Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:42 am



Reply to topic  [ 60 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Thoughts on Swedish Comp 
Author Message
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9675
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
How's that an excuse to force them to do it?
I prefer being able to say "I beat the US Master, and I had a Medusa in my list" (which is actually true)

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:23 pm
Profile
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:53 am
Posts: 594
Dalamar wrote:
Because they all very easily score below 10 in swede score. Some are unable to score above 5. Warlock bus? That one goes into negatives.

So I assume you have analyzed the Swedish comp meta, identified what your opponents could throw at you and what answers do you need in a successful list, then written down all possible combination of Dark Elf units that would fulfil this requirements and computed the comp score for every one of them? If this is what you are basing your result on, why don't you post your thoughts? It would make an excellent tactics article.

By the way, I have just written a warlock bus list which scores 11,9. Sure, there is no real fighting unit besides the 8 warlocks + 3 characters. But that is the point: I really wanted the warlocks so I squeezed them in - at a cost. I am not sure the list is competitive, I have not given it much thought and do not know the Swedish comp meta but it is possible. Try it out yourself.

Dalamar wrote:
Keep in mind US Masters was won by a deathstar list.

So what? This indicates that the winner was probably a good player with a strong list. It does not prove in any way that the lists of others were weaker.
The fact that so many good players believed in non-deathstar lists is far more important in my opinion.

Dalamar wrote:
I prefer being able to say "I beat the US Master, and I had a Medusa in my list" (which is actually true)

I have read your report. Yes, you had a medusa there. And with her, 2300 points of strong and battle-proven choices. The bold novelty you are bragging about was actually consisting of scraping 90 points somewhere to accomodate a small rarely seen model. Do not take it wrong: it probably is bold to do such a thing in an uncomped environment, given that you are mostly playing against the worst filth available. Swedish comp, however, gives you both the incentive and the environment of softer lists where you can experiment on a larger scale without getting smashed over and over again for months before you finally get your novelty list right.

_________________
The Lost Colony defenders - Rowena's painting log

Alternative Armies - because we can build any army without GW!


Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:59 am
Profile
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9675
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
So you made a useless non-competitive warlock list (3 characters isn't even a bus yet) and say the comp works?

A list like that qould get crushed by a 14+ demon prince warriors filth with ease.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:41 pm
Profile
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:53 am
Posts: 594
How can I know if the list is strong when I have never played it? How can YOU know if it is strong when you have never even seen the roster?

I have made several points and this was the least important one of them.

_________________
The Lost Colony defenders - Rowena's painting log

Alternative Armies - because we can build any army without GW!


Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:58 am
Profile
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9675
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Over a decade of experience playing this game comp free. Some things just get really obvious after a while.
that "warlock bus" kills the comp score of the list without adding anything substantial.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:46 pm
Profile
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:53 am
Posts: 594
I do not want to fall into a discussion of this kind so let us assume you are right and the only viable way to play the warlock bus is with it containing five characters. This means, however, that the warlock bus is only playable as a deathstar and swedish comp is right when it renders it impossible.

_________________
The Lost Colony defenders - Rowena's painting log

Alternative Armies - because we can build any army without GW!


Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:28 pm
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 173
Greetings!

I thought I add some of my own observations on the events with Swedish Comp in which I took part. Before I do it I would like to attract your attention to this topic:

Swedish Comp - topic on TWF

It is a very long topic but people who created it post there so you can have their own opinion on what and why they do the way they do. In the very first post they state that what do they aim for:

Quote:
The systems goal is to create both an inter- and intra-army book balance. The balance created then itself results in more varied lists and an always changing Meta-game.

The system gets uppdated at regular intervals to make it as balanced as possible, include new army books and prevent people from only using the same "net-list" all the time.


I would also like to add that I have never tailored my army list to any players pack and I took part in the events where no comp was applied as well as in those that used panel comp or various ways of Swedish Comp. Any time I played in the tournament with Swedish Comp I just took what I wanted to take and made sure that the score is calculated with the version of the document the organizers used for their tournament. In fact, I refused to change my army list for Australian Masters 2013 despite the fact it scored 15 where the maximum you could get was 14.

In every tournament I took part Scenarios were also used although some of them were modified in comparison to their version in the rule book.

In general, I observed two things in terms of what score people try to achieve, depending on how Swedish comp is applied:

1. If Swedish comp is used to add the difference in comp to the result softer army and deduce from the result of harder army then people try to get as high Swedish Comp as they can.

For example:

Player A has the army with the composition score 12, Player B has the army with the score 8. The difference is 4. They play the game and the result is 10-10, however, after the modification it is 14-6 for player A.

The variation of that would be to modify the end result by giving victory points per Swedish comp difference. For example, 1 point = 100VP.

2. If Swedish comp is not used to modify the game result or it is only used to add extra VP to the softer army but not deduced from the harder one, then people usually try to get as tough force as the system allows.

For example:

The brackets are 9-14, even if the composition is somehow added to the end result then expect majority of armies to go closer to 9.

Now all the above may mean nothing to a person who has never used Swedish composition but I think it is still worthy information. I have further observations based on my experience and about the way the armies really looked like as well as how tough it was to fight against these.

1. There is a very nice variety among the armies.

No matter how Swedish was applied and despite the fact that some usual suspects were present, the armies looked different from each other and peoples creativity was encouraged. In fact, after talking to many players I learned they were happy to try something new and found out that less popular choices are not that bad as internet tells them. What is more, these armies actually were very good too.

2. The player defines the army

Very good players created their armies strategically. They knew how system is going to affect their overall score and came prepared. Their armies scored lower or higher in the composition but if they scored low it meant they knew how to win big regardless and overcome the handicap. If they scored high it meant that the concessions they made were very conscious while on paper the choices might look weak. It was deliberate as these players used the advantage of a surprise and the fact that others might not have enough experience against less popular units.

3. The games were as hard as in no comp event

The fact that the armies were softer in the composition score didn't mean it was walk in the park. Actually, the contrary. I didn't have the benefit to play against the same army twice. No net lists means that you had to come up with the plan on the spot. You can expect some choices anyway but they will definitely come along in different combinations. So if you cannot form a good plan quickly, if you don't know your own force well then you are at a disadvantage already. You simply have to be ready for any single unit that exists. And that made the games even more interesting, less predictable and much more rewarding.

Swedish comp is not ideal and I don't think people who created it consider it so. It definitely shifts the balance between the armies and in the frame of army books - but that is what they wanted to do. It definitely inspires more creativity and variety and for that alone I am grateful.

In the end, as always, it is about the player you face not the system you use. If he is a douchebag no matter how lovely scenarios you have, how beautiful armies you field and how soft army he brings, the experience will not be nice. If he is a tough but fair opponent, comes prepared (and I mean in any possible sense), uses his army well but does not bend the rules in doing so then you will have fantastic game and you will learn a thing or two even if he brings tough army. And who knows, you may even have a new friend after that.

Cheers!

_________________
Image


Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:33 pm
Profile
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9675
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Quote:
1. There is a very nice variety among the armies.


Playing nearly exclusively in no-comp tournaments, I can tell you that's my experience as well, comp or no comp. Last major tournament I faced off against demons twice and they couldn't be any more different than they were.

Quote:
2. The player defines the army


In my circles this is called "playing the comp". A good player will have a greater understanding of his or her army and select choices that are powerful, but overlooked by the comp creators ending up with a list that is terrifying to face... and yet score pitiful comp.

Quote:
3. The games were as hard as in no comp event


The no netlist part is completely false. New version of comp comes out and within a week you have a new netlist for the new comp. Nothing has changed.

A good player will bring different lists *because* he's a good player. I rarely see a netlist among my opponents, and if I do, I see it on the table first and then on the net (I happen to be lucky to have some top notch players as my regular opponents). In fact, under comp I feel more restrained as I can't take certain choices in combination with other ones without killing the comp score entirely. I can't make fluffy lists most of the time because someone in Sweden decided one unit is "too strong". I feel I have faced the most diverse armies under no comp and the choices that are often being repeated, were always repeated regardless of comp system used (like the Demon Prince... though I did actually play a list without one in a no-comp tournament!)

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:07 am
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 173
Hi Dalamar,

I have a feeling you come from the position: No-comp is good, Swedish is bad. Is that correct?

I would like to add that I didn't intend to claim that Swedish is better. I offered my observations based on quite a few different tournaments that applied this pack.

A few random comments on your comments :)

1. 2 samples are not exactly good statistical data, don't you think? :)

2. Player defines the army - it was more general comment. In the context of comp, it of course means that a good player knows how to use it to his advantage. However, it does not automatically mean that he is going to take characters/units he normally does not take.

Comp or no comp, bottom line is that people win games, not armies. You can easily win gun fight with a knife, provided you are John Rambo :)

3. The no netlist part is completely false - I am sorry but I think you overstepped here. You see, I offered an observation. It is a fact, not an opinion, that on the tournaments I attended and that had Swedish comp applied, there were no net lists. You didn't attend these tournaments yet you claim to know better. Bad, bad Dalamar :mrgreen:

I understand you don't like Swedish comp. Trust me, that is perfectly fine. I, for example, don't even bother convincing anyone to like it. And I don't quite care how a player forms his opinion about it either. I am just curious, provided that my feeling is correct (that you think Swedish is bad) why do you try so hard to tell others it is a bad system when you seem to play in the area where no comp is applied?

Cheers!

_________________
Image


Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:30 am
Profile
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9675
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Simple, because the system is slowly creeping into events in my area and I am fighting tooth and nail to prevent it from happening. The number of events i would like to attend is slowly shrinking, if it keeps up I'll end up not going to tournaments anymore. Vote with my wallet so to speak.

It's not that Swedish is bad. All comp is bad, period.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:44 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 60 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software