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If the kids think it's that big a deal, they should all emigrate to EU countries. Once enough leave, I imagine British businesses will sit up and take notice...

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Mod's edit: split from another thread, not related to Brexit.
Calisson


Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:20 pm
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If they think it's that big a deal, perhaps they should have turned out to vote in more impressive numbers...

The actual process of Brexit will be long and complex. Nothing will really change until October 2018 at the earliest, because David Cameron is (very wisely IMO) leaving it to his successor to invoke Article 50 of Lisbon, which is what starts the 2-year timer on formal exit negotiations.

Free movement may actually be part of whatever deal the UK and the EU agree to anyway. Even most of the Brexiteers say they want to stay in the Single Market, and that automatically includes free movement, reciprocal health care and a few other useful things. The goal seems to be that the UK has a similar relationship to the EU that Norway and Switzerland have.

Those who voted for Brexit with the assumption that it would stop migration from the EU are likely to be disappointed. The only way that would happen would be if we completely severed all ties, and that would probably obliterate our economy. There are already a lot of EU citizens living and working in the UK. Expelling them all or making them all apply for visas retroactively would make us the most hated country in Europe. Like, worse than Putinist Russia. Maybe even worse than America (j/k ;) ). Even without the inevitable tariffs on our exports, who in Europe would want to buy goods from 'Perfidious Albion'? Even Johnson and Gove aren't likely to risk that (Farage would, but even the other Brexiteers are unlikely to pay much attention to him). Actually closing our borders to the EU would also cause catastrophic trouble in Northern Ireland, for reasons that should be obvious.

We won't know any of the details of Brexit until the formal negotiations start, but I'm betting the actual impact turns out to be less than the Remainers feared and much less than the Brexiteers promised.

The Brexiteers are already starting to backtrack on their promises. Farage has disowned the "£350 million to spend on the NHS" lie. Daniel Hannan is talking about keeping free movement after all. It looks like, even with the Brexiteers in charge of our side of the negotiations, we're going to be frantically scrambling to keep as much of our relationship with the EU as we can.

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:35 am
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Reading the post above, it looks that the Brits voted to change their status from "we're half-in" to "we're half-out".

Well, the "half-in" position has infuriated EU leaders for decades, I'm not sure that they will accept the "half-out" that easily.

IMHO, what could be envisioned as a way-out-or-opt-back-in could be:
UK to negotiate with EU (and Scotland) the conditions of getting out, which are not known at the moment.
Once those conditions are known, a second referendum: do you prefer these conditions or, now that they are known, do you want to remain in EU as before?
Popular vote to prevail, for good, after two more years which better be used to reverse hypocrit EU scapegoat bashing.

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:50 pm
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Actually I hope the Scots and Irish will become independent asap and the UK is going to regret their leave.
Somehow they clearly find themselves superior to the other EU nations.

I hope the EU can do without the UK and it will lead to good reforms and improvement for the EU nations. If not, the EU is doomed (thank you UK for trying to repeat history and become more isolated and separated again). There are enough xenophobic ignorant leaders in the EU countries (Wilders in Netherlands) that also want an 'exit'. If the EU fails, we can welcome the European stagnation under loud cheering of the rest of the world.

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:26 pm
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From what i understand England wants to?nut none of the other states that make Great Britton want to?so it sill bd interesting to?see how thsy react should they go through with it.

Regardless expect.delaya from GW

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:22 pm
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England and Wales voted to leave, but by quite small margins. Northern Ireland voted to remain by a small margin. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain. Gibraltar voted 96% (!) to remain.

England has a much bigger population than Scotland, NI and Gibraltar put together, so its narrow leave vote overwhelmed their solid remain votes.

Scots, Gibraltarians and Republican/Catholic Northern Irish are really, really angry with the English right now.

I would be genuinely surprised if the UK still exists in a decade. As I see it, the only possible way the UK holds together is if we can make a reverse-Greenland-style arrangement work. In 1985, Greenland (which has basically the same relationship to Denmark as Scotland has to the UK) left the EU after a referendum, while the rest of Denmark remained in. Theoretically, England and Wales could leave the EU, while the rest of the UK remained in. That would require a lot of legislative collyfobbling, though. And Westminster, Holyrood, Stormont, Brussels and every EU state would all have to agree.

Oh, BTW, Sterling has dropped like a rock and will probably drop even further when the markets reopen tomorrow. So now is a good time for non-British to pick up some bargains on minis from British sellers on Ebay. If you're an American, your dollars should get you a good 10%+ more £-denominated stuff than it would have a week ago.

A small silver lining for me is that I had a lot of US$ in my business PayPal account. By converting it to £ now rather than a week ago, I've made about £1000 profit!

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Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:22 am
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Lord Drakon wrote:
Actually I hope the Scots and Irish will become independent asap and the UK is going to regret their leave.
Somehow they clearly find themselves superior to the other EU nations.


I was in favour of remaining. I wouldn't say it is a matter of superiority, but the constant message about the eu from the media was that Brussels was "in charge" and "not democratic". The British are an oddity in Europe as an island nation - a border we can see and a history without invasion for nearly 1000 years.

The immigration issue hasn't been helped by our own nation's inability to build houses, despite forecasts of numbers of people who are supposedly coming (probably not any more...).

The weird thing is that the British have a history of encouraging free trade and working with others. This time I think we've failed to live up to that.

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Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:47 am
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Rork wrote:
the constant message about the eu from the media was that Brussels was "in charge" and "not democratic".

Which is a completely crazy argument. The EU body that gets held up as the examplar of "unelected eurocrats" is the European Commission. But that's like complaining about civil servants in Whitehall being unelected! The Commission is basically the EU's civil service. The European Parliament is the elected, democratic bit that debates and passes legislation. And we get to vote for them in proper free-and-fair elections. As a country with quite a large population, we Brits actually get a lot of MEPs. Which means we get a big say in how the EU is run. Or we did... :roll:

Oh, and the "unelected" Commissioners are nominated to their positions by the democratically elected governments of the EU member states (via the Council of Ministers), and then confirmed by a vote in the democratically elected European Parliament!

The really infuriating thing is that the people who constantly moan about the EU not being democratic or representative enough are also, almost without exception, among our most ardent monarchists. Their hypocrisy is breathtaking.

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Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:15 am
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I just think there is a sector of the media and among older people that don't realise the world has moved on as much as it has - the British no longer tell other countries what to do and actually have to compromise to work with those nations.

This could turn out to be the referendum equivalent of the Suez Crisis.

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Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:00 pm
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Don't blame me - I voted Remain.

Sadly I got outvoted by a horde of weed-smoking, knuckle-dragging chavs off the council estates :(

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:51 am
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I'm very pro-Euro... But not in the sense that the EU system we have now is the end all be all of projects. Rather, I just feel European, allied and close to our fellow European countries. I don't love the regulation from Europe itself... I just fail to see the added value of some things being different in every country. So of course, purely from a principle and structure point, I like to see a EU government that unifies our countries and lays down some common laws. To me it just makes sense.
I fail to see the point for each country to have its own interpretation of the same Human Rights.
Can they really be that different? Should they be?

Just to be clear, my love is not with the system but the citizens with whom we share such a long and conflicted history. At least at some level we have to agree that we share some goals, and a union is a great way to implement them.

I also think it's an economic necessity these days. We're too small alone to carry enough weight on the world's market and I see strength in economic unity. If only to make sure some rules can be enforced for our market. In the IT business alone, Europe managed to make a few cases which we never could have done so alone.

So I do see it as tragic that the UK is leaving.. BUT.. I hope that this sense of loyalty towards one another, this alliance and cooperation continues. That is more important than the EU in itself.
I hope our leaders won't forget that, when the negotiations begin. In spite of this event, we're still in this together. More than separatists might want you to believe. The distance between the European countries didn't change.

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:53 am
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I'm trying to think of comparisons here as I'm a yank from California. Is what England is wanting to do similar to what Texas has been threatening to do for the last 8 years under Obama?

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:15 pm
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Saintofm wrote:
Is what England is wanting to do similar to what Texas has been threatening to do for the last 8 years under Obama?

Not really. The EU is a voluntary union of independent countries, not a single country made up of a federation of states like the US. The EU has a legal mechanism for states to leave if they wish. As I understand it, Texas secessionists want to just unilaterally declare independence without any recognised legal basis.

No, it's more like those NWO conspiracy nuts who want the US to leave the United Nations.

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:45 pm
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Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:01 pm
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Haha!

Oh God, it really is Red Dwarf, isn't it? Space Corps Directives and all.

OK, so Kryten is obviously Germany. He has the crazy work ethic and he's literally programmed to obey the rules at all costs. He spends a lot of his time cleaning up after the others and usually is the one who saves the crew's arses. He'd like to be more human, but he doesn't really get some of the subtleties (e.g. lying).

Rimmer is the UK. He tries to make up new Space Corps Directives and doesn't have a clear grasp of the real ones (hence Kryten always having to correct him). He's an arrogant tosser who everyone else hates, but it all comes from a deep-seated sense of inadequacy. He's not happy if he doesn't feel he's in charge. He is obsessed with military history. He secretly wants to be Ace Rimmer and save the universe (while you are smoking him a kipper, because he will be back for breakfast).

Lister is Greece. He's basically a nice guy, but a bit lazy and irresponsible. He'd live in utter squalor if not for Kryten. But he's also the most morally courageous of the crew, and is actually smarter than Rimmer (on the rare occasions when he actually applies himself).

The Cat is France. I... shouldn't really have to explain this one, should I? :P

EDIT: Holly is Belgium. Keeps the whole thing running, though is sort of taken for granted by the crew. Has a mischievous sense of humour. Scary-smart, but a bit... peculiar. ;)

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:38 pm
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Shadowspite wrote:
Haha!

Oh God, it really is Red Dwarf, isn't it? Space Corps Directives and all.

OK, so Kryten is obviously Germany. He has the crazy work ethic and he's literally programmed to obey the rules at all costs. He spends a lot of his time cleaning up after the others and usually is the one who saves the crew's arses. He'd like to be more human, but he doesn't really get some of the subtleties (e.g. lying).

Rimmer is the UK. He tries to make up new Space Corps Directives and doesn't have a clear grasp of the real ones (hence Kryten always having to correct him). He's an arrogant tosser who everyone else hates, but it all comes from a deep-seated sense of inadequacy. He's not happy if he doesn't feel he's in charge. He is obsessed with military history. He secretly wants to be Ace Rimmer and save the universe (while you are smoking him a kipper, because he will be back for breakfast).

Lister is Greece. He's basically a nice guy, but a bit lazy and irresponsible. He'd live in utter squalor if not for Kryten. But he's also the most morally courageous of the crew, and is actually smarter than Rimmer (on the rare occasions when he actually applies himself).

The Cat is France. I... shouldn't really have to explain this one, should I? :P

EDIT: Holly is Belgium. Keeps the whole thing running, though is sort of taken for granted by the crew. Has a mischievous sense of humour. Scary-smart, but a bit... peculiar. ;)


Awesome - That's the most expert analysis of the EU that I've heard in quite some time :D

Oh yeah and for the record, I really have always seen the EU as something akin to the Star Trek model of a mostly benevolent united federation - sometimes officious, but ultimately well-intentioned. (At least that's how I'd like it to be, despite occasional evidence to the contrary). I still think that, on the whole though, the EU is a positive thing - but that's just my opinion :)

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:05 am
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And so AoS remains the one and only thing in the entire history of things that DP and I don't agree on. :P

Although, I think most Leave voters see the EU as more like Brazil (the Terry Gilliam film, not the actual country), rather than the Star Wars Empire. A totalitarian but ultimately incompetent bureaucracy, not a fascist military dictatorship.

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:05 am
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There are worse things than Brexit... England ousted from Euro league by Iceland...

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:50 pm
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Calisson wrote:
There are worse things than Brexit... England ousted from Euro league by Iceland...


Yeah apparently their football team mis-understood the headlines! :P

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:51 pm
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Belgium will try to finish the job on Friday ;)

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:22 pm
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Calisson wrote:
There are worse things than Brexit... England ousted from Euro league by Iceland...


Oh I don't know - Wales are still in it (well, until friday anyway - I like to think we can beat Belgium but it's going to be a tall order). For Wales to go further than England in a football tournament is unprecedented (in my lifetime anyway - in fact the last time Wales even qualified for a major football international was before I was born!)

Keeping my fingers crossed for friday, but short of some dark magic, I'm not holding my breath...

Now then, where did I put that spell book?

:twisted:

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:47 pm
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Darkprincess wrote:
Wales are still in it (well, until friday anyway - I like to think we can beat Belgium but it's going to be a tall order).


The critics in Belgium would agree. Wales is considered a tough opponent, with a very disciplined and well organised defence.
This makes it a dangerous game for Belgium which relies heavily on its offensive talent to dominate the game. Everything's set for a nearly traditional exciting game in the final 20 minutes.

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:53 pm
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Darkprincess wrote:
Don't blame me - I voted Remain.

Sadly I got outvoted by a horde of weed-smoking, knuckle-dragging chavs off the council estates :(


See, that sort of thing is exactly why they voted 'Leave', to spite the likes of us. We've got to stop that.


Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:14 am
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Barking Agatha wrote:
Darkprincess wrote:
Don't blame me - I voted Remain.

Sadly I got outvoted by a horde of weed-smoking, knuckle-dragging chavs off the council estates :(


See, that sort of thing is exactly why they voted 'Leave', to spite the likes of us. We've got to stop that.


:) What was the statement this week.

Out of Europe twice, once by Iceland the other by people who shop at Iceland...

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Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:48 pm
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Amboadine wrote:
Out of Europe twice, once by Iceland the other by people who shop at Iceland...

Umm... I shop at Iceland. For some things, anyway. They sell better frozen fish and vegetables than anyone else (heck, round here, their frozen fish is better than any other supermarket's fresh fish). So less of the stereotyping, please. Image ;)

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Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:31 pm
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