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8th Edition 1000 points vs High Elves (Some large pictures) 
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Warrior
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Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:45 am
Posts: 65
Hi all, the big day arrived and I was thoroughly beaten by 250 victory points :( The list I used was:

Heroes:
Master:
Sea Dragon Cloak
Heavy armour
Enchanted Shield
Dawnstone
Sword of Might
130

Core:
20 Corsairs:
FC
AHW
250

5 Dark Riders
Musician
Shields
95

Special:
5 shades
80

Hydra
Fiery Breath
180

Reaper Bolt Thrower
70

Reaper Bolt Thrower
70

Rare:
5 Warlocks
125

Total:
1 000

Both of us deployed badly:
Image

(My units on the bottom of the image:
Proxies: Skaven Hellpit = Hydra
CoK = Warlocks
Elyrian Reavers = Dark Riders
Darkshards = shades
Prince on Griffon = Fire Phoenix
I need more models :(

Terrain: The matchbox and white bowl were both impassable rocky outcrops. The book was a hill. (I'll get round to making some nicer stuff one day)

Deployment photo doesn't show my vanguard movements. I moved the Dark riders a bit forward and the warlocks too.

His mage took Fireball and Flaming Sword and was bunkered in a unit of 14 archers

Turn 1:
HE start and charge dark riders with phoenix
Upgraded fireball from his lvl 2 mage hits dark rider unit with IF: dealing 4 wounds (some nasty rolling on my behalf)
He rolls a nice miscast so he only loses some dice and the single wound it inflicts is blocked my his Golden Crown of ...? discounts the first wound inflicted.
Last warlock killed by shooting.
All dark riders dead in combat without inflicting a single wound on that damn Phoenix
All in all - nothing good comes out of that turn.

DE:
Move the hydra and corsairs forward trying to get into combat, I was sacrificing my now-collapsed left flank to the phoenix
With plans of revenge, I fired one str 6 bolt thrower shot at the phoenix dealing no wounds (all 3 wounds saved on a 5+ ward)
2nd bolt thrower deals two wounds on archers using the volley fire
Shades kill 1 Swordmaster
Basically, a disaster

Turn 2:
Flaming sword on the other 5 man SM unit which charges into the hydra
He shoots, kills 6 corsairs
Hydra squashes the SM in combat (breath weapon inflicting a might two hits) but takes 4 wounds in the process. I managed to roll an 11 inch overrun which put me a mere 5 inches from his smaller 10 man archer unit.
Finally something good happened!

DE:
Charge the hydra into the archers
Charge the corsairs into the front of the PG which have moved just behind the large rocky spire (most of the game was played on the right side of the board)
Shooting yields essentially no wounds and I have no magic phase without any warlocks or sorceress.
The hydra obliterates the archer unit and combat reforms to face the other 14 man archer unit + mage
I challenge the PG champion with my Master - thinking that it stops other combat from taking place, turns out I was wrong.
Neither the champ nor the master inflict any wounds
5 dead corsairs and 1 dead PG. Corsairs hold
Hydra recovers 3 wounds, found no contraindications for the regen and fire in the army book. (Was it allowed to regen?)

Turn 3:
He forgets to charge my left bolt thrower with his eagle
His shooting does no damage, but his magic drops the shades to 2 men. I dispell flaming sword on the PG
PG champ dies to my master, 1 other one dies. 6 dead corsairs
They flee and manage to avoid being overrun

DE:
Hydra charges the archers and mage
Fail to rally and the corsairs run 7 inches forward


The rest:
PG catch the corsairs and master
Phoenix kills 1st bolty
Both PG and Phoenix charge and kill the second bolty
Hydra obliterates 2nd archer unit and kills mage, but runs off the board

I only have 2 shades and the hydra left at the end
He has the phoenix and PG
My hydra was too far away to do anything useful

In conclusion:
I was dumb to vanguard my cavalry into phoenix and magic range, especially on such a small board. The shades and boltys were largely useless. The hydra was an absolute beast, Killing around 500 enemy points on its own and regenerating ceaselessly. I think that I ought to invest in a sorceress, rather than a master as a general. I need to figure out a suitable means of deploying her: either on a pegasus or a bunker of darkshards.

Thoughts? :D
Although we're largely going to be playing 1500 point games from now on

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Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:19 am
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Corsair
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8584
Location: Hag Graef
Sorc on peggy is great! Do not hesitate.

For your terrain, there are ways to create some for little money, using whatever small items (and plastic scrap) could be found at home.
See Ideas for all the 8th ed terrains

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Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:42 pm
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Generalissimo
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Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3678
Location: Baltimore
Yeah, that was probably always the way that battle was going to go. High Elves can be brutal against dark elves when they have a combined shooting and melee army. They bleed you to death from afar with archers and magic and then have a nasty kick with their melee elites when you get into combat. Hydras are also very good against them because T5 and S5 (while usually decent but not brilliant) are brutal against high elves with their S3 attacks, T3 toughness, and 5+ or above infantry saves.

Some things I have found over time that work well against High Elves (most of my recommendations are based upon 2-3k as that's always been more my range, but can be scaled down to 1k I imagine) include:

- Chariots are very nice. If you can keep them near the BSB, that's a bonus, but they possess many of the advantages of the hydra for a bit cheaper and those impact hits are tasty.
- Cold One Knights can also work well, but be a bit wary because you can easily roll a few too many 1s or get hammered by lore of metal. Still, a unit of 6 or 7 at 2-3k can be a real threat without causing too much of a risk for you cost wise.
- Magic is key to this matchup. If the High Elves can dominate the magic phase, they can mop the floor with you. Lore of fire will torch your forces, lore of life (the nasty lore of all) will make his forces basically invincible (and dwellers below will make you want to rage quit), and the others will hurt too. The same applies for you - if you can dominate the magic phase, you can make your own troops very tough or decimate his. If you take away one thing from my list of suggestions, it should be this: Take a big and powerful mage against high elves, and make sure they have a dispel scroll! If you can only fit one character into your list, it should be a mage without question.
- Fast troops are good, but you either need them to be heavily protected (e.g. master on a dark pegasus with powerful armor and defensive magic items) or to have lots of small groups so that you can afford to lose one or two units without losing your speed capacity.
- Don't bother with your own shooting. He will outrange you and outshoot you. Instead, focus on close combat troops (mounted and unmounted) and get them into combat with him asap (obviously picking sensible fights and avoiding traps)
- Hydras and K-beasts are both good choices - but avoid being viewed as a colossal cheesemonger by taking too many.

Regarding terrain: Books are always quick and easy hills that you can put troops onto. Polystyrene can be a quick and easy craftable. And if you want relatively decently priced pre-painted terrain, lots of pet stores have scenery for fish acquariums that work nicely.

Finally: nice feet.

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Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:09 am
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Warrior
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Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:45 am
Posts: 65
Thanks for all the advice and apologies about the feet

I played a second game against him at 1500 points and lost again.

I started off dominating with a level 3 life mage in a bunker of darkshards which actually proved to be pretty effective at shooting his archers. (My board hasn't really got sufficient width for him to outrange the crossbows effectively). I ran two hydras which did a lot of damage, but weren't enough to win combat on their own. I did quite an ambitious charge with one hydra which was actually successful in denying him the charge with his Dragon Princes. Unfortunately, I couldn't get my executioner unit into combat (even with a banner of swiftness) until it was too late. (He hit them with dwellers and they lost 9 out of 24 and kited with the phoenix).

Things were going pretty well for me until he flying charged over my exec unit with the phoenix and killed my sorceress. (I didn't realise that he could do that). Naturally he annihilated them and broke the darkshard unit. From then he had a relatively simple mop up operation.

Lessons I learned:
Hydras need a BSB because of their low leadership
I need to use the sorceress on a pegasus
I need to get the executioners into combat and try to deny the dragon princes the charge

Life was pretty useful with flesh to stone, especially when backed up by some damage from the warlocks

List I used:

1500 point list:

Lords:
Supreme Sorceress (life):
Cloak of Twilight
Dispell Scroll
260

Core:

16 Darkshards
Standard Bearer
Lichebone pennant
273

5 Dark Riders
Shields
Musician
95

5 Dark Riders
Shields
Musician
95

Special:

War Hydra
160

War Hydra
160

24 Executioners
FC
Banner of Swiftness
333

Rare:

5 Warlocks
125

Total: 1501

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Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:32 am
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Warrior
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Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:45 am
Posts: 65
Calisson wrote:
Sorc on peggy is great! Do not hesitate.

For your terrain, there are ways to create some for little money, using whatever small items (and plastic scrap) could be found at home.
See Ideas for all the 8th ed terrains


This is a very useful thread, thank you!

Calisson wrote:
Sorc on peggy is great! Do not hesitate.


Should I just give her a cloak of twilight and a dispell scroll and run her about to wherever she looks needed?

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Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:37 am
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Highborn
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:23 am
Posts: 685
Location: Ammerzoden, metropole at the Maas
Quote:
Turn 1:
HE start and charge dark riders with phoenix
Upgraded fireball from his lvl 2 mage hits dark rider unit with IF: dealing 4 wounds (some nasty rolling on my behalf)
He rolls a nice miscast so he only loses some dice and the single wound it inflicts is blocked my his Golden Crown of ...? discounts the first wound inflicted.
Last warlock killed by shooting.
All dark riders dead in combat without inflicting a single wound on that damn Phoenix
All in all - nothing good comes out of that turn.


I dont think the player going first is allowed to charge in turn 1! Pesky
High elf player

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Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:34 pm
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Warrior
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Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:45 am
Posts: 65
Quote:
I dont think the player going first is allowed to charge in turn 1! Pesky
High elf player


I'll have to check that out. If so that's good to know

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Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:16 pm
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Generalissimo
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Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3678
Location: Baltimore
IIRC, they can't charge after doing a vanguard move or scout deploy, but they can charge if they didn't either of those things. I could be wrong on that though.

It's not so much that you need a BSB near the hydras as you shouldn't be doing unsupported frontal charges with them. They should either be picking on weak troops like a squad of 10 archers or doing combi-charges into bigger enemy units with other units of your own (e.g. a unit of bleakswords and the hydra charging together).

Dwellers below is a nasty spell and quite broken against dark elves really. But you can combat it. First, if he has it then always be aware that he could cast it and keep your dispel dice held back ready during his earlier spells. If he gets say 10 dice while you have 6 dice and he uses 5 of those dice to cast a different spell first, hold onto your 6 dice to make sure that you can dispel dwellers because he is almost certainly going for that next. Second, always hold onto a dispel scroll until he uses it against a pivotal unit, don't waste it on minor spells or to protect chaff units.

I really don't like any of the High Elf phoenixes - they always seemed overly powerful for their points, not so much because of their impact but because of how they could do it with such low risks to themselves. But they were only a recent addition when I stopped playing, so perhaps others can advise on how best to take care of them.

Finally, don't use two hydras, it's way too much cheese, especially at 1.5k points.

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Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:10 pm
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Warrior
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Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:45 am
Posts: 65
I dug around the rulebook and found that his charge was legal. Units that have made a vanguard move aren't allowed to charge.

It definitely needed some support, I guess that I was just overly-focused on denying the dragon princes' charge. Ultimately, I need to improve my movement phase to prevent the magic and shooting from going on unopposed for too long. I've played a couple more games and I've been steadily improving, although I've yet to actually beat him. It's good fun though

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Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:53 am
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