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Thoughts on Swedish Comp 
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Marchosias wrote:
Comp systems do more than just boosting or hindering some units. In addition, they for example: *snip*


This is not a "comp system." The term "comp" is an abbreviation of composition and refers to the practice of placing restrictions on the composition of an army. For the sake of clarity, we should all understand that clarification or modification of the rules is something different from "comp".

Marchosias wrote:
Again, what was the ogre player supposed to do? Not playing a gutstar maybe *snip*


Exactly this. Don't play a Gutstar. The big spells in each Lore are generally designed to nuke big, expensive units and discourage Deathstar builds. When you nerf magic, you throw off the game balance and tilt it in favor of Deathstar builds.

Some people don't like their big, expensive units getting destroyed by magic. Other people don't like having the majority of their army run over by a massive unit that they no longer have a way of dealing with since magic has been nerfed under the rules of a particular tournament.

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Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:44 pm
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Dyvim tvar wrote:
This is not a "comp system."

On the other hand, you never play ETC comp without ETC rules and the same might be true for some other comps I am not that familiar with. Some changes in composition might not make sense if the changes in rules are not in action; similarly, some critics dislike the rules changing part alone.

Dyvim tvar wrote:
Don't play a Gutstar.

Marchosias wrote:
if the death magic is on a mobile caster, is it really that difficult to find an angle that hits several units?

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Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:17 pm
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First and foremost: OK are designed with a "deathstar" in mind... If you cant fill the front rank of your unit with characters, the ogres will die in droves since they literally dont know what armor is. So yeah okay, dont play a gutstar, and then lose every time you meet a combat army.

And also, lose when you meet the mobile death wizard, because as Marchosias points out... Nothing is easier than aiming a purple sun through several units. Unless of course the ogre player spreads out. Making his units extremely more vulnerable to melee.

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Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:15 pm
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Thraundil wrote:
First and foremost: OK are designed with a "deathstar" in mind... If you cant fill the front rank of your unit with characters, the ogres will die in droves since they literally dont know what armor is. So yeah okay, dont play a gutstar, and then lose every time you meet a combat army.


I disagree. I have seen non-Gutstar Ogres played and played well. A member of my gaming group won Buckeye Battles 2013 with a non-Gutstar Ogre list (approx. 110-player) going undefeated in the process. Gutstar is a crutch. It's far from the only way to play Ogres.

Thraundil wrote:
And also, lose when you meet the mobile death wizard, because as Marchosias points out... Nothing is easier than aiming a purple sun through several units. Unless of course the ogre player spreads out. Making his units extremely more vulnerable to melee.


First, it's not that easy.

Second, Ogres have the tools to take out a Wizard like that. Cannon-snipe with Ironblasters. And if the Wizard is in a fast-cav unit, hit it with Leadbelchers and then Cannon-snipe when the unit is less than 5 rank-and-file. Many Ogre players don't use Leadbelchers, but maybe they need to.

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Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:25 pm
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For example, you are only allowed to generate a maximum number of dice during a magic phase. Below are some examples what can happen if you play according to the rules: Both occured in the previous armybook where dark elves were allowed to throw more than six dice on a spell and where each sorceress had the power of darkness spell: cast on 4+, generates D3 +1 power dice.

There was a game where a dark elf with lvl4 death and lvl4 shadow stood against a vampire counts army. He got first turn and good winds of magic. He rolled all his dice at a purple sun, got irresistible force and killed a terrorgheist together with a good portion of the undead army, generating 12 dice again. The miscast killed some insignificant stuff. Then he rolled 12 dice on pit of shades, killed the other terrorgheist and again, lost something he did not care about due to miscast. The vampire counts player lost some 1000 points or more in one turn. And what was he supposed to do, spread his deployment so he cannot march? And was the dark elf army really that weak against other foes or was forcing the miscasts that risky?


Well, first off, they've changed the dark elf book now. The 7th edition one was, indeed, imbalanced, but that's because it was aimed at 7th edition. Equally, though, I don't really understand how limiting the number of dice generated in the magic phase would have made a difference here. A double six is a double six, no matter how many dice are generated. The breakage in irresistible force comes from that mechanic, not from the number of dice generated.

Finally - magic does balance the game: it was an area that GW actually got right in the end. Deathstars have the potential to dominate the game, but unit killing spells creates a deterrence factor. It might be tempting for me to throw 1000+ points into a single unit in a 3k game, but the risk of someone literally killing half of that unit with a single dwellers below deters me from doing that. If you nerf magic, as your example suggests, then deathstars become king. The comp rules kill one "imbalance" and thus create another one.

Again, "fixing" the rules usually just creates new problems. The dilemma with Warhammer is not that the game itself is broken, but instead that countless hordes of gaming enthusiasts spend myriad hours pouring over every possible rule and army list entry to identify and maximize every possible breakage that they can exploit. In all honesty, no game can stand up to that kind of scrutiny and intent to exploit. Comp systems mask the problem a little because they create new dynamics that take time and energy for players to exploit (and reduce the number of potential exploiters down to only those using that particular comp system), but ultimately the same core potential for breakages exist in them too.

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Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:18 am
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How does comp help in my examples? First, a "light rules-changing comp" limits the number of power dice generated, so while the first purple sun gets through no matter what, it is at least not possible to follow up with other spells. The effect of magic will still be painful but it is some help at least.
Second, a "harder rules-changing comp" might limit the number of dice you are allowed to throw at certain spells, purple sun including, to five or four dice. This makes it less likely to get an irresistible force, allowing a response from the opponent. If he loses because he decides not to scroll it, it is suddenly his calculated risk, not something that he had little say in.

Of course you can mitigate the effects of magic even in an uncomped setting. But the potential for an instant loss is still there. The winner of Buckeye probably only met good players. Because a bad player might decide to expose his wizard and six-dice a purple sun along the ogre battleline. With (rules-changing) comp, the ogre player just raises his eyebrows, scrolls the sun, kills the mage and wins the game. Without (rules-changing) comp, the sun gets cast irresistibly with a much higher probability and the ogre player is suddenly on his back feet (and probably wins anyway against such a reckless opponent but this is another story :D ).

Powerful magic does not affect only deathstars. The ogre player is probably going to have a BSB, most likely bodyguarded by some unit. If you purple sun this unit to oblivion, or if you dweller the mage bunker of an elf, it is game changing itself. Both of these spells can be cast without actually seeing the target so even a respectable shooting base might not be enough.

(Rules changing) comp reduces volatility in this regard.

And I do not think this kind of (rules changing) comp promotes deathstars too heavily, either. The current version under ETC says, for example, that you have a look out! against dwellers and such for two characters at maximum. So you can have a mage fairly safe in his bunker (volatility reduced, killing mages needs more effort) but it does not protect you completely if you play a character-heavy deathstar.

More importantly, if your opponent fields a deathstar, you can still punish him with a super spell. If the unit is that nasty you are probably going to attempt the purple sun every turn. You will force it through sooner or later. In the meantime, you can avoid and redirect as usual.

Final note: I agree that any comp is ever only going to shift the imbalance and it never creates a completely even field. However, I believe it can reduce the imbalance in the process, and in my opinion moving from heavy imbalance to somewhat less imbalance is a good thing.

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Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:28 am
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I think our point of disagreement is that I don't think that the magic rules as written are particularly imbalancing. Pretty much every army out there is going to be vulnerable on some levels to big spells. Ogres don't like Purple Sun. Elves don't like Dwellers Below. These big spells introduce an element of randomness and uncertainty, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Luck is part of the game.

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Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:21 pm
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Dyvim tvar wrote:
I think our point of disagreement is that I don't think that the magic rules as written are particularly imbalancing. Pretty much every army out there is going to be vulnerable on some levels to big spells. Ogres don't like Purple Sun. Elves don't like Dwellers Below. These big spells introduce an element of randomness and uncertainty, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Luck is part of the game.



+1 - Pretty much the whole magic phase is about luck and uncertainty, more so than any other part of the game IMO. Sure there are things you can do to influence it, so it's not 100% luck, but it's certainly a major factor. I think it's an intentional part of the design to have a wildcard mechanic built into the system. You can invest a ton of points in magic, but if you roll a snake eyes on your power dice every turn, you're pretty much out of luck. Your opponent can have dispel scrolls and good magic defense, but if you roll 2 6s with your 5 casting die spell (not that unlikely), the spell that totally screws your army goes off, and you can't do a thing about it.

And again, I get that's true of every other phase too, (I can kill your general with a single bolt thrower shot, if I get lucky on the shot, and you miss your look out sir, and fail your armor and ward, etc), but in magic the randomness is magnified, as it should be.

It's tough for a comp system to really account for that. And I for one wouldn't want it to try.

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Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:51 pm
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I'll paraphrase a couple of the replies frame Herdstone for you guys (and/or girls) to consider.

First, a point made by user Sandsnare that is pretty sensible:
He likes playing comps because it mixes things up. Sure some comps (ETC) are more harsh than others (Swedish) but all it does is open up other options and gives the new challenge of dusting off old models and making a new list. All Swedish does is give a few hundred victory points to the player with better composition score, unlike ETC, which is the harsh one everyone here seems to be thinking of...

Which leads to the next post by user snowblizz, seemingly confrontational but no less applicable:
Basically laughs at people who spout "you can't win a game" nonsense and then don't take the time to consider what happens when a comp kicks their crutches out from under them. A real pro gamer can play without them, but people who won't play comp won't respond to that because "their ego can't handle the challenge."

Interesting...


Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:45 pm
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Dyvim tvar wrote:
I think our point of disagreement is that I don't think that the magic rules as written are particularly imbalancing. Pretty much every army out there is going to be vulnerable on some levels to big spells. Ogres don't like Purple Sun. Elves don't like Dwellers Below. These big spells introduce an element of randomness and uncertainty, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Luck is part of the game.


I have come to a similar conclusion. You think deathstars are so bad that you are willing to rather receive a six-diced super spell from time to time. I consider six-diced super spells so bad that I would rather play against a deathstar.

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Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:47 pm
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I think the biggest reason comp is attractive (especially Swedish) is because it forces you to switch it up a bit.

Go look at the army lists on this site. Many are really the same thing, and often the same advice is given in terms of "what's best". Conversely, then someone puts up a few battle reports using 2 medusa and everyone is *very* interested in how it turned out.

That is in essence what attracts me to comp. It's not the power of a unit necessarily it's the break from the same old same old. (I haven't been playing 8th long enough to really be too bored with certain army builds yet, but some have, and I can definitely relate)

Comp means that its not just the same old savage orc horde with shrunken head, or or gutstar, or red fury vampire black knight bus.

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Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:44 pm
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Yes, it does.

The difference is that the same old savage horde with shrunken head, or a gutstar, or red fury vampire black knight bus has different army around them. And the opponent usually doesn't have tools to be able to deal with deathstar in any meaningful way other than build their own deathstar.

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Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:37 pm
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That is not my experience with playing this comp pack at all :) Met a few player that had lists that comps very high (DoC in this case) and he used that against me. It was a hard fought and exciting game and in the end he won with a small margin because I didnt get as many points that I needed to close the gap the comp bonus provided. My mistake was not to push harder in this case.

People are inventive and come up with some crazy combos and outside the box thinking, which I find refreshing.


Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:33 pm
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The free points for comp difference is the window to *buggest* abuse of the system.

Start with 600 points difference? So you win by default, just play defensively.

Not a good idea.

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Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:56 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
The difference is that the same old savage horde with shrunken head, or a gutstar, or red fury vampire black knight bus has different army around them.


Well, tourneys using the swedish comp usually only allow armies in a fixed range, mostly around 10-14. This means that you basically can only spend 200 comp points at maximum.
A unit of savage orc big uns with shrunken head costs 42 comp points under the actual Swedish comp. You still need an army of about 2000 points around them.
A mounted quickblood, red fury vampire lord costs 49 comp points alone and that is if he is only lvl1 and has no magic weapon.

So sure, you can probably play it. But only if the rest of your army is composed of units that are very uncommon and thus penalized only very lightly - in which case the comp fulfils one of its goals.

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Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:22 am
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Not really, because the opponent has to build an army that can deal with yours, leading to a very similar build.

When an army is based on the same death star with a slight modification of their build it is not a different list.

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Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:10 pm
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I am afraid I don't understand your argument. So a player tries to play a boring deathstar. He has only a few comp points left after purchasing it so he has to build the rest of his army from rarely used units because rarely used units have the lightest comp in general. Either he finds out his army does not work and abandons the deathstar in which case comp wins. Or he is successful with the rarely used units, showing that they have actually a good potential and giving the others the courage to use them more in which case comp wins.

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Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:14 pm
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It wouldn't be a win because of the rare units, it would be a win because of a deathstar. Which changes nothing in army composition.

MSU is hard to score good comp. Avoidance mobile army is near impossible. Witch Elf death star is really the only competitive choice in swedish comp if you want your score anywhere near 12... and forget warlocks if you want a level 4.

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Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:28 pm
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Marchosias wrote:
Either he finds out his army does not work and abandons the deathstar in which case comp wins. Or he is successful with the rarely used units, showing that they have actually a good potential and giving the others the courage to use them more in which case comp wins.


How is it a "win" for comp if someone is able to show that a rarely-used choice is under-comped in relation to its actual utility?

Seems like under your analysis Swede comp would always "win"

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Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:48 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Witch Elf death star is really the only competitive choice in swedish comp if you want your score anywhere near 12

This is a bold statement. How can you be so sure that you really considered all possible builds, from warlock deathstar to avoidance to pegasus spam to monster mash to two towers to bowline to all kinds of combined arms to all the things I am failing to mention right now?

Dyvim tvar wrote:
How is it a "win" for comp if someone is able to show that a rarely-used choice is under-comped in relation to its actual utility?

People tend to field what they consider the strongest. And usually, what units are "the strongest" is generally agreed on among a large group of players. The result are armies that are very similar to each other.
Sometimes, an explorer appears who just wants to find a new path, without the need of any other incentives. They are quite rare, though, and many of them fail because they are not skilled or persistent enough. In my meta, for example, no one plays a black dragon because everyone who tried failed miserably. I think I am the only one who even tried out the medusa for more than a few games.
In Swedish comp, however, you sometimes field units you consider not so strong but OK enough because they help you with your score. And your opponent has a weaker army, too. Suddenly, you start to see corsairs, black guards, sisters - units that are generally considered useful but outshined by other choices. Which is nice by itself.
If something has a low score, it is not because some failure of the comp makers. It is a sign that this choice is not used in successful lists and an encouragement for players to explore it.
And if someone finds a way how to use something no one believes in, people will learn from him and become better players.

Dyvim tvar wrote:
Seems like under your analysis Swede comp would always "win"

Yes, I think comp makes Warhammer better. I thought this was quite clear from all the things I have already written here.

***

You keep saying comp only causes everyone to play deathstars. As I did not want to discard the argument without thought, I went through the lists of US Masters 2014 which used Swedish, accessible here. While I found some deathstars, they were in a clear minority (if we use this term for similar units which might not be the case of course*). So, if you say comp promotes deathstars, what makes you think so?

* Do you consider a horde of 30 witch elves with a cauldron a death star? I do not. I consider it a strong unit but I would need to see at least a master with MR(3) in there to label it a deathstar.

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Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:21 pm
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Marchosias wrote:
Dyvim tvar wrote:
Seems like under your analysis Swede comp would always "win"

Yes, I think comp makes Warhammer better. I thought this was quite clear from all the things I have already written here.


It is quite clear. But you miss my point.

Whether or not you believe comp is a good thing in general, if someone finds an oft-overlooked unit is under-comped in relation to its actual power level (lack of popularity does not necessarily equate to lack of power or vice versa) and is able to exploit that fact that's not a "win" for the particular comp system being used. The comp system failed.

Every comp system has its failings -- Swede Comp included -- and those failings aren't transformed into "wins" just because they are later corrected.

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Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:50 pm
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Marchosias wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
Witch Elf death star is really the only competitive choice in swedish comp if you want your score anywhere near 12

This is a bold statement. How can you be so sure that you really considered all possible builds, from warlock deathstar to avoidance to pegasus spam to monster mash to two towers to bowline to all kinds of combined arms to all the things I am failing to mention right now?


Because they all very easily score below 10 in swede score. Some are unable to score above 5. Warlock bus? That one goes into negatives.

Marchosias wrote:
You keep saying comp only causes everyone to play deathstars. As I did not want to discard the argument without thought, I went through the lists of US Masters 2014 which used Swedish, accessible here. While I found some deathstars, they were in a clear minority (if we use this term for similar units which might not be the case of course*). So, if you say comp promotes deathstars, what makes you think so?


Keep in mind US Masters was won by a deathstar list.

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Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:32 am
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At first (almost 2 years ago) when I first came across Swedish Comp I did not like it as it penalized me for taking my go to units which at the time was the reverse ward peglord, duel hydras, lvl4 shadow and 60 RXB (the old book) and with the old book Dark Elves suffered greatly under swedish comp, where even if you took 2500 points of chaff you still scored below a 5.

The new book and swed is different though and I like going to tournaments that are both straight from the book and ones that use the swedish comp system. I hate panel comp though. The reason why i like swed so much thou is that it makes every tournament totally different to the last. And because each one is so different I get to write/tweak/perfect many different DE list instead of just running my Morathi, BSB peg, 4 RBT, 2 warlock list every time, which while I win over 90% of my games with that list, I now find it boring to play as it is not as much as a challange to play and win compared to running a swed 15 list.

Fair enough though that the 15 list would get tromped by my uncomped list but in a swed comped enviroment it still challanges my opponents and myself.

I have also found that from switching back and forth from weaker list to stronger list also makes me a better general


Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:22 am
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You can do all thar without an arbitrary comp. I play with scourgerunners lately, I don't need comp to force me to experiment

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Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:03 am
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No, but many people do.


Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:07 am
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