204 years today

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204 years today

Post by Calisson »

21 octobre 1805 -> 21 octobre 2009

204 years since the French frigate Le Redoutable, commanded by captain Jean Jacques Étienne Lucas, got rid of the French Navy's worst enemy in history: admiral Nelson.
We never faced anyone like him since.

French sailors commemorate! :twisted:
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Post by Slortor »

shame about the rest of the fleet... and his ship...

and the battle... and the war... (twice)

anyway Nelson is more famous because he died - there were numerous admirals as good or better :)

but hey - dont let me spoil your celebrations
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Post by Venkh »

The French crew were about to board the Victory when HMS Temeraire intervened, firing on the exposed French crew at point blank range. At 1.55 pm, the Redoutable, with Captain Lucas severely wounded, and only 99 men still fit out of 643, was essentially defenceless. The Fougueux attempted to come to her aid but came afoul of HMS Temeraire. After it was ascertained that she was too damaged to survive after the battle, the Redoutable struck her colours.

The Victory had 160 casualties, and the Temeraire, 120. The Redoutable sank the next day.


About as close as the French ever got to a victory over us Brits ;)

Still you managed better than us Scots against the English....
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Post by Red... »

We never faced anyone like him since.


Have you been involved in any major naval battles since?
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Post by Slortor »

i think the question should really be...

have you been involved in any major battles since?

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html
Name: Khalia D'Vaarko (meaning: Khalia, property of Vaarko)
Age: 210
Height/Weight: 5'6", 8 stone
Other: no distinguishing features, barring the brand of a great house left wrist.
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Equipment: Robes, Dagger, Staff
Skills: Power of Ulgu, Power of Chamon
Stats: Ws3, S3, T3, D4, I5

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Post by Calisson »

deathknight27 wrote:[Have you been involved in any major naval battles since?
Major to that point, not many.

Naval power involves much more than naval battles.
French naval officers' initiatives led to the conquest of Senegal, Congo, Cochinchine (present Vietnam). Not naval battles, but major events however.

There were some lesser naval battles in Dardanelles straights (with the Brits), in Adriatic sea during WWI (against Austria), followed by major sweeping operations off the coasts everywhere.

During WWII, there was an attack against Italy before the cease-fire; then, dramatically, the Brits attacked the French fleet in in Mers-el-Kebir. This one naval battle was major, and prevented many French sailors to join De Gaulle free forces in the UK. What remained of the French navy kept fighting on both sides (a naval victory in Dakar to mention against the Brits, otherwise participation of the Free France forces to fights against the German). Again, a major minehunting effort after the war (still ongoing).

More recently, skirmishes in Vietnam rivers during our Indochine (Vietnam) war. Amphibious assault in Suez in 56 along with the Brits and Israeli: a major military prowess resulting in a political loss to the will of the two superpowers.
Then again, operations less intensive than naval battles; nuclear deterrence with SSBNs (that is a majormilitary effect, but not a battle). Many operations in Persian Gulf since the "oil war" in 87 (not a battle but with major effect on the economy of the world), and quite often some operations near Lebanon.
The most recent actions are last year's anti-piracy operations in the Indian Ocean (Ponant, Carré d'As, Tanit: 3 sailing ships taken back from pirates), nothing that major military speaking, but the effect are major: "no shipping, no shopping", more than 3/4 of world's trade goes by sea, it's vital to our economy.

That is all I can think of by memory, but I could find more in books.


Slortor wrote:i think the question should really be...

have you been involved in any major battles since?
That's another story. Land battles.
Well, never again since Napoleon were the French able to conqueer Europe from Spain to Moscow (did anyone else in the whole History?).

Your link about French bashing is quite funny indeed, not only about the fancy way it depicts events but even more about what it tells about the writer.
We don't have in France this way of depicting US wars. There are not as few as one may recall, and there are all victories, of course: against mighty technologically advanced Indians (forget Custer) and heavily industiralized Mexico, to remind the most significant in American early History (which would have not start to exist without the French Navy, by the way).
The US did fight pirates in Algeria (the moorish wars), with long time Americans like O'Bannon. The problem was not solved until the French conquerred Algeria.
Frenchmen were truly glad that in 1914, sorry, 1915, er, 16? ah 1917, when everybody was exhausted, the US tilted the victory to our side with fresh troops. We were glad that the US went to rescue European democracies as soon as WWII started - or was it only after Pearl Harbour? Vietnam war followed Indochine war and saw only US victories, as we all know, just except for the result.
Cold war was won by the US, everyone agrees. What a fight!
Ah, yes, recently, the over-mighty US force (1/2 of the Earth's military spending) was able to invade the mighty Irak, in a pre-emptive action for the terrorist links with Al Qaeda, er no, that was because Saddam Hussein was on the verge of making a nuke, as Colin Powell brillantly demonstrated, or anyway for whatever reason who cares (the French care?), Irak was invaded, another US quick victory.
And there is Afghanistan still ongoing, where the US have casualties like the Danes (many more Danes died than US relatively if you compare to the population), Brits, Canadians, French, Germans, Italians, sorry for those who I forget, there is hardly one day when no one from Nato dies there.
Last edited by Calisson on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Zardock »

So what you're saying is... there were battles where the french didn't surrender preemptively? My god my mind has been clouded by british propaganda for so long. ;)
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Post by Calisson »

Indeed.
British anti-French propaganda happens only because it's British righteous pride to claim to be able to beat the French. Who would care if they claimed to be able to beat the Zulu?

US recent French bashing came because, unlike UK or Australia, the French did not believe blindly all the preemptive reasons to go to war against Irak (links to AQ, and when it appeared that Saddam was actually fighting against AQ, the pretext became the alleged nuke program). Many Americans today still don't care who was right but just who did not followed their enlightned leader who had declared "we will fight the terrorists and whoever trained them" (the last part of the sentence was erased after they realized the terrorists did not train in Canada as initially thought, but in Florida - end of Canadian bashing and Canadians were even pardoned not to go in Irak).
That dissention did not prevent France to participate in the early days and ever since to the war in Afghanistan.
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Post by Zardock »

Oh I am totally against the so called 'War on Terror' and everything the western world has done in the last 70-80 years, including the monetary system.

I am of the mind that the military should be abolished, it is an outdated practice, as is money. They are barbaric systems and we do not need them in todays society, we have progressed far to much to still rely on killing to achieve things on this Earth.

Oh well I guess it's the world we live in where we celebrate the death of other human beings?
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Post by Gethsemane »

Calisson: Slortor (a Brit) posts a humorous bash of French military history (which isn't made by an American) and you choose to what... redirect towards the US because it's the cool thing to do when you're French or something? Just seems poorly played to me.
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Post by Dalamar »

Alright, lets stop it right here before a history celebration thread turns into political bashing.

These are touchy subjects and very flammable.

Please keep it on topic (French naval victories)
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Post by Slortor »

Gethsemane wrote:Calisson: Slortor (a Brit) posts a humorous bash of French military history (which isn't made by an American) and you choose to what... redirect towards the US because it's the cool thing to do when you're French or something? Just seems poorly played to me.


Who cares about the USA - they're a third rate naval power anyway ;)

In regard to the empire point by Calisson - I think you're right, no-one has ever conquered europe to such an extent but in terms of empires Napoleons was pretty small as they go. Alexander the Great's was probably bigger (cant say im sure about that). The Islamic Caliphate circa 700AD was a heck of a lot larger as was the Mongolian empire of the 13th century.

Lastly - if the humerous french bashing website was not appreciated then I apologise, personally i find it amusing.
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Post by Archdukechocula »

French bashing is a bit played out. Calisson just made a benign post celebrating an old military event. He didn't really bait anyone. People just went right at it basically just because it's the French, conveniently ignoring good chunks of relevant periods of French prowess. Every country looks silly under the limelight, and a good ribbing is all well and good from time to time, but people were kind of dog piling in the thread. Really, all any European country ever did militarily on a large scale was conquer non-industrial third world countries, or perhaps temporarily hold a chunk of Europe for a few years. France is one of the few that can even make that particular claim. Why people single out France so often I have no idea.

There have been few military geniuses capable of merging military, economics and politics in such a way as to make an effective national machine capable of genuinely impacting their equivalent enemies. Nearly all of those individuals were complete a-holes.

Besides, it's not like any of us have actually done anything of substance, so it's a bit silly to piss all over the French. They surrendered during WW2. We get it. Really, can you blame them after WW1? Besides, so did most people that got invaded by the Germans. At least the French Resistance had the balls to fight on in practically suicidal conditions despite the fact that by all appearances their efforts were seemingly futile for a good stretch of the war. The French and the Serbs were about the only two nations to form an effective resistance to occupation. I think it's time to let that one go.

'Sides, most Frenchmen were too busy getting it on with hot French women to worry about conquering the world. What kind of idiot would rather go out invading random countries when they could be doing that? Having been to France, I say they had the right idea! ;)
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Post by Dalamar »

The French and the Serbs were about the only two nations to form an effective resistance to occupation.


And the Poles, but nobody talks about that because anyone who was part of the resistance was put in jail by Soviets after war <.<
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Post by Venkh »

I think we harp on about the French because we dont want to admit to being conquered by the Dutch (Willy Orange).

I dont think anyone else can claim that particular honour.
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Post by Calisson »

@ Zardock
History shows that there is always some military people in your country. If it is not your own, it's your invader's.

By the way, it's the second time you mentioned French pre-emptive surrendering in a thread I created in less than a year, I find it less funny each time. And always off topic.

@ Gethsemane
Did not realize the author was Brit. Sorry. I would have just ignored it, of course!
I would have tuned my reply differently, sorry about a few Americans I may have slightly offended in the process.
In France, it is fashionable for the elite to criticize the US, while the people loves America (except G.W.Bush).
I do recall the song of French popular singer Michel Sardou:
Si les Ricains n'étaient pas là - nous serions tous en Germanie - à parler en je ne sais quoi - à saluer je ne sais qui.
(If it was not for the Americans - we would all be in Germany - speaking who knows what - saluting who knows who)
By the way, I have some family with US citizenship.

Also, please note that I do find that the site is humorous. Just be careful to understand it is not to take for truth.

@ Dalamar
I don't pretend Trafalgar was a French naval victory! On the contrary, it was a brilliant British victory.
I just wanted to tell that, thanks to the fighting spirit of one French ship, a good side-effect was obtained, so not only the Brits can celebrate that day.

@ Slortor
Gengis Khan conqueered a larger Empire.
The Roman had a very long lasting one and incredibly extended.
Ths longest lasting large Empire is the Chinese (still ongoing).

@ Archdukechocula
Thanks.
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Post by Zardock »

@Calisson : To my memory that is the first time I have mentioned it mate, I know someone else has brought it up before, I apologise, I meant no offence.

Calisson wrote:Ths longest lasting large Empire is the Chinese (still ongoing).


I'd say only in terms of population, the great thing about the chinese empire is that it didn't need to go out and conquer other nations to sustain it's economy for a long time. It was largely self contained and sufficient. Not so much now though, seeing as they have massive trade deals and such.

Also Calisson, you mentioned the Brits shooting at French naval ships in WWII, but weren't we on the same side? (or was it a mis-understanding?)
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Post by Calisson »

1. Actually you quoted it, you did not bring it yourself. No big deal.
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=758053#758053

2. There are two sorts of Empire.
The long lasting one is solid, self-centered Empire which consider anything around is just made of scarce barbarian tribes not worth even to pay attention. It grows up very slowly, by absorbing surrounding people when they become "civilized" enough to be absorbed. When a nomadic tribe conquers that empire, usually their leaders get civilized and are absorbed.
Chinise are like that. They absorb Tibet because they think they are worth to be consider chinese, but they don't care about far conquests. India and Iran are like that as well, and pretty much as old. The Roman Empire did not start like that but, when it became an Empire, it ceased to grow and pretended to assmilate all the citizen, so more or less became also of this kind.
In WH fantasy, this is the way the Empire is thought.

The other kind of empire is short-lasted. It is made by a brilliant war leader exploiting a superior technique. They conquer huge surfaces but it lasts not much.
Examples are Alexander the great, Gengis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler. Known by the leader rather than by the name of the Empire itself.
The European colonial Empire were somehow of this kind: quick conquests thanks to superior technology, not trying to assimilate populations, and finally not lasting very long.


3. As for Mers el Kebir in July 1940, sadly 1300 French sailors were killed at anchor by a British Fleet, because the Brits feared that the French Fleet could joind the Germans instead of remaining neutral as of the cease-fire agreement stipulated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_ ... K%C3%A9bir
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Last edited by Calisson on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zardock »

Ah so it was a misunderstanding, of the worst kind... Really that is quite tragic...
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Post by Calisson »

see edit.
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Post by Slortor »

Calisson wrote:History shows that there is always some@ Slortor
Gengis Khan conqueered a larger Empire.
The Roman had a very long lasting one and incredibly extended.
Ths longest lasting large Empire is the Chinese (still ongoing).


I said the Mongols didnt I? ;)
to be fair their empire lasted quite a while - as far as I recall their empire goes on at least 4 generations.

I did consider the Romans, and while they are one of the longest empires in history (the Byzantine Empire being the other) I didnt put them in the first post because the size of their empire wasnt on the same scale as the others I mentioned.

Interesting view on the chinese - the question really is whether China could be considered an 'empire' int he strictest sense, as that would usually be one country dominating others, China just makes the other countries part of China - more like expanding their borders than creating an 'empire' i would say...

I wouldnt dismiss the colonial empires so fast either. Some of the major ones last at least two hundered years, the British and Spainish empires most noticably. Interesting discussion though.
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Post by Archdukechocula »

Slortor wrote:Interesting view on the chinese - the question really is whether China could be considered an 'empire' int he strictest sense, as that would usually be one country dominating others, China just makes the other countries part of China - more like expanding their borders than creating an 'empire' i would say...


There is a reason it was called Imperial China. China is composed of about 22 major ethnic groups, as well as a bunch of minor ones. Usually an empire is one that controls regions of other ethnic or culture groups. China has thus been an empire four about 2200 years, since the Q'in conquered what was then China (about half or so of modern day China IIRC). Over time, the Chinese progressively conquered more and more territory, even controlling parts of Vietnam, Korea, Russia, India and all of Taiwan. I think it was like the 4th or 5th biggest empire ever or so.
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Post by Red... »

deathknight27 said:
[Have you been involved in any major naval battles since?


Major to that point, not many.

Naval power involves much more than naval battles.
French naval officers' initiatives led to the conquest of Senegal, Congo, Cochinchine (present Vietnam). Not naval battles, but major events however.

There were some lesser naval battles in Dardanelles straights (with the Brits), in Adriatic sea during WWI (against Austria), followed by major sweeping operations off the coasts everywhere.

During WWII, there was an attack against Italy before the cease-fire; then, dramatically, the Brits attacked the French fleet in in Mers-el-Kebir. This one naval battle was major, and prevented many French sailors to join De Gaulle free forces in the UK. What remained of the French navy kept fighting on both sides (a naval victory in Dakar to mention against the Brits, otherwise participation of the Free France forces to fights against the German). Again, a major minehunting effort after the war (still ongoing).

More recently, skirmishes in Vietnam rivers during our Indochine (Vietnam) war. Amphibious assault in Suez in 56 along with the Brits and Israeli: a major military prowess resulting in a political loss to the will of the two superpowers.
Then again, operations less intensive than naval battles; nuclear deterrence with SSBNs (that is a majormilitary effect, but not a battle). Many operations in Persian Gulf since the "oil war" in 87 (not a battle but with major effect on the economy of the world), and quite often some operations near Lebanon.
The most recent actions are last year's anti-piracy operations in the Indian Ocean (Ponant, Carré d'As, Tanit: 3 sailing ships taken back from pirates), nothing that major military speaking, but the effect are major: "no shipping, no shopping", more than 3/4 of world's trade goes by sea, it's vital to our economy.

That is all I can think of by memory, but I could find more in books.


Impressive :) As a fellow military historian/enthusiast (as I suspect many of us on here are!) I applaud both your historical knowledge and passion for the cause :)
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