9th Age v .99 feedback

This forum is created in support of the development of http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?board/5-elves-of-darkness/

Moderator: The Dread Knights

User avatar
Giladis
Corsair
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Giladis »

Here are two good explanations from the 9th Age topic to your question toots

Nabh isn't my most favourite name either - when I asked our B&A team if it would be possible to change it the following happened:

At the start of the discussion I thought that this wouldn't be a big deal - it is only a name after all. Then I looked more closely into our new background (and really fell in love with it to be honest) and I had to recognise that the change to a gods name is no trivial thing.

We have professional linguists writing whole languages for our races (very similar to what Tolkien did) and the pantheon of gods is woven into background stories, the language, society structure, art and magic item names and many other areas.

Changing a single name would therefore ripple through the whole web of interlinked background and would cause in some parts rework.

Nabh isn't just a random name - it is a derivate of maebh / mab English speakers will recognise as a fae name with a very wide background in literature / poetry / history. If you have read the "Dresden Files" (an awesome fantasy series written by Jim Butcher) you know what I am talking about :D

I hope I could shed some light on the topic - further questions should be directed at our B&A masterminds ( @Giladis and @Pip Hamilton ) - they know what they are talking, I am only the guy writing rules :D

Philip


There is so much subjectivity in how a name is read. Even though my dialect is UK English, I read Undying Dynasties with two "die"s, but that also doesn't bother me at all. There are always going to be complaints about names. Some people complain about names in real life. I find such people petty and mean-spirited, but it does illustrate that people have opinions about all sorts of things in language, including people's names. We can't account for all of them, since they come down to nothing more than aesthetics that everyone disagrees about.

As to Nabh - the main complaint seems to be that it sounds like nob, which is only true is some dialects. Also, Orks in 40k have literally had a unit called a Nob for decades, and I never saw anyone complain about that.

If you want it to sound less like that, consult an Irish Gaelic speaker. That is the language whose phonology I used as inspiration. The bhdigraph is actually like a v in English - think of it the same way that ph is a f. The spelling is chosen deliberately to evoke the feel of Old Irish culture. I carefully chose NOT to use more awkward, but more authentic spellings, like Nadb, or Nadhbh. We could have Anglicised it, but all the names of all the cultures in the setting are written in as authentic a manner as possible, not pandering to the impulses of any language outside their own, unless the result would be utterly impenetrable. This really ins't such a case.

As I've said elsewhere, it's absolutely expected that people will pronounce the names in way we didn't intend. That's how these things always go - and so I don't really want to spend ages explaining the pronunciations, most variations of which should be within acceptable boundaries. But, if I might suggest, perhaps if you're finding a name so wrong that it annoys you, try to figure out if the pronunciation might be different than you imagined, especially if there are odd letter combinations like bh in there. Once the full fluff is out, it will be much easier to see where the inspirations for all these names lie, if you can't already.



Now to explain a little bit how world building for 9th Age setting is done.

We had existing armies with existing backgrounds people were/are attached to. These we reduced to basic themes devoid of any particular IP protected background. So DE for example became a set of words "militaristic, pirates, slavers, cultists" which defined the core of what they are. Then we the Background and Arts team went and decided upon cultural influences for each of the armies to help us build from the ground up. Cultures that have more obvious real world inspirations like Undying Dynasties (Ancient Egypt), Empire of Sonnstahl (late medieval/early modern age Holy Roman Empire) or Kingdom of Equitaine (medieval France) were easy. Mythical races such as Elves or Dwarves not so much. So we thought real carefully how to keep our elves recognisable to those familiar with background from other games while giving us enough free scope to make something our own.

The decision was made to make continental celts as the basic cultural strata for all three elven groups and started developing ancient elven language and religion prior to the creation of the three distinct groups. With these basics established the team delved into the mythology and history of our own world to find further themes that could be applied to individual armies and developed into something new. Sparta, Thebes and early Roman Republic among other things served as inspiration for the Dread Elves (though they have a different name "normal" name for themselves, but that will have to wait a bit).


If you have any other questions please ask and I will see how much I can answer within the constraints we are working on.


Cheers
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Calisson »

Thanks for this explanation! :)

I can't wait to read the fluff prepared for us.
I recently understood that we would have to wait much more than what I wished, though, with Sylvan Elves being the next army book released with fluff, and the other ones having to wait for months, probably years for some.
Meanwhile, we will have to rely on the more generic fluff contained in the rulebook, whenever this one will be released with its fluff. When is that supposed to happen? I don't know.
And between the release date of the generic rulebook's fluff and the DE rulebook with fluff, will we be able to ask for more information in order to develop our own stories? That is what I wish to be able to do, as Army Book Support.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Giladis
Corsair
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:12 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Giladis »

The rulebook written material is almost done. SE one is to go into the editing stage any day.

The B&A is always on the look out for more artists (this week we got a new one) as that part of the work is huge, so that we can produce more material in a given period of time.

I am not sure if information is going to be released between the RB and ABs, but that is to be further discussed internally as we come to terms what is the average speed for producing an AB so that we can calculate the time period needed.
User avatar
toots
Beastmaster
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:25 pm

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by toots »

lol well thanks for the response. my issue with the cult names is on the back-burner now to be honest though after my second post in this thread!! (and no, i'm not buying pip's spiel about "english speakers recognising it from a wide variety..." - never heard of it - blood n lust forevs amigo!



Giladis wrote:Here are two good explanations from the 9th Age topic to your question toots

Last edited by toots on Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clockwork
Highborn
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Clockwork »

I actually like Nabh and Yema. They have a lovecraftian feel to them, especially the latter. By comparison, Pleasure and Pain sound awfully generic and a bit flamboyant.

I think the problem is that we currently don't have any meaning attached to the words other than they are placeholders for P&P. Pretty sure this will change when the fluff comes out.
User avatar
toots
Beastmaster
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:25 pm

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by toots »

Actually I've been thinking and I'd much prefer if murderess prowess was an army-wide special rule. Executioners for instance, I'd rather have the re-rolls to wound than the Hatred and exorbitant points cost. Nabh shouldn't have to mean Hatred... can we not just keep it simple?
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Calisson »

Here is a summary I made of the community's feedback provided in V0.99 Feedback **Be Heard!!**. There were 17 fully detailed replies.
I did provide the summary below to the 9th Age team. I know it will be read, but...
I don't know to which extent the feedback will have an impact on the coming V1: the team is very cautious not to disturb the balance. If they improve somewhere, chances are that they nerf somewhere else.
In any case, we will have to wait for a couple more weeks, before we see V1 - I imagine late in April.


1) How do you feel about the core rule book changes in regards to your army?
Not much.

2) How do you feel about the common and army specific magic item changes in regards to your army?
Hero Sword becomes must-have. Rest is fine.

2a) How do you feel about the DE magic item changes in regards to your army?
Amulet of Spite: useless (x 13!)
Banner of Blood: OK-ish.
Banner of Gar Daecos: OK-ish.
Beastmaster's lash: slight overcost compared to Hero’s sword.
Dagger of Moraec: not enough bonus for the sacrifice (x8)
All other DE items: OK, very few comments.

3) How do you feel about changes to the magic paths in regards to your army?
8 general paths: no feeling.
Black Magic: Mediocre (x10). It should be more “evil” and more adapted to the DE style, i.e. MSU, agility, glass cannon.
A Soul Thirst: OK-ish.
0 Moraec's Fury: OK-ish, maybe not very cost-effective
1 Freezing Gale: OK.
2 Bladestorm: OK.
3 crippling agony: OK.
4 Mark of fear: Good.
5 Bolt of Darkness: Good.
6 Black Terror: Total crap (x10) because of the 1” template. PLEASE CHANGE!

4) Please tell us how you feel about each of these special army rules after the v0.99 update.
a) Killer Instinct: Great!
b) Master of the Dark Arts: Fine and fluffy.
c) Aura of Despair: Fluffy but in practice, useless (x9!) because it is not associated with a unit which causes Ld tests. Please, either make it apply to all Ld tests, or add “fear” to that rule. [My comment: along with cost increase]
d) Alpha Predator: Way too expensive (x14!).
e) Fleet Commander: Way too expensive (x15), especially considering you must additionally pay to make corsairs vanguard; should give ambush (x6) [my comment: perhaps if the general has this rule, one corsair unit could ambush instead of vanguard?]
f) Cults: Large regret to have lost Killer Instinct (x10). Because of that loss, the rules are way too expensive for fighter characters.
- i) Cult of Nabh: Very mixed: half accept the loss of KI, half say strongly that it makes the cult useless.
- ii) Cult of Yema: Outstanding. Everyone loves the mobility.
- iii) Cult Rivalry: OK-ish, all the restrictions are mostly understood.
- iv) Cultist General: creates too many restrictions in the army (x10)
g) Beast Master: Too expensive (x10), rules should be rewritten (x7) as they are too complex, and they should affect own mount (dragon) and raptor chariots but not altars.

5) How do you feel about each of these units after the update?
a) Dread Prince: Boring compared to SE and HE, he lacks something outstanding to give to the army (x7). With any upgrade, he is way too expensive (x11). Regret the merge with Cult High Priestess (x4).
b) Exalted Oracle: Great. Yema upgrade expensive (x6).
c) Captain: Good except Beastmaster & Fleetcommander options too expansive (x8), maybe Cults too (x3)
d) Cult Priest-ESSES: No use besides mounting an Altar (x7).
- i) Nabh: Needs Ld9 (x6) and some unit’s buff (x5) [My comment: she would be used on foot with Ld9 and if she could give frenzy or poison to her unit – people miss the old witchbrew]
- ii) Yema: needs Ld9 (x4)
e) Oracle: good.
f) Assassin: Great with the specialization!

g) Dread Legionnaires: OK.
h) Repeater Auxiliaries: OK.
i) Corsairs: TW too expensive (x13). Need some option to make them special, such as ambush (x5).
j) Dark Raiders: Shield costs too much (x10). Need to score (x6), even if they lose fast cav when taking that option. [my comment: two options could be proposed, one light non-scoring fast cav, one scoring medium cav – besides, from a modelling point of view, it seems hard to use lance, crossbow AND shield, just saying…]
k) Blades of Nabh: OK-ish.
l) Dancers of Yema: Good, love the skirmisher option.
m) Executioners: good except cost too much (13).
n) Tower Guard: good except bodyguard costing really too much (x12).
o) Raven Cloaks: Great, except (x4) somehow the present Scout rules.
p) Harpies: Good with insignificant.
q) Dread Knights: good, regret loss of fear (x4).
r) Raptor Chariot: very mixed feelings. Sturdy, sure, but slow and stupid without causing fear, so their role is hard to understand (x10). [My comment: maybe a Beastmaster could make work a pair of chariots on a flank with appropriate rules such as giving them his Ld?]
s) Hunting Chariot: Great, especially with harpoon.
t) Dread Reaper: OK even if slightly pricey.
u) Dark Acolytes: Great.
v) Medusas: Very bad. Good in CC, but useless in shooting and too fragile. Allow a unit of 1 (x6).
w) Kraken: Very bad, except as a highly specialized monster hunter, so it needs rules which will make it special compared to a hydra. And Ld 6 is awful (x8).
x) Hydra: With breath, a tad expensive (x9), Ld 6 is awful (x12).
y) Divine Altar: OK, except warplatform is missed (x9)
z) Mounts (seperatly as you can)
- Horse: very expensive for Yema (x4)
- Pegasus: too expensive (x6)
- Manticore: needs mount protection (x7), as a paying option.
- Dragon: Alfa predator too expensive (x6), and it seems not very effective.
- Altar: OK.

6) Please let us know about the overall performance of your army after the changes.
Weaker and costs more than previously, but OK as it just requires more skill.

7) What play styles have been successful and which have not been successful for you?
[Comment: few comments, no generalities] It works if fast and offensive. MSU is not easy, because of secondary objectives. Mass infantry does not work. Avoidance does not work, DE are very vulnerable to shooting.

8 ) Any other feedback concerning DE not mentioned above.
Not easy to understand what DE are supposed to be good at.


I hope that it reflects accurately the general feeling as expressed in the thread linked above.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Clockwork
Highborn
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Clockwork »

Hi Calisson,

If it's not too late, is there one additional point that you can raise to T9A team please? Dread Elves don't have any chaff units that are cheaper than 70 points (Harpies). Although I haven't checked all other lists, they seem to be a bit of an exception in this regard; the other Elves getting cheaper Eagles, and most other armies having chaff units priced at <50. There are even examples where they are <70 points in Core.

It's not a huge issue, but I would like to know if this is a deliberate design decision (Dread Elves must not have cheaper units than anyone else), or if it is something that's been overlooked. By and large, you want your chaff units to be as cheap as possible because they're going to die and you don't want them to give up much. It's a question of efficiency. However, having to pay at least 80/85 points to get a chaff unit in Core (Raiders/Corsairs), or at least 70 points outside of Core when other armies are paying almost 2/3rds of this, is a disadvantage - especially when Elf unit costs are broadly standardised otherwise.

To put this another way, two units of Harpies set the Dread Elves back 140 points - the other Elves can get almost three Eagles for that price (although there is an argument about Special vs Rare). In both cases, these units are solely going to jump in the way of something and die, except the other Elves get to spend 40 points difference elsewhere. I assume that the Harpies are paying 14ppm for 2 attacks each, but does that really help them in their role?

I'm not sure what the solution is here other than an unlikely points decrease on Harpies, and this might tie into the Medusa single model discussion, but thought that I'd highlight it nontheless.
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Calisson »

I imagine this debate to have started before I joined.
Harpies cost more, but are insignificant. That's a great advantage for this role.
For Medusae, several asked for 1+ but a cost increase of that first one was accepted.

Anyway, I will not bring a new issue now, especially from a single person, it's too late.

Next steps for us are:
- wait for V1 release
- analyze
- play for a couple of months
- gather lessons learned here in D.net
- brainstorm solutions and imagine new developments
- discuss and prioritize
- send to 9A for V2 pre-testing
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
toots
Beastmaster
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:25 pm

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by toots »

thanks for your efforts.

dread elves forevs yo!
User avatar
Lord Drakon
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1028
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:25 pm
Location: Delft

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Lord Drakon »

I am looking forward to some stability in the rules in V1 so I can print the rules and start testing the countless new options :D
Clockwork
Highborn
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Clockwork »

Calisson wrote:I imagine this debate to have started before I joined.
Harpies cost more, but are insignificant. That's a great advantage for this role.
For Medusae, several asked for 1+ but a cost increase of that first one was accepted.

Anyway, I will not bring a new issue now, especially from a single person, it's too late.


Fair enough. I’m not certain that any action needs to be taken, but thought I’d draw attention to it anyway in case it is an oversight.

I used Great Eagles as an example, as a comparison to other Elf armies is the most direct one. There are merits to both sides of the Harpies vs GE debate, but the point I was trying to make is that DE are paying 20 points more for their chaff than their Elven counterparts for no discernible reason. That being said, I’m fairly confident in saying that almost every army has cheaper chaff than Dread Elves (the exception, off the top of my head, being maybe Dwarven Holds*). If this is intentional, it would be nice to know why this is the case.

*If anyone would like to take the chaff challenege, I’d welcome the opportunity to be proved wrong!
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Calisson »

The most important balance tool used by 9th Age is not comparison. It is player's choices and results.

Externally, they made an incredible work to balance armies, taking into account results of many tourneys in many countries, in addition to their own internal testing.
As a result, all armies have been toned down - all feel weaker than they used to - but more importantly, there is no more tier one or sub-par armies.

Internally, they pay a lot of attention to player's army lists, noting if there are must-have or must-shelve units and upgrades. Then they adjust by small touches.
I wasn't there in the previous stages of the process, but that certainly explains why similar units in different armies are not similarly priced.

Make it the law of the invisible hand: if harpies are in high demand, their cost rises, like in a marketplace. If Great Eagles are not so much bought, their cost goes down.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Vulcan
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am

Re: 9th Age v .99 feedback

Post by Vulcan »

Then HE eagles should cost a mint, because I've never seen a HE list without two. Not one.
Post Reply