Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:05 am



Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
9th Age - ETC & Swedish collaboration rule set 
Author Message
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:25 pm
Posts: 334
pre-alpha rule set here:
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/topic/471 ... mposition/


and the actual swedish forum thread here:
http://swfbr.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9014


they've come down pretty hard on:
    warlocks
    sea dragon cloaks
    pegasii

actually very hard on all three. warlocks 30pts yeah but not 35!! SDC yeah limit it to a few characters or increase the points cost but T3 characters kinda need a bit of protection. and pegasii... well 90pts for one for a hero is far too much. see what you think and get back to me!!!


toots


Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:29 pm
Profile
Lost in the Chaos Wastes
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:49 pm
Posts: 105
It's too early to get concerned by the minutia; it's still very much a work in progress and I'm just happy someone is doing it in the first place. The great thing with this project is that they're actually listening to people's input. I'd urge anyone to register on that site and share what you think with the designers.

As long as other armies' annoying crutch units take it on the chin as well (i.e. Daemon Prince is apparently going to Stubborn instead of Unbreakable), I'm all in for 9th age.


Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:59 pm
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:24 am
Posts: 296
I had high hopes for their work and perhaps with time it will get there but right now I don't like it. So many arbitrary changes and for what? It is difficult to tell if you are working towards better balance when you change many things, it's just too chaotic.

I'm completely ok with warlocks costing 35 points and pegasus costing 70/90 points but the dark steed character losing fast cav option is lame. Why not make it more expensive? Removing it just tends towards elves becoming generic. The sea dragon cloak becoming a 6+ is painful too but I guess there is so much jimmy rustle over dark elf characters with 1+ armor saves that something has to give.


Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:10 am
Profile
Trainee Warrior

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:55 am
Posts: 29
Warlocks got hit HARD. using 4 or 5 dice and you can't cast the spell again the entire game? I could see 6 or maybe even 5, but the 4 is brutal. Throwing just 3 dice at the unboosted version of the spell will fail most times. The average on that is a 12.5 for a 13 to cast. That's just silly.

Maybe they mixed up the hero/lord on the pegasus. The lord is cheaper, that makes no sense.

I agree with your take on the SDC as well.

Other surprises for me for my woodies:
20pt increase for waystalker? They aren't that great to begin with. Sniping is VERY limited in use.
Trueflight 5pts? That's crazy. 18pts per model.
Sister and Wildriders with increases too. That's a big deal. WR are great, but they still fight like a wet tissue if they don't get the charge and have no lasting power. Sisters are great, and I guess this would limit the mage bunker a little bit. I'd agree with the increase, if you're using them in this way. Otherwise, I think they are fine the way they are.
23 points for waywatchers seems excessive too. At the end of the day its still a T3 elf. Give them the additional -1 to hit like chameleon skinks have and we might be at 23. But not as is.

Also, they've added vanguard to several units that already had it with fast cav. It isn't listed under fast cav, but isn't defined anyway. I guess that's a work in progress.


Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:06 am
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:24 am
Posts: 296
There is no way warlocks are escaping a considerable nerf, they are universally reviled. They are just way too good, and it'll be interesting to see where the dust settles on them in these efforts.

As for a peg mount costing more for heroes I suspect is due to the hero gaining +1 wound from the mount, so you can look on it as a better deal when paying a flat cost.

Hopefully the product of these changes is that armies have better external balance while retaining their individual character. I imagine in these earliest iterations DE are going to get hammered. I suppose it will be interesting to see the extent.


Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:04 pm
Profile
Black Guard

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:34 pm
Posts: 296
Quote:
Also, they've added vanguard to several units that already had it with fast cav. It isn't listed under fast cav, but isn't defined anyway. I guess that's a work in progress.


Thats because certain fast cav will retain their vanguard rule, while others lose it.

There has been quite a lot of discussion about the chaotic nature of this project. Many advocate for implementing the FAQ´s into the rules and clarify some things that needed attention, and then put out a first version for people to playtest. I for one belive this to be a good one! :) This is also a collaboration with the ETC comittee and I belive we´ll see a first version out soon after the ETC.

As with swecomp, dont worry, all armies get their fair share of nerfs :mrgreen:


Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:20 pm
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 971
The discussion has been moved - or at least added - to the Warhammer Forum, for those of us not lucky enough to read Swedish...

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=98

The Swede site is, well, in Swedish for the most part, and registering requires you answer a question in Swedish. A particularly hard task for us in America who are pretty bad with other languages... :oops:


Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:42 am
Profile
Black Guard

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:34 pm
Posts: 296
Google translate? :P The 9th age topics are in english, but yeah, the warhammer forum might be a lot easier :)


Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:01 pm
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:25 pm
Posts: 334
one suspects that we're going to get a good shanking... good effort Vulcan in trying to talk them down!

commence operation Damage Limitation!


Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:26 pm
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:24 am
Posts: 296
I can understand the need for nerfs especially on a case by case basis. However, I think a better strategy would be to bring weaker armies up than stronger armies down. From my perspective, even as part of the peanut gallery, they have quite the task ahead of them regardless of how they approach it !lol!


Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:57 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3831
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Warlocks were overpowered... But I simply would have brought their ward save down to 5+. You'd be amazed how much that would change them.
The loss of fast cav characters is painful, but I get why. They were creating nightmares to play against. BTW, this doesn't mean you can't make a dark steed bus, just that such a fighting unit will run/march like normal cavalry.
That makes sense, I think.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:10 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3831
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Also, this is clearly a FAQ/Errata approach. At the moment, RAW, casting a spell does not seem to cost power dice (you use the dice, you don't lose them). This only works within a context where consuming the power dice is considered self-evident :P The only effect describing a loss of powerdice is miscasts.

Additionally:
- No 50% restriction on special, but only 3 choices of the same unit. So max 3 RBTs, I think.
- Dwarven war machines moved to rare (not all though?) so that's interesting. But they get Drakeguns in special, sheesh. Apparently they don't have enough volume of fire.
- SDC being nerfed... "meh". It's still a very universal upgrade. I do think it deserves a reduced point cost as compensation (half?), especially for the Corsairs which can now be brought down to 9-10 points with upgrade.
- Spiteful conjuration is "better". D6 Strength 1 hits with armour piercing, no doubles required. Wood Elves get D3 S3 hits. Really?! Anyhow... It looks like it's a hex now, so I'm assuming we can choose our target for it? Other than the spell's target? Hmpf. Odd. Unclear rule writing.
- Doombolt, one more expensive to cast. Why? Bleh. The boosted version is more usable though.
- Chillwind -> gets a boosted version. I like it. The spell could use some help and 2d6 S3 with a BS modifier will work. That could even be seen as a decent buff.
- Soul Stealer -> Bonkers. We lost the healing ability of it at the same cast value. We had it since 6th ed. Now it's another generic damage spell but it "allows no armour save". The boosted versions gives us S3, which might actually make it capable of killing something, but the range is significantly reduced. Meh. Against anything but T3 Knights, Doombolt will be better.
- Black Horror loses the boosted version, which is no biggie, but I don't get why it had to be nerfed.

Will direct this to my gaming group, see how they feel about it.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:02 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 971
It's a hex because it can affect hex targets. If it were classified as a magic missile or direct damage, there would be times where it would not be able to affect the target of a hex.


Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:49 am
Profile
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:24 am
Posts: 296
I think the change to boosted doombolt is good, I also think the boosted chillwind is helpful too. I never liked the scatter aspect of soul stealer should I never bothered with it. I don't think I've ever remembered to check for the old doubles/triples spiteful conjuration when using dark magic :roll:

Corsairs definitely took one in the nuts with the SDC change.


Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:29 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3831
Location: Belgium, Brussels
It's certainly not all bad. The diminished version of Doombolt is actually a good change. The same goes for Black Horror. Within a max 5 dice context, it's sensible to just skip the boosted version... I don't think it was necessary, but it's not that bad.

Also note that IF doesn't make a cast succesful, regardless of the value. So it's more difficult to IF your way to out of reach casting values, which severely limits the benefit of IF... not that it would be a tactic I'd appreciate in the old edition.

Chillwind certainly became more usable. Perhaps even usable :P

Soulstealer is a strange beast. It had a workable dynamic in the 7th ed book. In the 8th edition they made it a mess and the spell usually wasn't worth the hassle:
Cast roll -> dispel roll -> template -> scatter -> determine hits -> roll to wound -> roll ward -> roll for healing -> roll wounds for spiteful conjuration .. urgh.
Way, way too much work for something as underwhelming as a S2 hit. I'm glad they had a look at that spell. But then they removed the 1 roll I think they should have kept. With Power of Darkness easily adding a wound, that Soulstealer was a fun compensation. With the power dice generation being limited as it is, power of darkness is even more of a gamble. Without Soul Stealer to help out, I predict PoD is going to drop in use considerably. Keep in mind, that at best you can generate 3 dice total, channeling included. It's quite possible you're stuck to 1-2 dice generation max, which is getting awfully cramped with channeling and other means to generate PD.

While I think it's a good thing they limited some of the excesses (nobody wants a 10-3 dice magic phase), the reaction they took seems to me like "they hated something alright". Almost seems to be written by Dwarfs :P
Note that they didn't lower the cast value of PoD, didn't improve the utility, and so by game design they pretty much nuked down another spell that was already struggling.
It's a signature spell, and with Doombolt still being good, it doesn't affect the Lore as much. But it's hardly an improvement.

The nerf to Warlocks is a welcome one. I don't recall ever using them and not feeling a little dirty. I would have kept their point cost and reduced their ward save from 4++ to 5++... But at 30 points a pop, they are still good but a bit expensive to make a bus from. Works for me.

The pegasi, well... I guess the problem they were trying to fight is the excessive spamming of them. Some lists would carry half a dozen. Considering the utility they add to our army, though, I think we may still see one or two in some lists. I can live with that, if it makes the game more balanced.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:13 am
Profile WWW
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:24 am
Posts: 296
I use PoD quite a bit, taking a wound on getting 3 dice sucks but I find it very useful to boost cold one knights when you get the spell off, str 7 on the charge with str 5 grind plus potentially getting your casting dice back while not incredible is still pretty handy.


Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:29 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:04 am
Posts: 437
Location: Sweden - without any polar bears!
I'm glad that the general tone is positive for 9th age, as we are working very hard to balance the game.
As you may have noticed, we try not to deviate too much from the 8th edition base rules, to make it easier for new players who bought the rules to swap out parts, as described in the 9th age rule set.
We are in the Alpha testing, so don't be too alarmed with nerfs, as it is currently all being playtested.
The main five working on this project are all previous champions of the ETC, and very experienced with the game. I'm just a regular joe hosting tournaments and attending a few as well. But I'm there, discussing things on the forum, and everyone has their say before something is decided.

So in conclusion, give it time. This is under construction and most, if not all, will change in a near future. The alpha rules were compiled as quickly as possible to have something to show at the ETC earlier this year.

Keep on discussing, keep on ranting, keep on praising. We/I will keep an eye on this forum as well, and take your views into considderation.

_________________
//Kheel

Nobody really cares if you’re miserable, so you might as well be happy.


Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:03 am
Profile YIM
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:24 am
Posts: 296
Wish you guys the best on this project, and helping to make the game more balanced is a win for everyone (but perhaps not their egos !lol! ). Certainly looking forward to see your updates/changes.


Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:24 pm
Profile
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 570
Location: The thin edge of the wedge
Kheel wrote:
I'm glad that the general tone is positive for 9th age, as we are working very hard to balance the game.
As you may have noticed, we try not to deviate too much from the 8th edition base rules, to make it easier for new players who bought the rules to swap out parts, as described in the 9th age rule set.
We are in the Alpha testing, so don't be too alarmed with nerfs, as it is currently all being playtested.
The main five working on this project are all previous champions of the ETC, and very experienced with the game. I'm just a regular joe hosting tournaments and attending a few as well. But I'm there, discussing things on the forum, and everyone has their say before something is decided.

So in conclusion, give it time. This is under construction and most, if not all, will change in a near future. The alpha rules were compiled as quickly as possible to have something to show at the ETC earlier this year.

Keep on discussing, keep on ranting, keep on praising. We/I will keep an eye on this forum as well, and take your views into considderation.


Bravo! I like the direction and appreciate the hard play/work going on. I am happy to give it time and promote it at my local club.

You may want to find out how many clubs have abolished 8th edition due to connection to a GW store or affliate. If clbs are not permitted to play 8th or any other version of WHFB then that could be a major bummer for your work and would require a political/comercial solution.


Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:55 am
Profile
Slave on the Altar

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:29 pm
Posts: 3
Hi everyone,

The 9th age will release the beta within short and has started a countdown in form of daily sneak peaks! You can check them out at http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/ . They have also gotten twitter going at The_9th_Age !


Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:31 pm
Profile
Miscast into the Warp
Miscast into the Warp
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:07 am
Posts: 3510
Location: Investigating Mantica
Thanks for sharing the link. It is an interesting project but I am still a little dubious on whether it will be widely adopted as the ongoing solution. However it is definitely something I will keep an eye on.

_________________
My Kings of War Plog - Forces of Nature

My Kings of War Plog - Twilight Kin / Nightstalkers


Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:08 pm
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 971
Well, it's currently the one with the most legitimacy behind it (from the Swedish Comp and ETC being behind it), so it's got as good a chance as any...


Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:09 am
Profile
Slave on the Altar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:02 am
Posts: 8
I'm a Empire player and I very happy with the nerf in demigryph Knights making them more expensive while making normal statetroops and especially GS cheaper.

At least this is not a take it or leave it, or wait 2-3 years until the next edition. This is ongoing and all these changes can be redone based on playtesting and it has a real feedback system for all players. I know 9th will not bring back most oldhammerers but at least it's something that can save the 8th edition community with several 9th tournaments planned and games already being played. :) Looking forward to sharing the 9th experience with my Dark Elf army here :D


Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:32 pm
Profile
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:20 pm
Posts: 83
Weiseth wrote:
This is ongoing and all these changes can be redone based on playtesting and it has a real feedback system for all players.


That is also the thing, that has me excited about. Finally an iterative system with regular feedback to balance things. Even though the Dark Elves seem to get hit hard by the nerfstick, I am very optimistic regarding the end result. However my group of 8th players will probably wait until at least one more iterations has been made, before swithcing from 8th to 9th.

_________________
My Blog containing battle reports and painting updates: https://bleaklegion.wordpress.com


Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:24 pm
Profile WWW
Black Guard

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:34 pm
Posts: 296
I will start playtesting 9th age as soon as the beta comes out! Really looking forward to it! Been playing swedish comp almost exclusively and now I get to take whatever I want and still now that it will be balanced (in the end at least!). It´s easy to think "oh my army got nerfed!", but then again, this is what happened to all armies, so no worries there :)


Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:54 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 54 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software