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Post by Dark Alliance »

...for the continuation of our discussion :D


Tbh I haven't even looked at War Machine MKII yet. I'm still getting to grips with Hordes. Only been playing for 6 weeks and only played 6 games during that time.

I read a very good thread about the Typhon and how to use it, over on the PP Forums earlier.
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Post by Shockwave »

With Elylyth Typon is good as he gets upto 6 sprays if effected by Decimation (Not to mention pin cushion).

I'm assuming you've got Deathstalkers and Archers + UA along with 2 Strider units (+1 UA) with the intent to drop as much as possible on your turn 1/2.
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Amarel »

I picked up Warmachine (Cygnar) to play with the MKII ruleset and see how what changes it would probably bring to Hordes (my favoured system). The new rules are very good, much cleaner - and it's also clear that Meta was designed with them in mind, which is pretty handy.

I have copies of the Beta rules and stat cards, if you want to see them at any point (although you can't download them anymore PP haven't suggested that they shouldn't still be distributed).

But anyway, the Tourney :)... Being as I dropped Legion before the release of eLylyth I can only help with Circle & TB tactics against her (and I doubt I know more than can be learned on the PP forums, if i'm honest, but if I can help, yell :)).

is it a 750 tourney?

(Oh and don't forget VASSAL might help with cramming in the games if you don't have enough players around you).
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Post by Shockwave »

I'm guessing it would be, double caster tournaments are a 'mare.

I've had issues with Vassal, as in i'm thick and don't understand how to get it to work.


I disagree that Meta was designed with MKII in mind, PP have been quoted in saying that the likes of Meta (and Legends) were play tested and completed 1+ years before MKII was tested. Also, the power level of some of the things in Meta, is way higher than that of MKII, (EMorgoul, Molik Kharn).
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Dark Alliance »

Yeah it's 750pts. Bearing in mind I only took to the game a few weeks ago this is my current list. At least what I'm painting anyway!

eLylyth
Forsaken
6 Archers + UA
Striders + UA
6 Swordsmen + UA
Incubi
3 Shredders
Carnivean
Deathstalker
Seraph
Swamp Gobbers

After reading about the Typhon today I was also considering this;-

eLylyth
3 Shredders
Forsaken
Deathstalker
Striders + UA
6 Archers + UA
Typhon
Seraph
Incubi
3 Raptors
Swamp Gobbers


What is "Vassal"?
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Post by Amarel »

Vassal is a 'game engine', a fully modifiable gaming tool (e.g. it can be used to create landscapes, display models and positions and roll dice over t'internet, but the players have to supply the rules that constrain it). It can be downloaded here: http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php

Once it's installed, it can then load mods for various games. The WM/Hordes one can be found here: http://vassalwmh.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=55

Once that's loaded you can generally find players looking for a game / setup to play with someone in particular (and can lock the room or leave it open for watchers).

There's a thread on the PP forums about it: http://www.privateerpressforums.com/ind ... pic=173107 (so I guess PP don't mind that it exists. Some people only use it instead of buying figures, I'm sure, but many tend to only use models they have / intend to get).

Can be tricky to get working on a Mac (as the Mac aggressively unwraps zips (i.e. all levels) and the module needs to keep one of the zips inside the main zip, still zipped (if that makes sense))) but not too tricky on the PC once you have everything you need.
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Post by Amarel »

With regards to your lists, and take this with the knowledge that it's been a while since I played Legion (etc, etc, caveat, and so on :)) but while adding Typhon is a great addition, the loss of the Carni is going to be huge against some lists (I'm assuming this isn't going to be a Hordes only tourney?). Also, with the loss of the Swordsmen, I think you're losing a good incubi target for use in your own turn.

All that said, I do think the second list is a good one, and Typhon looks on paper to be amazing, but it does remove some of the safety net tactics that the first list allows.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

I think I agree with you about that. The Carni is such a durable beast but I also think the 'on paper' flexibility that the Typhon offers.

What do you think to the Angelius as that is the other swap option I have for the Carni in list 1. As for the Swordmasters, I do like them a lot. They hit hard and with the UA offer much valued magical attacks in case I have to face incorporeals.

The real problem I have is that there is more stuff I like than I have points available for...
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Post by Animatronicdemonskwerral »

So that was you replying to my typhon write up.

An Angelius is a sick beast. You may be tempted to throw him into melee right away, but experience tells me it's better to lurk a bit with him. I did my first game against another Legion list. We both had Typhon and an Angelius. The stars of that show were the Angelii. Anything thing they hit against a Legion or Circle army is usually a death sentence. Before Typhon was released I liked using the Angelius instead of the Carnivean because of the higher mobility threat from reach SP7 and ravenous, higher MAT, and fury efficiency. When going against hard targets 90% of the time you'll be using a Thrust attack which will negate any bonus attacks from eLylyth's feat. Against infantry you shouldn't need a Thrust though, so you will get a Decimation attack.

A carnivean is durable, but its durable by Legion standards. So don't expect him to survive any charges from juiced up warjacks/beasts or heavy cav. If he does thats great but in the 5 game's I've used a carnivean, he's never survived. I think this may have something to do with him being unpainted though.

As for your list. It's similar to what I used to run with eLylyth. The big exception is I never used archers. This was an economic decision on my part. Instead I ran 2 units of striders, one being incubi hosts, the other with the UA. I do think you're using 2 too many shredders. Drop them and add in another Deathstalker and use any excess to fill up the archers.

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Post by Dark Alliance »

Hey ADS, didn't realise you were on here too!

Yeah that Typhon write up is awesome dude, it gave me lots to think about and the incentive to build myself one.

Thanks for your comments on my list, I have been leaning a lot towards the Angelius this last week or so, and now that I get mine on Tuesday I should have enough time to get it painted ready for the GT on Saturday.

I'm using Archers for 2 reasons;- first because they are painted and second because I don't have any more Striders. I suppose eventually I will get more but after this event I shall probably build up my beasts more as I experiment with Thagrosh.

That's until Absylonnia is released of course!!

So what kind of list are you running these days?
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Post by Animatronicdemonskwerral »

Yeah an angelius can get around the best and into places where people don't want them to be or where they didnt expect it to go. They also seem to have some sort of ultra plot armor and can get put down to one health and then the opponent cant seal the deal.

I jokingly call Archers an Easy Mode: Point and Click unit. However, that isn't such a bad thing, because quick flanking solo's (pistol wraiths) and cavalry can roll them up pretty solidly. Just keep an eye out for crazy things like thrown drahkuns and what have you.

I mostly do League games but theres 3 lists I use. The best thing to do is to play as many games against as many different players as possible. A lot of the times losses are better than wins because they make you look at what at went wrong and where to go from there.

My favorite list:
Rhyas
Typhon
Angelius
Nephilim
Seraph
Forsake
Shepherd
2 x Death Stalkers
2 x Warchiefs
3 Raptors
Swamp Goblins

Against Hordes I like to bust out Saeryn. Essentially the Rhyas list but swap out the nephilim, warchiefs, and shepherd for 2 forsakens, bone grinders, and a seraph.

I ran this eLylyth today against a rusty, but very good Skorne player.
eLylyth
Typhon
2 x Seraphs
Shredder
2 Deathstalkers
2 x Strider units (one with UA)
Incubi
Forsaken
Swamp Gobbos
I honestly have a lot of trouble with eLylyth. A lot of the times it feels like she's a fury hog, and Rhyas can run the list better because Rhyas adds about 5000 lbs of pressure into a needle point. Other times I feel like I have 6 too many striders and wish i had archers. However, today Incubi really shined out and I was able to win it through scenario by having mobility.

Good luck.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

That Rhyas list looks nasty. Massacre ia a great animus for you, as well as that Typhon/Rhyas feat tactic you wrote about!!

Interesting you use Warchiefs without Warmongers. I knida figured it was better to include both in a list. Any insight you would care to share?

I tweaked my list to this;-

eLylyth
Shredder
Shredder
Seraph
Angelius
Forsaken
Incubi
Shepherd
Deathstalker
Archers + UA
Striders + UA
Swordsmen + UA
Swamp Gobbers

It feels a lot better now. Will get to test it out against Trolls on Tuesday so I at least get one game with it ahead of the GT!!
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Post by Animatronicdemonskwerral »

Interesting you use Warchiefs without Warmongers. I knida figured it was better to include both in a list. Any insight you would care to share

It is better to run the unit + solo together. However it came down to money. The Warchief and Deathstalker solos allow to me to bring the same aspects as their parent units, but with a smaller foot print with some added special abilities, for a little less cash than a whole unit. There's some more flexibility in solos, because they arent constrained by unit formations, and don't need to worry about their Leader getting picked off.

You're list looks like it would do great against Trolls. You may want to change up the swordsmen+UA for something after that though. Khador and Menoth have a lot of drifting AoE's and they love Legion's infantry. I was gonna say more beasts but she's a fury 5 warlock. The best option would be Warspears, but they are not out yet. If you cut the Swordsmen UA, then Bone Grinders could work well, because they add 3 to spell range for pin cushions and snare. A lot of the times you just need to bang away incorporeals or make something stay still with Snare. However, the game is designed for lines to close in, so sometimes that +3 range will just be a waste.

In all honestly, I don't get Lylyth sometimes. There are times when I went to go nuts with her bow and spells, but it leaves her with no fury to transfer damage.
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Post by Shockwave »

Typically all you'll need to do is cast/ Upkeep (Both) Pin Cushion and take your 4 bow shots (No boosts) this would leave you 1-2 for transfers, Gobbers should help you be a bit more aggressive though.
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Dark Alliance »

Right then, for better or worse I have settled on a list for this weekend. Borne out of painting time more than anything else really.

eLylyth
Shredder
Seraph
Angelius
Incubi
Forsaken
Shepherd
3 Raptors
Deathstalker
Archers + UA
Striders + UA
Warmonger Warchief
Swamp Gobbers

I figure it's a good list to take advantage of Lylyth's feat which means I can focus on what my list does, rather than try to cram up on all of the horrible combos all the other armies can do against me.

Looks like I'll be spending a lot of time in the bar!!
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Post by Animatronicdemonskwerral »

Typically all you'll need to do is cast/ Upkeep (Both) Pin Cushion and take your 4 bow shots (No boosts) this would leave you 1-2 for transfers, Gobbers should help you be a bit more aggressive though.

Yeah that's just it. a lot of the times pow 12 just doesnt seem to cut it, even with pin cushion. However, i think it is because when i used eLylyth in League games i got Death Valley 3 out of the 5 times i used her. You basically only play on the center 24x48 strip and my local group has 8 cygnar players that like to run arcane shielded cav.
Right then, for better or worse I have settled on a list for this weekend. Borne out of painting time more than anything else really.

Raptors are awesome! They should be right up any Dark Elf players alley.
Heres a tip: Warchiefs make better bowling balls to knock down small based infantry than actual combat models. Run them into troop clusters then have your seraph slam him in the back with slipstream active. Slammed models move through smaller bases, and anything they move through is knocked down and takes a small collateral damage roll. There's no attack roll for collateral, so things that are triggered on to hit rolls (shadowshift) don't happen. Slipstream allows you to angle the slam, so it can go at weird angles, like around corners. You also run the chance of slamming the warchief behind enemy lines to force abomination checks on support models and units.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

That is an awesome idea with the slam! I love this game more and more all the time. Dude I've learnt more about tactics/tricks in the last few days ... cheers! I've used the Raptors in most of the few games I've played and I have to say they are what Dark Riders ought to be.

Just got an Angelius and the Warchief left to paint now. A little bit of basing and away we go!!
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Post by Amarel »

I rather like your final list; Angelius is simply an amazing beast and the Raptors are great fun.

You've got most everything in there that I worry about facing :p
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Thanks. Let's hope I can figure out how to use it before the weekend!

How have you seen the Angelius used? What are the most effective tactics people use?
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Post by Shockwave »

The Angelius is most frequently used as a killing blow on Medium to Large based stuff, It will never be able to take out a Heavy Jack in one turn, a Medium, maybe.

First you need to create a "Landing Pad" for it next to it's chosen target (Raptors and Archers are good for this), with reach you can afford to not get too close. Your chosen target (Hopefully a 'lock or 'caster) should have taken some minor damage (1-5 say) Angelius flies in, lands at its designated spot, and *Attack Thrust it's victim.

Hopefully, the target would of been knocked down due to the Warchief being Slip-Slammed into it thus you should not need to boost the attack rolls. Spend additional fury on attacks at P+S 14.

Obviously, if they are camping Focus or Fury, this may very well not be enough. But versus alot of Warlocks, you should be dice for damage, Versus Warcasters it would be dice-2 not including Focus.

This being a Mark 1 game, and i'm assuming mixed Warmachine and Hordes. Beware of Darius and E-Vlad.
Darius will run 2/3 Centurions, which while it shield is still active, you CAN NOT charge. Be fully aware of what Full Throttle and Jackhammer does. and Also beware of the fact that by the time the Centurions activate they can be upto 7" away from where they were at the end of your turn due to his Crane.

Against E-Vlad, i can't help other than, Beware his feat, Manhunters and Flying Drakhuns. And do not Deploy Lylyth on the front line if Widowmakers are present (You'll live, but pretty much lose your beasts, which means you've lost).
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Animatronicdemonskwerral »

The first reaction many have is to just throw the Angelius right down your opponent's throat. However, this usually leads to him getting ganged up on and killed pretty early on, because he's frail. It's about knowing where and when to strike with him. He works the best when he can kill something then disengage or engage something new with ravenous. He can be a nightmare for low mat units without combined melee attacks. Ravenous is triggered anytime he makes a kill with a melee attack. So if they try to disengage, any freestrikes that land kills allows him to move. Pretty good trick for tying up shooting units is to run him straight into the unit and if they move away, he follows them with ravenous. Then in your turn the angelius can disengage freely. In your list, I would keep him back a bit and hang by Lylyth, and use him to engage anything that breaks through your Strider skirmish line. Use him to snag up any hard flanking units like Cavalry, or use his ranged attack to pick off stealth solos like manhunters.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Thanks for the tip buddy.
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Post by Amarel »

The Angelius is a nightmare to face for Trolls (as they have limited shooting options, tend to brick up for buffs and LOS blocking, and have low Def / high Arm (so Thrust + Ravenous can turn into carnage)).

As recommended above, despite the fear he causes, be wary of getting overly-confident with him and making him an early target. Hold back with him a little until the opportunity to get into a relative soft spot / softened spot presents itself.

Also, with only the Angelius and Raptors on large bases I'd be tempted to keep them within range of each other (but this is a general point, not one from specific experience).
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Thanks to all your tips and the excellent Typhon article I had a ball at the event. I'll try and get some kind of an overview up this week.

One thing I learnt - Rhyas + Typhon + feat = dead enemy casters!
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Post by Voiddisciple »

Hot dog, nothing like reading about Dark Elves AND Whoremachine on the same forum!
Has anyone taken a look at the MkII mercenaries yet? Just curious if my favorite dirty sellswords have made a competitive comeback. I would love it if the Devil Dogs or Boomhowler's crew would see more table time.
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