So about that magic

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squirrelloid
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So about that magic

Post by squirrelloid »

9th Age seems to really hate magic for some reason.
-Halved magic dice bonuses from wizard level
-Can't build for magic. You're getting 2-12 magic dice each phase no matter what. At best you can influence the +1 from channeling. And your opponent gets (likely) better than half your dice as dispel dice even if they bring only a single caster.
-Auto-fail 1s AND 2s on one dice.
-Miscasts are still painful to the point of model loss (potentially)

Despite this, level 3 wizards are crazy expensive. Why? There's barely any point to taking a wizard lord under the rules, unless you want to take a 4th caster for some reason. (2-3 level 2s feels like plenty, and will reliably eat all your magic dice).

AFAICT, the only good use of this magic system (as opposed to mostly ignoring it) involves
-Taking cheap sorcerors so you can make use of the dice you get
-Choose paths which have a good Attribute, a good low-difficulty signature, and some decent low difficulty other spells.
-Use no more than 2 dice on most rolls - your goal is to pop your attributes as often as possible.

Which means you can pretty much ignore 95% of the boosted options, and most spells 9+ or harder to cast. In fact, more than 7+ is getting borderline difficult.

Am I missing something here? Because it feels like they attached a lot of risk to spellcasting, yet most of the spells aren't sufficiently amazing to warrant the level of risk entailed. And then, random spell selection means you can't guarantee access to any of the spells where the risk is worth it.
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Calisson
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Re: So about that magic

Post by Calisson »

Compared to WH8, magic is much less powerful.
Game is designed so that a lvl4 is not mandatory.
Still, players seem to enjoy.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
squirrelloid
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Re: So about that magic

Post by squirrelloid »

Calisson wrote:Compared to WH8, magic is much less powerful.
Game is designed so that a lvl4 is not mandatory.
Still, players seem to enjoy.


It feels like they went overboard by making high level wizards prohibitively expensive for what they did. About the only reason to take a level 3+ wizard is Nature, and only because you want to get as close to a guarantee on the Throne as you can.

When the only difference between a level 2 wizard and a level 3 wizard is pretty much a wound, +1 Ld, +1 on cast rolls, and a higher magic item limit (the last of which you're paying for in points directly, so you shouldn't have to pay for that twice) - why is that costing 90 points? At 140 points I'm not sure it would be worth it. 185 is exorbitant. And that's not even level 4 yet.

A level 4 not being mandatory is fine. But a level 4 should be *competitive* with other options. 2 level 2s >> 1 level 3 wizard (in anything but nature, and only because of Oaken Throne).

Maybe the right solution is to scratch old WHFB magic mechanics entirely, and come up with something that is less random, and balances points spent better around actual performance. (Buying individual spells directly for specific point costs, for example, and maybe rethinking the entire magic phase mechanics).

-------------------

As it is, the math on miscasts is really bad with increasing numbers of dice for anyone wanting to bother with magic. (Chance of miscast|n dice: P(mc|2) = 1 in 36, P(mc|3) = 1 in 12, P(mc|4) = 1 in 6, P(mc|5) = 5 in 18).

But it gets worse. Difficulties go up to *18*. The chance of making difficulty 18 on 5 dice is <50%, which means over half of all successful casts will be miscasts. (Bonuses to the roll swing that slightly, but it still stays disturbingly near 50% chance of miscast on a successful cast because the bonuses are so small). And because miscasts are worse on more dice, the consequences become increasingly dire as you throw more dice. Which pretty much means that the truly high powered spells feature a coin toss to cast, and will likely kill or horribly maim your caster when they happen (assuming your opponent doesn't just scroll them away).

At which point, the extra +1 to cast is inconsequential next to the risk taken by the caster - far better to risk a lowly level 1-2 wizard, because the difference in wizard level is inconsequential to both casting such spells and generating the dice to do so with. And that's pretty much true at all lower difficulties too.

Given the randomness of magic dice, the risks of casting, and the vulnerability to dispel dice and scrolls, it's not clear to me why high level casters cost 2-3x as much as artillery. Would anyone play with cannons if they cost 200+ points, gave your opponent a die every other shot that blocked the shot if it rolled more than the to-hit roll plus the option of magical items that could be burned to make them auto-fail, and had about a 50% chance of dying or becoming useless half the time it hit? (And that's the situation wizards are in on a *good* magic dice roll where the opponent only gets half as many dispel dice).
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Re: So about that magic

Post by Vulcan »

I STILL think the way to do it is to go back to the old way. Double six is irresistible force with no miscast... but double ones miscasts, prevents the spell from going off, AND overrides irresistible force. Do that and a LOT of the problems with even 8E magic rules goes away.
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Re: So about that magic

Post by Calisson »

Haven't played myself but saw on T9A website a DE list with lvl4 Fire achieved 2nd on a major tournament.
Must be for some reason.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
squirrelloid
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Re: So about that magic

Post by squirrelloid »

Calisson wrote:Haven't played myself but saw on T9A website a DE list with lvl4 Fire achieved 2nd on a major tournament.
Must be for some reason.


Well, fire makes sense, it has 2 remains in play spells that your opponent will want to throw dispel dice at, which will give you more effective magic phases. Not sure why a level 4 rather than 2 level 2s though, seems suboptimal. But then, the random nature of magic is sufficiently swingy that the differences between the two set ups may not matter if you're sufficiently lucky. The risk is the problem, but its up to chance whether it leaves you unscathed or utterly ruins you.

Vulcan wrote:I STILL think the way to do it is to go back to the old way. Double six is irresistible force with no miscast... but double ones miscasts, prevents the spell from going off, AND overrides irresistible force. Do that and a LOT of the problems with even 8E magic rules goes away.


That still maintains the hugely random nature of magic. Magic cannot be balanced unless it is *less* random and less risky.

I'd do away with random spells. Severely reduce the cost of spellcasters. Put appropriate point costs on individual spells and let players buy the spells they want (one per caster level), and get rid of miscasts entirely. It's a difficulty check on up to 5 dice, either you succeed or you don't, and then your opponent can throw dispel dice at it. That has both counterplay and obvious balance points. Some spells may need to be tweaked as well. And something needs to scale with caster level such that level 4 is worth investing in over 2 level 2s generally. (As two levels 2s have advantages insofar as it lets you potentially choose different paths, and put them in different places, and spreads out the risk of dying from enemy action, known spells still favors 2 level 2s for everything but Nature, because there's no advantage otherwise to having them all on one model).
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Calisson
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Re: So about that magic

Post by Calisson »

Remember, T9A goal is that lvl4, like every other unit, should be useful but not must have.
I would love what you describe, but then I would take a lvl 4 100%.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Re: So about that magic

Post by Vulcan »

IF it's priced appropriately his method should work just fine, as it doesn't negate the advantages of two L2s, it just gives you a reason to take an L4 instead.
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