. I started a thread on warhammer-empire to talk about DE because I don't really like the atmosphere of this site, and quite a few of the members over there agreed with me.


I'm sorry to hear you think so. Perhaps you would like to elaboate? while this is not the thread to do it in, I welcome you to start a new one. If something si not as it should be with the site, we would like to hear it. If the issue is with moderators, than write it here, but please, bring examples. It's not a lot to work with if you just say: "Hey man, I don't like how this site is moderated, bye!"

Nagathi wrote:
The "censorship" debate has more to do with the protests against the removal of Andy's post and the complete removal of my post while leaving Rork's untouched. I have tried not to point out Belail as a culprit in this, and I hope he does not feel as I have.

Well, I did, but nevermind that.

Nagathi wrote:
And here is where we mainly disagree. Leth and Andy says they didn't receive any PMs.

This clashes oddly with the PM's included in the appendix of langmann's statement... While I had nothing to do with Andy, I did send Leth a PM when I removed his post. If what you mean is that I didn't send him a PM asking him to edit his post, then yes, you are correct. I decided to take swift action, so noone could be offended by Leth's post, and respond in an equally offensive manner. At the time it had already been done, by a mod, and I removed that too.

Author:  Rork [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

Rork wrote:
In the spirit of that, I even went in and deleted my own reply to you post, Nagathi, to bring the thread back to some semblance of normality. Since Andy's post was (as far as I could tell) a response to the fact that my post remained despite the removal of yours it seemed reasonable to take that out alongside my own to ensure that the thread got back on track and showed no favouritism. Maybe I just misinterpreted what was said.


That explains why Andy's post was deleted (from page 1). Now, I didn't pm Andy since I didn't feel it was necessary - I wasn't too pleased with how the thread was going so just deleted my own reply (to Nagathi) and Andy's to be done with it.

It was not intended as censorship since I treated both 'sides' equally. I was having an awful day and just deleted both posts to sort it out.

Author:  Langmann [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:02 pm ]
Post subject: 

Nagathi wrote:
langmann wrote:
He found some stuff which you admit was insulting. He erased it
He erased the entire post. Not just the two lines that could be seen as insulting.


I know that Nagathi, however as Belial explained in his email to you, he felt it was better if he let you re-edit your own post than him try and make the changes. In that way it would preserve the integrity of your post. It was too complicated for him to just delete a few lines. He also did send a message to Lethalis, which appears in the board's mySQL database. I don't know why he didn't get it.

In the Appendix are copies of the messages he sent. I have verified the sending of these messages in the mySQL database.

I think it was very noble of Belial to allow you to edit your own post rather than him do it. In that way you could make it sound the right way. Therefore I cannot see Belail being guilty of censorship.

As to what has happened with Andruillis' post, I see that Rork had admitted that he deleted it. It is the policy here for all moderator action taken that a PM is sent to the poster. This has been a policy here for a very long time.

I am sorry that Rork did not send Andruillis a PM. That was not correct Druchii net procedure. I think Rork recognizes this. Hopefully that will not occur again.

Author:  Lethalis [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:51 pm ]
Post subject: 

langmann wrote:
He also did send a message to Lethalis, which appears in the board's mySQL database. I don't know why he didn't get it.

Belial and I have had a flowing discussion via PMs, I didn't feel there was a message missing from this flow, could you tell me a bit more about this?

Quote:
As to what has happened with Andruillis' post, I see that Rork had admitted that he deleted it. It is the policy here for all moderator action taken that a PM is sent to the poster. This has been a policy here for a very long time.

I am sorry that Rork did not send Andruillis a PM. That was not correct Druchii net procedure. I think Rork recognizes this. Hopefully that will not occur again.

I remember him faithfully doing such things back when I was a moderator, I was surprised when I read he did what he did.

Rork wrote:
It was not intended as censorship since I treated both 'sides' equally. I was having an awful day and just deleted both posts to sort it out.

I can understand that, after having a bad day and this comes on top of it, you'd go for the quick and easy solution. I honestly can. But unfortunately, it doesn't excuse it - nor does treating both sides equally mean that they're treated well. If you can even call it equal, that is: you were informed of the deletion of your post, its precise reasons etc. Andruillius wasn't.

I don't know about the others (well actually I do know about Nagathi, since he stated the same above) but personally, I've discussed things with Belial via PM and MSN and I think we've reached a mutual understanding. We apologised to one another about how things spiralled out of hand. If I could have the same from you, I for my part consider this case dealt and done with :)

So here it goes; I'm sorry if my post(s) harmed you in any way - it wasn't my intention to come across as offensive to you, just to disagree and ask a question. I think Comrade Igor said it best: "Rork brought back old Daemons that were never fully excorcised."

Oh and there's that question about the monthly that's still lying in Six Years thread, unanswered ;)

Author:  Layne [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:02 am ]
Post subject: 

Quote and flame, breakfast, lunch and dinner....

I'll make myself crystal clear this time.

I personally think you three a lot of tom-fools, guilty of a terrible string of trolling and flaming, and as former mods here, and current mods elsewhere, you ought to know better. This is not a mod-group consensus, it is my own opinion. I make no excuses for it. I say it is my own opinion because I want it to be clear that none of the other mods are answerable for it.

Lastly, pride tastes better with golden syrup. Meditate upon it.

Edit : I see Lethalis is well on the way. Thank you, sir, it was a thing well done, and it's proved me wrong. So, my apologies to you too.

Author:  Lyhne [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:08 am ]
Post subject: 

Why do you all spell it "Belail". The I is before the A. Anyway.

I don't really know Nag, nor Andruilius, so I have nothing against those persons. Yet I believe you are overdoing this. We mods do what we believe is the better. If we find something that might be offensive, particularly if this is reported, we remove it. It this removes the essence of a post, then there is no reason to leave the post hanging as an empty box of filler.

The six years thread was written from Rorks point of view, so it is obviously the way he had interpreted the whole situation, and I doubt that he wrote it that way just to piss you off, but merely to inform people of the history of this, in my opinion, lovely site.

What I can't quite understand is why you had to do this in full public. Is it, as some of my co-mods have pointed out, to start a revelution? 'cause in my opinion, that is the silliest thing I've heard for a long time (also, I am sad to inform you that it would not have the same effect as in real life, seeing that we are in fact rather untouchable :roll: ). Jokes aside, this should all just have been solved between you and Rork, and there was no real reason to draw everyone else into this. Tonight, I had to send out a warning, to someone who, just like me, found all this to be way overdone. I think this, that I had to warn someone who agreed with me, to prove that we aren't as corrupt as you would like us to be. Which leads me on to:

I don't believe you should generalize us mods like that. It seems that what you are doing is:
1. Making a deletion of something, deemed inappropriate, into something huge, though it was an action by someone who acted perfectly as he should.
2. Taking it into public, though it belonged more private.
3. Blaming it on all the mods.

Personally, I feel that you are attacking all the mods, and I can not really see why, as I believe myself to be rather innocent in this matter.

Sincerely, in hope of your future cooperation, and that you will just cease this rather silly feud
-M. Lyhne
Mod.

Author:  Langmann [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:52 am ]
Post subject: 

Lethalis wrote:
langmann wrote:
He also did send a message to Lethalis, which appears in the board's mySQL database. I don't know why he didn't get it.

Belial and I have had a flowing discussion via PMs, I didn't feel there was a message missing from this flow, could you tell me a bit more about this?


Never mind then, I was under a false impression that Nagathi thought you didn't get a message due to this:
Nagathi wrote:
And here is where we mainly disagree. Leth and Andy says they didn't receive any PMs.

Author:  Lethalis [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:44 am ]
Post subject: 

That was a miscommunication on our part: I told him I had received no PM asking me to edit my post like you said I had (which is I think a miscommunication on your part).

Ah, fog of war :P

Author:  Mereghost [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:18 pm ]
Post subject: 

One thing I learned from this thread is that many of the mods are really cool guys who have astonishing skills in avoiding flamings.

Whether the old "big brother" people like you or not, I think you're doing OK.

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