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Killed by Khorne
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Calling all Warhammer 8th Fans -- Looking for your thoughts on improving 8th edition

I'm working on a modified verison of 8th and I'd like to get the communities thoughts on problems with 8th, and old "flavour" from past editions and Army Books that you'd like to see return...

Dark Elves
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back?
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back?
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back?

High Elves
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back?
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back?
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back?

Wood Elves
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Skaven
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Beastmen
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Warriors of Chaos
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Daemons of Chaos
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Chaos Dwarves
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Dwarves
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Brettonia
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Empire
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Lizardmen
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Vampire Counts
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Tomb Kings
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back

Summary:-

- How to improve the balance of 8th? Tell me your ideas.
- What changes would you like to see to current 8th lists?
- What "blasts from the past" would you like to see return?
- What are obvious deficienies of current lists? Or obvious overpowered components?
Open Request: Electronic copies of old Army Books (even just an XL spreadsheet of current non-Druchii Army Lists would be helpful). Drop me a PM.

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Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:33 pm
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Neat idea T.D. I have a couple of ideas, whether or not they are balanced is debatable.

General rules:

1- always strike first no longer gives re-rolls with higher initiative but gives a +1 to hit.

2- The initial point for a cannon scatters D3-1 inches, and cannons only blow up on the roll of a 1 on the misfire chart.

3- Magic resistance in addition to increasing ward saves also subtracts from casting values of spells targeting the bearer equal to the level of resistance.

4- Maybe make being disrupted also remove the inspiring presence and hold your ground rules unless the general or BSB are in the combat? or reduced to half range?


Dark elves:

1- medusa are now units of 1 to 3 models and gain the skirmish and quick to fire rule.

2- cauldron of blood only gives re-rolls to wound on the unit is in.

3- Fleet master... remove from book :killed:

4- The hydra blade gives either bonus attacks or heroic killing blow, the bearer may choose.

5- nerf warlocks or raise their points cost.


High elves:

1- Banner of the world dragon no longer protects from miscasts


wood elves:

1- forest spirits ward save increases from a 6+ to 5+


Beastmen:

1- make all rare choices about 225 points.

2- beastmen can take marks


Warriors of chaos:

1- mark of nurgle costs 50% more

2- daemon princes are not unbreakable, they gain daemonic instability.


Daemons of chaos:

1- beasts of nurgle cannot challenge.

2- daemonic gifts may be exchanged for any item of equal value not just weapons.

3- skull cannon point increase to 160.


Empire:

1- Slight points increase for demigryph knights.


Tomb Kings:

1- combined undead armies of the end times rules apply

2- Ushabti reduced to 40 points.

3- casket of souls points increase to 165


Ogre kingdoms

1- saber tusks point increase to 35 points.

2- Iron blaster increase to 200 points.


Orcs and Goblins:

1- doom divers are a little to accurate.


So there it is, I might have gotten a little carried away :oops: Thoughts?


Last edited by General Kael on Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:53 pm
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Interesting concept :) I will try to refrain from using OP / UP and just try to state weak and strong sides, as I do believe there is an inherent balance between the armies - with a few exceptions! Keep in mind I am writing everything from the POV of my local meta.

Broken / bad concept:

- The cheapness and high availability of flying units. All kind of flying units, but in particular flying monsters and flying characters. It forces the game in an annoying direction of rock paper scissors, and flying big guys are just a little too strong. Replace fly with hover (I have no issue with a long charge range, but I majorly dislike the 20" movement!! Yes - coming from a pegasus heavy player indeed), or place a hard cap on # of flying units in the army. Or a hard cover on a fliers armour save - how much armour can a flying unit carry? Not a 1+ thats for damned sure. Not without maybe suffering a strength penalty?

- The way war machines work. Examples: RBT's are super sick vs flak and WM hunters, but they are seriously appalling against 'what you bring them for' - monsters and to a certain extent anti armour. Then you have cannons which are horribly strong vs big things due to their ease of hitting, but suck major bazumba vs flak and WM hunters. I wish there was a way to make artillery pieces decent vs most things, but not horribly broken vs certain things. Suggestion: make WM's use the same mechanism to hit across the board. I like how a strong thrower scatters, but I really really dont like how a cannon has an overwhelming 66% chance to hit a monster base no matter how much stuff we put in between! When I think of 4 RBT's dealing on average 2 wounds per turn to a T6 monster, and a single cannon doing I believe 3 average wounds... No, just no. Balance this out. I know they are different things with different roles but it bothers me so much =)




Dark Elves

I honestly dont feel there are any downright broken sides to DE (aside from mass fliers, look above). Brolock busses can be handled the same way any bus is handled - flak it up and use wiper spells. I do however feel like the DE armybook suffers from a major major lack of internal synergy. Our infantry is weak as all hell since they got no defenses whatsoever. Our heavy cavalry is even bad in a meta where you go 1+ or you go home. 30 points a pop for T3 with 2+ armour save? Pass.
DE (and elves as a whole?) has a serious problem with enemy fliers. Bolt throwers has an average of 2W on a T6 monster, and they barely take a wound off a T4 4+ ward save character before he undoubtedly charges the following turn. Land bound monsters can be handled with poison, but a flier chooses which combat it wants, and we have no real means of stopping them save for playing super defensive and setting up counter charges with our own power units. Which essentially is what the opponent wants: more time for them to cast magic on our hardhitters.


High Elves

One of the best written books IMO. The internal balance is amazing. You can do all-cavalry, all-infantry, heavy monster or a mix, and it can all work. HE like to cry that their characters cant get 1+ armour save with mundane equipment, but I honestly feel like this is the single place in which DE has the better book. Well that, and warlocks I guess. Their mages has access to some of the nastiest combo's and the strongest arcane item in the game. Their infantry has the potential for amazing protection without really giving up on their combat power. They have the strongest dragon in the game, and the hands-down strongest monster in the game: the frostheart phoenix (ASL and -1S is such a brutal aura! Its basically phantasmagoria and enfeebling foe autocast...). Not to mention the best magic banner in the game (design fail that it makes miscasts basically not threatening at all!!!!!). Seriously, what are they moaning about?!? Their core selection could be better. Its basically silver helms or silver helms, along with some reavers. But that is not bad, really...


Wood Elves

They do two things well. Shooting and countercharging. They do this better than any other race. In fact, they do it so well its hard to really get close to them, and harder yet to beat them. A well written book, but I feel like WE are a one trick pony (or well, two trick pony then) that are just way too good at doing those tricks. Only nasty nasty things and list tailoring really seem to work....


Skaven

Haha. Super poor book with heavy mark of being an edition old. Some things are retardedly broken, some things are so bad its almost worth crying. Could do with an update for sure. HPA, WLC at the same price we give for a bolt thrower, the doomwheel with d3 wound shots, the cheap slave tarpits... Well I guess they need these things since their heroes and regular rank-and-file troops cant fight for shiz. But theres about a million of them so who cares, really.


Beastmen

One of the weaker books. All they got going for them are chariots (which warriors do even better) and hordes of infantry. In my local meta they are kind of the punching bag... Sorely lack ranged power. End times fixes some of their issues, with them being able to take marks, but they are still a static army which cant collect points if you decide to not let them.



Warriors of Chaos

Uncomped, disclords are retarded. I've always felt the WoC race was a great place to start out with warhammer, since you basically deploy your stuff and shove it across the table, safe in the knowledge that block vs block, warriors will win. Their core beats our special, their special beats our rare, their heroes beats our lords. Overall a very forgiving book and I wish there would be some weaknesses to exploit somewhere. They are 'static' (flying disc heroes and chimera solves this) but thats about it really.



Daemons of Chaos

Reign of chaos is not very well designed. Some games it does nothing, some games it basically wins the game for the daemon player, and some games the daemon player loses outright due to this. Hello, random much? Tone it down a little in certain places, up a little in others. What is for example the difference between d6+3 S3 hits (Tz result) and a template doing S10 d6 wounds in the center (nurgle result)!?! Seriously :) I dislike the chariot cannon though.


Chaos Dwarves

I'm torn here. They have some truly retarded stuff (like, for example, all their war machines and their magic) and some very underwhelming stuff (like, for example, everything else in their book). They are like softer dwarves with a magic phase. I dont like the race as a concept, and it is poorly executed.


Dwarves

Too static. Unless you just go all gyro. Theres one competitive list (dont kid yourselves, dwarf players with close combat lists!!!) and that involves shoving as many war machines and gyros on the table as you can. Their WMs are exceptional (as they should be), but maybe I feel they are a little too much. With 2-3 cannons and an organ gun + mass shooting core, its really difficult to get anything close to them. Meanwhile the gyros rip your stuff up. Rock paper scissors matchup - either you hide and 10-10 or you rush and its either 0-20 or 20-0...


Brettonia

It always felt strange to me that the definition of knight nation has some of the weakest knights in the game. Get them 1+ armour save already, at least their special cav. And get some of them S6 on the charge too. Otherwise, with some point cost balance, I feel like brets actually got it pretty good.


Empire

Ok. Uncomped, empire is definitely in the contender for the strongest armybook. Double banishment which can easily and cheaply be S7 and S8, cannons, unbreakable tank units and 1+ armour across the board. I'm not sure what to say. With magic support, nothing touches their units, but without it they cant punch a hole in a wet cardboard wall. Well written book, but 1+ knights in core is stupid.


Lizardmen

A 'cool' book. Seriously lacks tools to handle armour, but that is actually about it. Especially with end times you can do some nasty stuff. Life slann + metal slann for those dweller + final combinations, mass poison and skink cloud to slow down enemies, potent close combat heroes. All they need is a source of ranged high S shots to back it up... With that, they would be an exceptional army. Without it, they are abit meh.


Vampire Counts

Well designed book. Maybe vampire lords can become a little too untouchable in close combat, but other than that they play like I feel they should. Nasty screams from beyond the graves, hordes of zombies and skeletons, and big monstrosities.


Tomb Kings

Very magic dependent. I feel like the army is a little static (well, very static), and being forced to take a nehekhara wizard before they start stacking up their mandatory light council is a shame. Though, with an uncomped magic phase, they are scary indeed. Good book, not great.


Ogre Kingdoms

Suffer maybe from a lack of mobility. Can make versatile lists, but i dislike the concept of a chariot cannon =] Hellheart maybe a little too strong, ogre busses a little brutal but can be handled with magic.


Greenskin

An army that you would think is about melee - but is not! Instead, they are a gunline army. This strikes me as weird, but what can you do. Doom divers are both strong and weak... I think their army is pretty balanced as it stands. This also is evident from the fact that their only ETC comp is: no comp :P

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WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:14 am
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Shade
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Great post Thraundil. I think you summed up most armies pretty well.

I'm not too upset with Dwarven armies, sure their organ guns hitting on 2+ re-rolling misfires is a bit much, but I think mainly their book is miles ahead of their old one. Daemons of chaos reign of chaos chart is pretty random, I personally love it "life is like a box of chocolates". But a lot of people do hate it, so maybe tone it down a bit.

And you nailed it that there is a problem with to many 1+ amour flying characters. Maybe there should be a movement penalty for armour like barding on normal horses? -1 move for 3+ save, -2 for 2+save and -3 move for a 1+ save? I think most people would chose the movement penalty over lowering their armour save.

Oh yeah and Orcs, I forgot about them :oops: (updated my previous post)


Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:03 pm
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Killed by Khorne
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Thanks for the comments guys!

@General Kael

General Kael wrote:
Neat idea T.D. I have a couple of ideas, whether or not they are balanced is debatable.

General rules:

1- always strike first no longer gives re-rolls with higher initiative but gives a +1 to hit.

2- The initial point for a cannon scatters D3-1 inches, and cannons only blow up on the roll of a 1 on the misfire chart.

3- Magic resistance in addition to increasing ward saves also subtracts from casting values of spells targeting the bearer equal to the level of resistance.

4- Maybe make being disrupted also remove the inspiring presence and hold your ground rules unless the general or BSB are in the combat? or reduced to half range?


1. On ASF; I don't want to let the cat out of the bag just yet, but let's just say there will be no Elves striking Brettonian lance formations then teleporting backwards to get in place to be hit by the lance ;)

2. Cannon scatter is something I will cogitate on.

3. MR affecting casting -- Genius idea!

4. I think disruption is a penalty enough tbh.

General Kael wrote:
Dark elves:

1- medusa are now units of 1 to 3 models and gain the skirmish and quick to fire rule.

2- cauldron of blood only gives re-rolls to wound on the unit is in.

3- Fleet master... remove from book :killed:

4- The hydra blade gives either bonus attacks or heroic killing blow, the bearer may choose.

5- nerf warlocks or raise their points cost.


1. That would be an awesome fix for the Medusa. As well as a points drop.

2. Something I'll look into.

3. I like the suggestion elsewhere on D.net on a switch to Hero with BSB option.

4. Another genius fix!

5. Nerf Warlocks. Are you insane? Image But I suppose something has to be done :P


General Kael wrote:
High elves:

1- Banner of the world dragon no longer protects from miscasts


BoTWD and other broken elements of 8th will be getting nerfed. Not exactly sure on which direction to go when recreating it atm.


General Kael wrote:
wood elves:

1- forest spirits ward save increases from a 6+ to 5+


Forest Spirits will be getting the option to buy strength upgrades.
I'd love to up wards to 5++ but will have to look into the balance. 8th Woodies are well balanced, and while I want to soup up close combat options I have to be careful incase I make them unbeatable :P

General Kael wrote:
Beastmen:

1- make all rare choices about 225 points.

2- beastmen can take marks


1. Their monsters are definitely overcosted.

2. Marks is one good and fluffy fix to an underpowered army. I'd like to see their backstory to get more ideas on how to make them an exciting faction to play.

General Kael wrote:
Warriors of chaos:

1- mark of nurgle costs 50% more

2- daemon princes are not unbreakable, they gain daemonic instability.


1. MoN will be getting redone.

2. Instability is another great and fluffy fix.

General Kael wrote:
Daemons of chaos:

1- beasts of nurgle cannot challenge.

2- daemonic gifts may be exchanged for any item of equal value not just weapons.

3- skull cannon point increase to 160.


If I have the book I can work out internal and external balance. I don't have the Daemons books so will have to get back to you on this.

3. I can say there will be no support for skillcannons due to their fluff-and game-breaking qualities.

General Kael wrote:
Empire:

1- Slight points increase for demigryph knights.


Definitely undercosted as is.

General Kael wrote:
Tomb Kings:

1- combined undead armies of the end times rules apply

2- Ushabti reduced to 40 points.

3- casket of souls points increase to 165


TK really need an army-wide fix, but will have to look into their list more deeply to work it out.

General Kael wrote:
Ogre kingdoms

1- saber tusks point increase to 35 points.

2- Iron blaster increase to 200 points.


Thanks for reminding me the Ogre Kingdoms exist !lol!

Chariot cannons are broken, but tbh fit the Ogre list and compensate for their lacks. Will look into their cost.

General Kael wrote:
So there it is, I might have gotten a little carried away :oops: Thoughts?


Not at all; I really benefitted from reading your ideas 8)

The more discussion, the better as far as I'm concerned :D

I want this project to be community-driven; the reason I'm writing it solo is because "creation by committee" does not work -- it often results in a battle of wills, and the final offering more often than not lacks coherence. If I serve as the decision making nexus, then I'll be able to create a coherent expansion pack quickly.

But as I say, community driven is the spirit and I will take on all ideas from all Warhammer players (and even those who don't play, if their ideas are good enough :P) and "percolate them" towards balanced entertainment for one and all :)

@Thraundil

Thraundil wrote:
Broken / bad concept:

- The cheapness and high availability of flying units. All kind of flying units, but in particular flying monsters and flying characters. It forces the game in an annoying direction of rock paper scissors, and flying big guys are just a little too strong. Replace fly with hover (I have no issue with a long charge range, but I majorly dislike the 20" movement!! Yes - coming from a pegasus heavy player indeed), or place a hard cap on # of flying units in the army. Or a hard cover on a fliers armour save - how much armour can a flying unit carry? Not a 1+ thats for damned sure. Not without maybe suffering a strength penalty?


Flight is definitely the most powerful special rule in the game, as well as being undercosted.
Ideally, I'd like to see a rock-paper-scissors analogue of dealing with flyers as in modern warfare. This would involve certain weapons, WM and Magic having "anti-air" qualities.
However this would mean overhauling flight, weapons, artillery and magic, and I don't want to make such drastic changes straight away. It's definitely something I'd be looking into for V2.0 :P
Atm Flight is a necessary counter to gunlines and a new tactical scenario I'm introducing so it will be much as is.

Thraundil wrote:
- The way war machines work. Examples: RBT's are super sick vs flak and WM hunters, but they are seriously appalling against 'what you bring them for' - monsters and to a certain extent anti armour. Then you have cannons which are horribly strong vs big things due to their ease of hitting, but suck major bazumba vs flak and WM hunters. I wish there was a way to make artillery pieces decent vs most things, but not horribly broken vs certain things. Suggestion: make WM's use the same mechanism to hit across the board. I like how a strong thrower scatters, but I really really dont like how a cannon has an overwhelming 66% chance to hit a monster base no matter how much stuff we put in between! When I think of 4 RBT's dealing on average 2 wounds per turn to a T6 monster, and a single cannon doing I believe 3 average wounds... No, just no. Balance this out. I know they are different things with different roles but it bothers me so much =)


I know what you mean, but trebuchets, ballistae and cannons both operate so differently and are used for such different purposes that I don't mind the current way they work.
But as with the earlier point, it is something that I'd like to review later.

Thraundil wrote:
Dark Elves

I honestly dont feel there are any downright broken sides to DE (aside from mass fliers, look above). Brolock busses can be handled the same way any bus is handled - flak it up and use wiper spells. I do however feel like the DE armybook suffers from a major major lack of internal synergy. Our infantry is weak as all hell since they got no defenses whatsoever. Our heavy cavalry is even bad in a meta where you go 1+ or you go home. 30 points a pop for T3 with 2+ armour save? Pass.
DE (and elves as a whole?) has a serious problem with enemy fliers. Bolt throwers has an average of 2W on a T6 monster, and they barely take a wound off a T4 4+ ward save character before he undoubtedly charges the following turn. Land bound monsters can be handled with poison, but a flier chooses which combat it wants, and we have no real means of stopping them save for playing super defensive and setting up counter charges with our own power units. Which essentially is what the opponent wants: more time for them to cast magic on our hardhitters.


I agree. For the fix ...wait and see ;)

Thraundil wrote:
High Elves

One of the best written books IMO. The internal balance is amazing. You can do all-cavalry, all-infantry, heavy monster or a mix, and it can all work. HE like to cry that their characters cant get 1+ armour save with mundane equipment, but I honestly feel like this is the single place in which DE has the better book. Well that, and warlocks I guess. Their mages has access to some of the nastiest combo's and the strongest arcane item in the game. Their infantry has the potential for amazing protection without really giving up on their combat power. They have the strongest dragon in the game, and the hands-down strongest monster in the game: the frostheart phoenix (ASL and -1S is such a brutal aura! Its basically phantasmagoria and enfeebling foe autocast...). Not to mention the best magic banner in the game (design fail that it makes miscasts basically not threatening at all!!!!!). Seriously, what are they moaning about?!? Their core selection could be better. Its basically silver helms or silver helms, along with some reavers. But that is not bad, really...


Frosties are UC/OP, which takes away from the magnificence of Dragons in my view. At the moment I'm not sure of the best way to "fix" it.
There are a few problems with the army book though IMO, such as Swordmasters and White Lions not being properly differentiated.
Banner will be nerfed, but they will gain a little more combat power and even more flexibility elsewhere.

Thraundil wrote:
Wood Elves

They do two things well. Shooting and countercharging. They do this better than any other race. In fact, they do it so well its hard to really get close to them, and harder yet to beat them. A well written book, but I feel like WE are a one trick pony (or well, two trick pony then) that are just way too good at doing those tricks. Only nasty nasty things and list tailoring really seem to work....


Agree strongly. I'm going to enable them to play different styles including combat Forest Spirits, as it will make for a more enjoyable game for both Woodies and their opponent.
How I do this without putting them into the stratosphere is another matter entirely :P

Thraundil wrote:
Skaven

Haha. Super poor book with heavy mark of being an edition old. Some things are retardedly broken, some things are so bad its almost worth crying. Could do with an update for sure. HPA, WLC at the same price we give for a bolt thrower, the doomwheel with d3 wound shots, the cheap slave tarpits... Well I guess they need these things since their heroes and regular rank-and-file troops cant fight for shiz. But theres about a million of them so who cares, really.


Yep, needs some fixing. I'd like to have access to all their old AB to get a feel for making them powerful yet not broken.

Thraundil wrote:
Beastmen

One of the weaker books. All they got going for them are chariots (which warriors do even better) and hordes of infantry. In my local meta they are kind of the punching bag... Sorely lack ranged power. End times fixes some of their issues, with them being able to take marks, but they are still a static army which cant collect points if you decide to not let them.


Beastmen have some unrealised potential and I'd like to bring it out in order to make playing them/vs them a more exciting proposition.

Thraundil wrote:
Warriors of Chaos

Uncomped, disclords are retarded. I've always felt the WoC race was a great place to start out with warhammer, since you basically deploy your stuff and shove it across the table, safe in the knowledge that block vs block, warriors will win. Their core beats our special, their special beats our rare, their heroes beats our lords. Overall a very forgiving book and I wish there would be some weaknesses to exploit somewhere. They are 'static' (flying disc heroes and chimera solves this) but thats about it really.


Agree on all points.

I can say there will be no 3++ re-rolling 1s shenanigans, but otherwise WoC should IMO always be a forgiving list in the hands of new players.

Game engine changes should improve their playability, internal and external balance.

Thraundil wrote:
Daemons of Chaos

Reign of chaos is not very well designed. Some games it does nothing, some games it basically wins the game for the daemon player, and some games the daemon player loses outright due to this. Hello, random much? Tone it down a little in certain places, up a little in others. What is for example the difference between d6+3 S3 hits (Tz result) and a template doing S10 d6 wounds in the center (nurgle result)!?! Seriously :) I dislike the chariot cannon though.


Another book I don't have access to atm. I'd really need to look into the list in depth to balance it out while retaining the fun/fluff.

Thraundil wrote:
Chaos Dwarves

I'm torn here. They have some truly retarded stuff (like, for example, all their war machines and their magic) and some very underwhelming stuff (like, for example, everything else in their book). They are like softer dwarves with a magic phase. I dont like the race as a concept, and it is poorly executed.


I'll disagree with you slightly here, as I've always had a soft spot for CD, going back to their first reboot during 4th (published in White Dwarf). I like the fact they went from mini-Chaos Warriors to evil Dark Lands overlording midget Gozer the Gozarians :mrgreen:

I think their Forge World models are some of the most beautiful in Warhammer, and I'd like to add the flexibility that is sorely lacking from their current list.

(If any CD players are reading this. Send me a PDF :P )

Thraundil wrote:
Dwarves

Too static. Unless you just go all gyro. Theres one competitive list (dont kid yourselves, dwarf players with close combat lists!!!) and that involves shoving as many war machines and gyros on the table as you can. Their WMs are exceptional (as they should be), but maybe I feel they are a little too much. With 2-3 cannons and an organ gun + mass shooting core, its really difficult to get anything close to them. Meanwhile the gyros rip your stuff up. Rock paper scissors matchup - either you hide and 10-10 or you rush and its either 0-20 or 20-0...


Agree.
I would have went down a completely different direction than GW did when "improving" them for the new book.

Thraundil wrote:
Brettonia

It always felt strange to me that the definition of knight nation has some of the weakest knights in the game. Get them 1+ armour save already, at least their special cav. And get some of them S6 on the charge too. Otherwise, with some point cost balance, I feel like brets actually got it pretty good.


On the contrary there is a big difference in survivability between gothic plate (Empire) and chain mail/early plate (Bret) knightly armour, and this is represented in game.
But otherwise I agree they need some more power in their cavalry.

Thraundil wrote:
Empire

Ok. Uncomped, empire is definitely in the contender for the strongest armybook. Double banishment which can easily and cheaply be S7 and S8, cannons, unbreakable tank units and 1+ armour across the board. I'm not sure what to say. With magic support, nothing touches their units, but without it they cant punch a hole in a wet cardboard wall. Well written book, but 1+ knights in core is stupid.


I don't mind the 1+ Knights as it is a fair representation of a Renaissance force. Empire are good, but it would be nice if they didn't need the bells and whistles (magic laser chariots?) to perform.
Empire are the flagship faction in this expansion pack. How? Wait and see ;)

Thraundil wrote:
Lizardmen

A 'cool' book. Seriously lacks tools to handle armour, but that is actually about it. Especially with end times you can do some nasty stuff. Life slann + metal slann for those dweller + final combinations, mass poison and skink cloud to slow down enemies, potent close combat heroes. All they need is a source of ranged high S shots to back it up... With that, they would be an exceptional army. Without it, they are abit meh.


Do LM have any warmachines in their back catalogue of older editions? That might be one interesting addition.
As things stand I've taken inspiration from ancient warfare to give the Lizzies a new spin on how they approach mass battles.

Thraundil wrote:
Vampire Counts

Well designed book. Maybe vampire lords can become a little too untouchable in close combat, but other than that they play like I feel they should. Nasty screams from beyond the graves, hordes of zombies and skeletons, and big monstrosities.


I'll have to look at Vamp Lords abilities to ensure balance, but otherwise they seem a well-designed force.

Thraundil wrote:
Tomb Kings

Very magic dependent. I feel like the army is a little static (well, very static), and being forced to take a nehekhara wizard before they start stacking up their mandatory light council is a shame. Though, with an uncomped magic phase, they are scary indeed. Good book, not great.


All the TK players I know are disillusioned with their army, and they are almost tourney-absent; so a serious army-wide fix is necessary.
I think the no marching/lore of Nekehara axis is what needs to be looked at.

Thraundil wrote:
Ogre Kingdoms

Suffer maybe from a lack of mobility. Can make versatile lists, but i dislike the concept of a chariot cannon =] Hellheart maybe a little too strong, ogre busses a little brutal but can be handled with magic.


Chariot cannons are in danger of breaking the game, but with Ogre Kingdoms I feel they need that tactical option to stop them from being mono-dimensional.

Thraundil wrote:
Greenskin

An army that you would think is about melee - but is not! Instead, they are a gunline army. This strikes me as weird, but what can you do. Doom divers are both strong and weak... I think their army is pretty balanced as it stands. This also is evident from the fact that their only ETC comp is: no comp :P


I'd like to encourage the option of a more melee oriented force.


Thanks for you comments gents; really helps me out.

My main issue at the moment is lack of data in regards to army lists and race specific special rules. I had several 5-7th AB kicking about on my old computer ..but the hard drive decided to die. I guess I will need to do a Scribd search amongst online others :P

Or perhaps make a Universal Battles account?

There will probably be loads of 8th variants popping up over the coming months, but I've made some game engine changes which are likely to be pretty novel.

Some will like it, some will dislike it ...but at the end of the day it is just an exercise in having fun 8)

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The notion of something being overpowered only makes sense with regards to a set of rules (and to the terrain where you most often play and your meta). If you are going to change the core rules the usefulness of certain choices will probably change as well. Therefore, I am not sure how much is such a feedback of value.

A few general concepts I might like changed would be (without giving it too much thought):
- it should be impossible to kill off key models as long as their owner plays well. This would require an automatic look out! or something. Also, death magic might need a rework - though it can be mitigated by wards and not allowing the opponent to go in range.
- spells should be more about buffing and hexing and less about killing outright. A 2d6 fireball is good (some armies have very limited options to remove flak outside of magic), dwellers is bad.
- those two changes would promote deathstars so there would need to be some other deterrent.
- I am not sure if high tougness and good armour really should have such an effect. So far, a spearman needs to hit a knight 12 times to score a wound on average. If you were unable to go better than 3+ for example it would make heavy cavalry still strong but beatable by normal forces and more importantly, it would restrict super powerful heroes heavily. You would probably need to rework the AS modifiers, too.
Similarly, reworking the strength/toughness table would shift the power further from lone models to regiments. Armour might suffice, though.
- make elves elite! :D They should be squishy, expensive but still worth it. Most of our troops are the former two but not the latter. I really like the concept of SoS in this regard.

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Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:11 pm
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Marchosias wrote:
If you are going to change the core rules the usefulness of certain choices will probably change as well.


Indeed! The dynamics will most certainly shift.

Marchosias wrote:
Therefore, I am not sure how much is such a feedback of value.


It's still going to be Warhammer, based on 8th, so all feedback is valuable, even if the degrees of relevance vary.

I'm not going to be able to please everyone, but if a few people enjoy it, or even use it as a basis for developing their own houserules, then the effort will have been worthwhile in my mind.

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Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:34 pm
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i swear one used to be able to but familiars for spellcasters. that extended ranges etc. remember that? or am i making it up... warhammer quest or something?!


Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:25 pm
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Familiars were awesome :D

All wizards could take them in 4th, but now only Chaos can IIRC.

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A quick reply here, which I'll come back to edit as more things strike me! Awesome project!

Generally the notes about flying above make sense. The biggest piece of flying that seems wrong is the idea that they have to land at the end of movement - it just feels silly, and an obvious shortcut so the game can work in 2D/turns (i.e. you can't charge under a flyer to reach something else, because 2D/turns is too clunky too capture the fluid "everything is actually happening at once" nature of what was probably going on). I'd tweak it so flyers stay in the air until they charge and can end turns over units or terrain.

This would be a big bonus, I'd balance it with the other thing that seems fair - if a flyer take damage, whilst speeding along thirty feet off the ground, it might lose control and crash. Something like if a flyer that's wounds, LD check with penalty of wound number or it crashes 2d6 inches along last line of movement and lots of pain is inflicted on it and people it hits.

Generally I think 8th is weak on magic item choice and customisation. I'd bring back lots of items - heaps more, especially common. If building a new game (rather than just a tweak) I'd want more options to upgrade characters with special abilities or to choose how stat increases per level were distributed, to make more individual tailoring easier. More mount choices too. That's just me and my D&D background... !

Chaos have always felt OP, so a little merging of the stuff they're bad at would be overdue. The randomness of the DOP needs reigning in (pun intended).

For Dark Elves I'd look at the assassin as something for a cost/power boost. It's such a quintessential DE unit, and hard to take on merit. They should be better at killing stuff and living up the bad ass reputation the fluff gives them. A ward save boost? May they should cost more, or you could inflict a -1 LD on the entire DE host until the assassin is revealed as all Druchii fear the unseen presence of a killer used against their own as often as others. Something major both ways.

Fleetmaster needs either a reason to be taken or a shove off the plank! Special rules could be so much cooler.

Love the idea of skirmishing medusae above, and more monster choice for armies with a Beastmaster.

Beastman are hard done by. I play them quite a bit, and they don't seem to have the punch or power you'd expect from cool fluff. Think their could be a lot more imagination on their units. More horns, tusks, cloud of flies, etc. upgrades for whole units to customise. Their monsters should be more effective - at the moment it feels like they have superficially interesting special rules, rather than anything deeply impactful. I'd like to see them given a little more sparkle, some ward save tattoos and a spell casting rank and file - something that gives the opponent the same foreboding as felt by Empire hamlets on the edge of the wood when a distant hoot or howl pierces the early hours of the morning.

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Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:39 pm
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T.D. wrote:
Wood Elves
- 8th List: Overpowered and Underpowered components? What tools the list lacks? Points value changes? Internal and External balance?
- Old Characters you'd like to see back
- Old Magic Items you'd like to see back
- Old Units / Special Rules you'd like to see back


- Dryads have become underpowered or overcosted, so either a return to former stats or a price decrease would serve well. I'd almost lean towards a price decrease to stop all forest spirit armies but that's just my opinion.
- Treeman Ancients with some access to magic items would be nice and make them more usable, say 50 points tops.
- +5 ward for forest spirits.
- Wardancer +1 strength on the charge would be nice.


- Kindreds and spites for characters would be great, that was one of the best things about Wood Elf characters before.
- Talismanic Tattoos being able to be purchased in equipment or even upgraded for the right price.
- Scarloc! How he's not in the current book I have no idea.
- Ariel
- Naieth the Prophetess

- Rhymer's Harp, Stone of the Crystal Mere, Blades of Loec, Annoyance of Netlings, A Pageant of Shrikes, Stone of Rebirth.

- A unique Lore of Athel Loren; something that allows for summoning forests and forest spirits in the same way that Lore of Undeath allows for summoning undead would give the asrai an unique feel and play style, only one or even no direct damage spells, just summoning and buffing... something like that would be great.


Also, just in general, an actual alliance system like earlier ed's would be very nice without going to the full HOTEK army list craziness.

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Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:04 am
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Thanks for the comments, gents.

@flatswordsedge

flatworldsedge wrote:
Generally the notes about flying above make sense. The biggest piece of flying that seems wrong is the idea that they have to land at the end of movement - it just feels silly, and an obvious shortcut so the game can work in 2D/turns (i.e. you can't charge under a flyer to reach something else, because 2D/turns is too clunky too capture the fluid "everything is actually happening at once" nature of what was probably going on). I'd tweak it so flyers stay in the air until they charge and can end turns over units or terrain.

This would be a big bonus, I'd balance it with the other thing that seems fair - if a flyer take damage, whilst speeding along thirty feet off the ground, it might lose control and crash. Something like if a flyer that's wounds, LD check with penalty of wound number or it crashes 2d6 inches along last line of movement and lots of pain is inflicted on it and people it hits.


In air/out of air is what I'm thinking of as well. But that would best be done in context with a large overhaul as discussed above, which I don't want to commit to atm.

flatworldsedge wrote:
Generally I think 8th is weak on magic item choice and customisation. I'd bring back lots of items - heaps more, especially common. If building a new game (rather than just a tweak) I'd want more options to upgrade characters with special abilities or to choose how stat increases per level were distributed, to make more individual tailoring easier. More mount choices too. That's just me and my D&D background... !


I agree with you here, though there are some challenges to balance.

The issue with magic items is twofold; (1) more items, many more potential combinations, including broken ones, (2) power level i.e rather than army vs army, or character vs character, battles come down to magic item vs magic item -- my Hellfire Sword vs your Pendant of Khaeleth.

With upgrades there is a similar issue; does everyone not just go for the power builds, and instead of variety there is power build vs power build?

GW have been removing the items to cut down on possible combinations to ensure more levelled play, and in general they have been successful with a well-balanced 8th. Less power in the items, more in actual units and combined formations; improving both the play experience and the game balance.

They have also been doing customisation in terms of whole lists (formations), so different themes can be employed, rather than just a monoculture of power army builds.

But I agree with you that magic items and upgrades add character to the gaming experience.

With magic items, I think a lot of low power but well costed ones are good, and more powerful items have to be justifiable in terms of filling in army weaknesses, or ensuring they can be countered/matched in some way by all opponents.

For upgrades, I like a development tree approach where i.e. your Elector Count of Averland has special Averland qualities accessible. In that way people can create custom characters with a backstory for themselves.

Even better, if rather than buying upgrades (tending automatically to power builds) they were earned in the course of real battlefield events. That would be perfect IMO: self-generated rewards based on performance, and giving characters, ahem, character, along the way of army play :)

...but such a project would be V2.0 ;)

flatworldsedge wrote:
The randomness of the DOP needs reigning in (pun intended).


Do you have any ideas of how it could be improved?

- Also, does anyone familiar with Daemons have ideas here?

flatworldsedge wrote:
For Dark Elves I'd look at the assassin as something for a cost/power boost. It's such a quintessential DE unit, and hard to take on merit. They should be better at killing stuff and living up the bad ass reputation the fluff gives them. A ward save boost? May they should cost more, or you could inflict a -1 LD on the entire DE host until the assassin is revealed as all Druchii fear the unseen presence of a killer used against their own as often as others. Something major both ways.


Some nice ideas. I don't want to touch them too much atm ...incase my inner fanboy gets out of control :P

flatworldsedge wrote:
Beastman are hard done by. I play them quite a bit, and they don't seem to have the punch or power you'd expect from cool fluff. Think their could be a lot more imagination on their units. More horns, tusks, cloud of flies, etc. upgrades for whole units to customise. Their monsters should be more effective - at the moment it feels like they have superficially interesting special rules, rather than anything deeply impactful.


Lots of good ideas.

flatworldsedge wrote:
I'd like to see them given a little more sparkle, some ward save tattoos and a spell casting rank and file - something that gives the opponent the same foreboding as felt by Empire hamlets on the edge of the wood when a distant hoot or howl pierces the early hours of the morning.


A wonderfully evocative image and a sentiment I agree completely with!

@makiwara

Hey man! You've basically read my mind in regards to improving Wood Elves 8)

Makiwara wrote:
- Dryads have become underpowered or overcosted, so either a return to former stats or a price decrease would serve well. I'd almost lean towards a price decrease to stop all forest spirit armies but that's just my opinion.


Former stats :)
I'd like to enable all forest spirits list for several reasons:
- I'd like WE to be able to do combined arms well. It gives more variety both to the WE player and his/her opponent, and helps to balance the game overall.
- I'd like all races of the warhammer world to feel the terror of the awakened wood; Saruman vs Ents style :mrgreen:
- I'd like WE to be able to fight internecine woody battles.
- I'd like to enable WE collectors to mobilise their large collections of Dryads, Treekin, and Treemen :)

Makiwara wrote:
- Treeman Ancients with some access to magic items would be nice and make them more usable, say 50 points tops.
- +5 ward for forest spirits.
- Wardancer +1 strength on the charge would be nice.


I'm leaning towards 5+ ward for FS. Magic items on the other hand is unfluffy; but giving them access to similar abilities through Spites (or Sprites as I like to call them) is not ;)

Makiwara wrote:
- Kindreds and spites for characters would be great, that was one of the best things about Wood Elf characters before.
- Talismanic Tattoos being able to be purchased in equipment or even upgraded for the right price.
- Scarloc! How he's not in the current book I have no idea.
- Ariel
- Naieth the Prophetess

- Rhymer's Harp, Stone of the Crystal Mere, Blades of Loec, Annoyance of Netlings, A Pageant of Shrikes, Stone of Rebirth.


8th Character list is well balanced, so I don't want to mess about with it too much.
I will say though that Alters are coming back; so many great conversions are currently up on the shelves due to their squatting.
The old characters sound good (although could ET Alarielle not function as a counts as Ariel?)

Spites are coming back because they are both useful and fluffy 8)

Kindreds were another great idea. As I said above, I like a development tree approach to give character to special characters; not just for Wood Elves, but for all races of the Warhammer World. But it would be V2.0 if anywhere.

Makiwara wrote:
- A unique Lore of Athel Loren; something that allows for summoning forests and forest spirits in the same way that Lore of Undeath allows for summoning undead would give the asrai an unique feel and play style, only one or even no direct damage spells, just summoning and buffing... something like that would be great.


I really like your concepts here. A dedicated Lore of Athel Loren would be another big project that I would be open to in due course.
At the moment WE have excellent magic choice, including their old classics of Jade and Amber (Life and Beasts).

But if there is interest in this ruleset, then we can have this conversation in some depth on Asrai.org later on :)

Makiwara wrote:
Also, just in general, an actual alliance system like earlier ed's would be very nice without going to the full HOTEK army list craziness.


Up to 25% on Allies option for everyone is back.

@All

This project may well sink without a trace.

But if V1.0 does get a half decent reception, then I'd like to take the above questions to every race-specific forum and get all the communities involved in contributing their best ideas :)

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Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:47 pm
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T.D. wrote:
Up to 25% on Allies option for everyone is back.

From what I have heard (I did not play back when this was possible), this rule basically meant everyone was bringing as allies either cannons or heavy cavalry. What are your thoughts of that - will you require the allied force to come from core for example? Or adhere the same procents as a normal army, i.e. 25% core, max. 50% special and so on? You know, an allied force of three sabretusks and two skullcannons would be quite strong and I doubt this is the worst one can come up with. And ogres are a neutral faction, allowed to ally with anyone...

EDIT: Actually, this is just a subquestion of a far more general question. Is your system meant for competitive play or for narrative cinematic play? Or does it try to allow both? If this is the latter, you can include a paragraph stating:

Code:
This game does not aim to be balanced. Certain choices might be very strong and certain battles might be impossible to win. Talk with your opponent about your lists beforehand to create an enjoyable game.


And bam, you can have allies, tons of magic items and dozens of magic lores without worrying too much. If the players want a competitive game they will balance the games out themselves somehow. On the other hand, some of them are seeking a game ready for tournaments and they would be disappointed. Still, at least they stop reading right at the start. Saves them some time and you some complaints. :)

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Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:27 am
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Purely from an internal balance point of view, I'd say:
- Make spearmen, darkshards, bleakswords, Black Guards 1 point cheaper
- Add 25 point armour piercing banner (but perhaps as common magic item?)

As for the fix for Warlocks: make that ward save a 5+ ward save, that's it. It doesn't make them weak, but that will make a hard felt difference. Mass low strength shooting gets a tremendous boost.

The Assassins need a relative boost, but I think the main issue isn't so much the Assasin himself. Rather I think (s)he suffers from the environment:
- Characters are built like tanks, with 1+ AS and 4++ being the norm. This makes them nigh impossible to kill and the entire concept of assassins useless who are easier to dispose of than a sniping cannon.
- Blanket ASF over some armies and some characters, which makes the Assassin's ASF bring little to the table

Possible hot fixes for the Assassin:
- Initiative roll off between Assassin and enemy character in the first round of combat, to grant the Assassin a one-round bonus
- Poison effects that work on "wounds", regardless if the armour and ward save block it, so that even in failure they can add value, such as lowered initiative, weapon skill or perhaps even gives "always strikes last" for the remainder of the battle though the latter seems overpowered.

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Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:57 am
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Thanks for the comments!

@Marchosias

Marchosias wrote:
From what I have heard (I did not play back when this was possible), this rule basically meant everyone was bringing as allies either cannons or heavy cavalry. What are your thoughts of that - will you require the allied force to come from core for example? Or adhere the same procents as a normal army, i.e. 25% core, max. 50% special and so on? You know, an allied force of three sabretusks and two skullcannons would be quite strong and I doubt this is the worst one can come up with. And ogres are a neutral faction, allowed to ally with anyone...


Allies would be recruited using the Battalion system I've developed for recruiting campaign-scale armies.

Essentially, it is a tree; with a mandatory core choice opening the possibility of a special choice, etc.

So allies in a regular game are likely to be if maxed out; two units, 1 core, 1 special, with a Hero, and possibly a WM squeezed in.

(As it looks like 9th is almost upon us, you'll find out more on this soon :) )

Marchosias wrote:
EDIT: Actually, this is just a subquestion of a far more general question. Is your system meant for competitive play or for narrative cinematic play? Or does it try to allow both? If this is the latter, you can include a paragraph stating:

Code:
This game does not aim to be balanced. Certain choices might be very strong and certain battles might be impossible to win. Talk with your opponent about your lists beforehand to create an enjoyable game.


And bam, you can have allies, tons of magic items and dozens of magic lores without worrying too much. If the players want a competitive game they will balance the games out themselves somehow. On the other hand, some of them are seeking a game ready for tournaments and they would be disappointed. Still, at least they stop reading right at the start. Saves them some time and you some complaints. :)


Thanks very much for this input :)

I do indeed intend to have a disclaimer, as there is no way I can possibly playtest it adequately. For this first edition a third person Gamesmaster is advised to review lists and develop a board/scenario if playing competitively.

Points values are going to be hard to get right because of the engine changes too.

However, I will make my best attempts to balance the game, and it is built to allow different styles of play:

- two leg battleline play
- one leg scenario play
- Roleplaying Story Campaign
- Short Campaign
- Long Campaign (integrating with turn based strategy/larger scale systems like GWs Mighty Empires and Warhammer Seige)
- modified rulesets for quick play/even more strategic play

@Daeron

Daeron wrote:
Purely from an internal balance point of view, I'd say:
- Make spearmen, darkshards, bleakswords, Black Guards 1 point cheaper
- Add 25 point armour piercing banner (but perhaps as common magic item?)

The Assassins need a relative boost, but I think the main issue isn't so much the Assasin himself. Rather I think (s)he suffers from the environment:
- Characters are built like tanks, with 1+ AS and 4++ being the norm. This makes them nigh impossible to kill and the entire concept of assassins useless who are easier to dispose of than a sniping cannon.
- Blanket ASF over some armies and some characters, which makes the Assassin's ASF bring little to the table

Possible hot fixes for the Assassin:
- Initiative roll off between Assassin and enemy character in the first round of combat, to grant the Assassin a one-round bonus
- Poison effects that work on "wounds", regardless if the armour and ward save block it, so that even in failure they can add value, such as lowered initiative, weapon skill or perhaps even gives "always strikes last" for the remainder of the battle though the latter seems overpowered.


Thanks for the comments. Most of these issues have been addressed at the game engine level (PM sent).

Daeron wrote:
As for the fix for Warlocks: make that ward save a 5+ ward save, that's it. It doesn't make them weak, but that will make a hard felt difference. Mass low strength shooting gets a tremendous boost.


This is a genius fix! Instantly turns them into useful but not broken magical fast cavalry ...rather than high speed Uber-cavalry.

*off to cry somewhere over my poor 'Loks*

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Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:41 pm
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