HE players want rewrite! What do you think?

Naram sin · Post by **Naram sin** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:37 pm

Ok mybe thhey arent strongest but one of the stronger, have you ever fought with HE army with 3x2lv mage 4lv mage in a forest and 4 RTB and spear and bow elves - I wish you luck

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:33 am

as long as you play the army in the way it is intended.

mmm, interesting that DA hit on this point, the HE certainly dont need a rewrite, as they are one of the more powerful lists out there, so long as ur not trying to kill CW with spears while the swordmasters get caught up in maurders.... its all about maxing potential.... having sed that tho, i dont think the DE need a revision either, because they are also powerful

as long as you play the army in the way it is intended

too many druchii players i watch try and shoot heavy targets with the rxb, too many expect spear elves to hold up dwarfs and CW, too many druchii play straaight up the middle and complain when their army cant go toe to toe with combat specialists, the thing is, no one ive seen plays like a druchii, what happened to traps and luring units in to be flanked on several sides at once, in the last 2 yrs of playing druchii i dont think ive had a combat where i havent flank or rear charged... even if i get charged, there is usually a flank lined up... just try to

play the army in the way it is intended.

and we might all actually lose our rep as whingers, we arent chaos, we arent dwarfs, we arent gobbos either, we are DRUCHII, so try playing like one.

Post by **Langmann** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 8:36 am

Well I already said what I think needs fixing in their list.

Having looked at some of their revisions I think that spearmen with heavy armour and DP with S6 on a charge is over the top.

Spearmen with heavy armour and a shield are better than dwarfs in HtH! (They already are as good and better in second round now.)

Rhakinlanthari · Post by **Rhakinlanthari** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:40 am

Can I just say that the main thing I think needs fixing is on elf characters, for both DE and HE, and WE too if the discussion is extended that far.

in my opinion it is completely rediculous that every other Warhammer army's heroes get T4 [or T5 for their lords if their basic troops are T4]. What I think should be done is that elf heroes should have T4. Low toughness and army are already characteristics of our race. It seems stupid that goblin and skink heroes should get +1 T compared to their core troops, when they are quite obviously not as tough as an elf [which isn't very tough at all].

With any other hero I have compared DE nobles with we always come off worse considering points and comparitive fighting ability. just a simple +1T would fix this for all elf heroes.

That and changing the large amout of useless DE magic items [why are there so many?].

Henry · Post by **Henry** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 7:38 pm

I think the High Elves do have some problems, just like the Dark Elves do. You can easily make a competitive army with either book, but both of them have units that are either overpriced or useless, and the Dark Elves have the additional problem that their magic items and characters need a make over as well.

I can see High Elves wanting a few fixes for their Phoenix Guard and White Lions, as well as getting back archers that fire in two ranks, but they don't have as many complaints as Dark Elves.

Really, this issue is not that the Elf armies are hopelessly weak, but that we want to introduce more diversity into the lists. It would be nice if people used Black Guard, Beastmasters and the Cauldron of Blood more often, and if they didn't always have to put a Highborn or Noble with their Cold Ones. The point of getting a revision is not to make the army as a whole viable, but to make certain units more viable.

Maxwell123 · Post by **Maxwell123** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 8:08 pm

Oh, please, High Elf players are just as entitled to their opinions as Druchii players.

Anyway, I play High Elves and feel that to truly balance them against the likes of Skaven, Chaos, Empire, Dwarves, O&G, etc, they DO need some revision, but nothing to the extent of what the Dark Elves need.

The problem with the High Elf army is that several units are overpriced (Phoenix Guards, all the bow/longbow armed units) while others are IMO underpriced (RBT's, Eagles).

I think the Dark Elves need greater changes than the High Elves, but the High Elves also require some tweaking.

For the Dark Elves, here's a few things I'd like to see:

-Cold One Knights get Ld9.

-Executioners keep killing blow and remain S3 but also cause fear. Unlike with the Phoenix Guards, fear actually suits this unit. Killing blow, fear and heavy armour for 14pts sounds about right.

-Black Guard have eternal hatred(re-roll in every round, not just the first) and remain stubborn.

-Many magic items to be revised.

-Dark Art list to actually be made scary. I'm very happy with the job GW did with the High Magic list. I feel it is potent, yet balanced. However, I can't say the same about the Dark Art list. As a High Elf player, I WANT to feel threatened by Dark Magic. Currently, I don't at all. Fire, Heavens, Skaven, Big Waagh and Tzeentch magic are all scarier and frankly that shouldn't be the case.
Dark Magic is supposed to be the most dangerous magic. The current list certain doesn't show that.

Dictator · Post by **Dictator** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:31 am

In my countrie we say give finger they will got whole hand - HE is a strongest army ni WFB now and they want more??

point taken even though i think it was a gift given by gav thorpe to be insensitive to the DE's!!! WOW what a concept being put on the afterthoughts for the HE!!!! sheesh just can't get away from those dainties can we :cry:

Eeeeron · Post by **Eeeeron** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:15 am

-Executioners keep killing blow and remain S3 but also cause fear. Unlike with the Phoenix Guards, fear actually suits this unit. Killing blow, fear and heavy armour for 14pts sounds about right.

That's a good idea, as in the fluff the mention of executioners in the army especially if lead by Tullaris is supposed to cause fear and panic in the enemy ranks.

P.S. Welcome to druchii.net.

Post by **Vorchild** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:33 pm

Truly, there are tweeks needed as people have mentioned. Daydreamer could talk to you guys for days about it I'm sure.

However, I'm goin got mnove this to WGD.

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:34 pm

@ Logan : Interesting that you picked up on what I said there, not really sure why you felt the need to quote it 3 times but here goes......

My point is that the HE list, whilst in need of some changes is not as bad as ours due plain and simple to their magic list. This gives them the opportunity to vary their lists somewhat to take into account some of the problem areas which we struggle with. Hello Lore of Heavens, Lore of Life!?!

DE list struggles in that area despite the BS fluff about our mastery of magic. And the rest of your post above - your opinion man. If you strongly feel like that then why don't you try and teach these DE players how to play 'Logan style'? I seem to remember when you first cam onto these boards being a big protagonist for the use of rxbs, as many as you could get into your list.

@ Naram Sin : the HE list has it's strengths but is not the most powerful list out there. Far from it really. Ever seen what a Khornate army can do to them? Magic, what magic with so many dispel dice.

@ Maxwell 123 : dead right. HEs have a voice too. The problem is Chaos and Skaven came along with absolutley stupid lists which a lot of other armies, Elven in particular, now struggle with. O & G and Empire are pretty balanced lists in my mind ( except the goddam Steam tank where I am with the Baron on that ). VC list is a good one too. Dwarves I think you can get round them in a similar way to how we do. Langmann summed it up pretty well I think.

The thing is if the HE list was that bad I reckon that Ulthuan.org would have had a spate of topics like we had here before we started the revision. The stuff they do need fixing could possibly already be in the back of some game designers mind for when they redo the books. Who knows

I would like our units and their magic list :mrgreen:

Danceman · Post by **Danceman** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:08 pm

every single army have something that they want to be changed...
now i have only really read through the chaos,HE,DE and VC books and all in all they had something that could have been down better/more balanced.
chaos; i noticed they dont have any good magic weapon... cept if you want spend like 80points for it...
DE; soooo few options, a few "no-brainer" choices but alot of useless crap...
HE; since DE looks quite alot worse than HE i could not really find any real flaw.
VC; WORTHLESS magic weapons cept for the sword of kings... but the rest i looooove(Guess which my main army is).

everyone want something done, but after what i have seen DE are in the most need for it.
cheers...

Athamas · Post by **Athamas** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 4:29 pm

I agree that DE need a revision!

I alsop wish ppl would stop comparing HE to De for oh look they have this unit that can do that, an we dont!

im you want to make a comparison to something make it to empire!!!

HE archers, seagaurs, and the intruge rule are the only thing that is broken!

the intruge rule would be fine if it was only rolled between heros of equivelent Ld or same character level (ie lord/hero)

So archers (and sea gaurd) are the only thing that are broken, the rest is fine!

If only DE had this few many thing broken!

Ravenphoenix · Post by **Ravenphoenix** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 5:27 am

no ive got a much better idea *sarcastically* how bout we all just argue about it all the time, whine whinge and get angry at other people for their opinions, that will help solve things so much better. PEOPLE FACE IT, they are never going to get something exactly right, its damn near impossible, but of course *grins* i agree that DE need a revision

Powerfulfawn · Post by **Powerfulfawn** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:43 pm

That's just sad. HE are probably one of the best armies out at the moment and they want to have a book revison!! :evil:

! PATHETIC

Chaos and Skaven should actually be having a revision to make them less powerful and dominating than they are

Powerfulfawn · Post by **Powerfulfawn** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:45 pm

That's just sad. HE are probably one of the best armies out at the moment and they want to have a book revison!! :evil:

! PATHETIC

Chaos and Skaven should actually be having a revision to make them less powerful and dominating than they are

Powerfulfawn · Post by **Powerfulfawn** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:46 pm

That's just sad. HE are probably one of the best armies out at the moment and they want to have a book revison!! :evil:

! PATHETIC

Chaos and Skaven should actually be having a revision to make them less powerful and dominating than they are