Hey guys!
Check this out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKdAkYQsAXY
I was the Dark elf player and the winds of magic betrayed me!
My list was:
Lvl 4 - Black Dragon Egg, Sac Dagger, Shadow Magic
Lvl 2 - Tome of Furion, Dark Magic
Master - HA, Sh, SDC, Dragon Helm, PoK, Biting Blade, Dark Steed
Death Hag - CoB, BsB
25 Spears - Sh, FC, Standard of Discipline
20 Crossbows - Mus, champ
21 Corsairs - AHW, Frenzy Banner
10 Corsairs - Handbows
5 Dark Riders - Corssbows
Assassin - AHW, Rending Stars, Manbane
20 Blackguard - FC, Crimson Death, Banner of Murder
5 Shades
Hydra
Any comments on my list and/or tactic would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks
~Ransom
Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
Moderator: The Dread Knights
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Ransom
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Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
Last edited by Ransom on Sun May 19, 2013 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
Crossbows are fine, although I don't think the other main core are large enough.
Did you come prepared for anti armor? Because Brettonia have 2 core units with a 2+ armor save, a special that's 2+ against range attacks and 3+ against close combat, and a rare unit that is 2+, and all of which hit hard in the charge.
Executioners or your own knights would have helped out, and getting the charge in first would also help. Against cavalry, getting the charge in first is a nessessity to beguine with as it denoes most the strength bonuse for spears or lances, but in Brettonia's case they also get to fight in more ranks (at least the 2 guys on the side do) so it denies them attacks as well.
What lore was your second sorceress using? Shadow again? While shadow is great, teaming it up with Lore of Metal or Dark magic with the Lv2 would have been great as several spells in both lores ignore armor.
Did you come prepared for anti armor? Because Brettonia have 2 core units with a 2+ armor save, a special that's 2+ against range attacks and 3+ against close combat, and a rare unit that is 2+, and all of which hit hard in the charge.
Executioners or your own knights would have helped out, and getting the charge in first would also help. Against cavalry, getting the charge in first is a nessessity to beguine with as it denoes most the strength bonuse for spears or lances, but in Brettonia's case they also get to fight in more ranks (at least the 2 guys on the side do) so it denies them attacks as well.
What lore was your second sorceress using? Shadow again? While shadow is great, teaming it up with Lore of Metal or Dark magic with the Lv2 would have been great as several spells in both lores ignore armor.
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
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Ransom
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Re: Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
This was an all comers list as I wasn't sure whether I was fighting Orcs, High Elves, or Brets.
My anti armour was Mind Razor which I lost turn two due to losing two wizard levels.
Yeah the second sorceress was Dark magic .
My anti armour was Mind Razor which I lost turn two due to losing two wizard levels.
Yeah the second sorceress was Dark magic .
Re: Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
I'd say take a core unit out and make some of the existing ones bigger. Crossbowmen are good, and dark riders as is or with a couple more can be good as chaff (distracting throwaways) to bait frenzied units, harrass others, and take on warmachiens. I'd say take out the corsairs or the spearmen and make the one you keep bigger so you still get yoour 625 points of core in.
As you are running a couldron, a unit of Khainites such as 25-30 executioners with full command, and the Banner of Murder can take on heavily armored foes, or a horde of witch elves for those with less armor and tougher hides (either way, high strength attacks vs lots of poison attacks). I don't run witches, adn my 25 executioners are still in the planning phase, so take this part with a grain of salt.
A large unit of knights (10 or more) command and Banner of hag greif is fun, but I'm going to experiment with the rangers banner (a bunch of knights running through a forest with no problems, who would have thought?). That said ten knights is about 270 points without upgrades, so if you take em make sure they are a big part of the army.
Hydras are good, but do really good when paired up with another unit, such as a chariot (fun times against rat ogres, hee hee) or as been going around on the site, Knights as both units can take on the front or one can get the front and the other negate ranks. Their main weakness is the fact the DE book rules for monster and handler means that anyone that can target the handlers might as well do so as that means it hit the hydras. Stone thrower or cannon ball overshoots the hydra but hits a handler? Don't worry dwarf player, you still hit the hydra! Oh, that bolt thrower is out of range of the hydra, but just in range of a handler Mr. High elf player? Don't worry, you get the hydra (as much as this guy still pays for himself, he also dies real easy with this self damning piece of cheese and a well placed flaming cannonball).
Shades I do have fun with, and love em. I find adding an assassin with rending blades and manbane hit and miss (great for monsters and warmachines ,but still only wounding half the time) but they are wonderful for taking out warmachines in the back or harassing shooting units. Actually did a game a month ago where I took out a pair of trebuchets with these guys.
As you are running a couldron, a unit of Khainites such as 25-30 executioners with full command, and the Banner of Murder can take on heavily armored foes, or a horde of witch elves for those with less armor and tougher hides (either way, high strength attacks vs lots of poison attacks). I don't run witches, adn my 25 executioners are still in the planning phase, so take this part with a grain of salt.
A large unit of knights (10 or more) command and Banner of hag greif is fun, but I'm going to experiment with the rangers banner (a bunch of knights running through a forest with no problems, who would have thought?). That said ten knights is about 270 points without upgrades, so if you take em make sure they are a big part of the army.
Hydras are good, but do really good when paired up with another unit, such as a chariot (fun times against rat ogres, hee hee) or as been going around on the site, Knights as both units can take on the front or one can get the front and the other negate ranks. Their main weakness is the fact the DE book rules for monster and handler means that anyone that can target the handlers might as well do so as that means it hit the hydras. Stone thrower or cannon ball overshoots the hydra but hits a handler? Don't worry dwarf player, you still hit the hydra! Oh, that bolt thrower is out of range of the hydra, but just in range of a handler Mr. High elf player? Don't worry, you get the hydra (as much as this guy still pays for himself, he also dies real easy with this self damning piece of cheese and a well placed flaming cannonball).
Shades I do have fun with, and love em. I find adding an assassin with rending blades and manbane hit and miss (great for monsters and warmachines ,but still only wounding half the time) but they are wonderful for taking out warmachines in the back or harassing shooting units. Actually did a game a month ago where I took out a pair of trebuchets with these guys.
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra
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Drek
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Re: Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
25 spear guys isn't enough to keep steadfast, especially with the dagger.
Miscasting sucks. Ow.
The weakness of the Bret lance is the long flanks. I didn't see you take advantage of that much. Your lack of redirectors hurt. 2 units of 5 harpies could have been useful. It's tough when Bret's take first turn, but harpies would have been handy. The hydra would have been way more useful behind a building. I'm not sure why you put your spears behind your main line, but they missed out on some of the fighting and would have been handy. Your character vs his character is a fair matchup, but fair match ups are how dark elves lose. We win by using the movement phase to get unfair match ups. That combat is one I would have avoided in favor of tarpitting one of his lances.
Miscasting sucks. Ow.
The weakness of the Bret lance is the long flanks. I didn't see you take advantage of that much. Your lack of redirectors hurt. 2 units of 5 harpies could have been useful. It's tough when Bret's take first turn, but harpies would have been handy. The hydra would have been way more useful behind a building. I'm not sure why you put your spears behind your main line, but they missed out on some of the fighting and would have been handy. Your character vs his character is a fair matchup, but fair match ups are how dark elves lose. We win by using the movement phase to get unfair match ups. That combat is one I would have avoided in favor of tarpitting one of his lances.
Re: Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
Redirectors and flank charging units. Execs love to eat knights. Just make them big enough to take some casualties and be able to hit back. Cauldron blessing of +1 attack does miracles combined with your small base size compared to his.
Also, CoK love to eat brets with a cauldron nearby. Consider taking them with a hydra banner BSB for max attacks. You can even run them stupid wide to max the attack from hydra banner and cauldron since the brets flanks are huge. You'll win every combat you charge into and he will need insane courage to stick around. Do the math, and it will start to sound quite lovely.
Also, CoK love to eat brets with a cauldron nearby. Consider taking them with a hydra banner BSB for max attacks. You can even run them stupid wide to max the attack from hydra banner and cauldron since the brets flanks are huge. You'll win every combat you charge into and he will need insane courage to stick around. Do the math, and it will start to sound quite lovely.
"With hate, all things are possible." - Malus Darkblade
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Daeron
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Re: Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
Hm. You have some good stuff, and a lot of mediocre stuff in that list.
You invested in all 3 ranked core units. IMO this means they either need to be tooled up, or you need a lot of support. In general,there's spears, corsairs and RXBs and you pick 2, filling the rest of the point requirements with DRs or throw away units.
In the current meta, I would recommend taking 2 characters on a pegasus at least. If you want a solo lord character, my favorite Sorceress built would be:
- Sorc, Level 4, Dark Peg, PoK, Dispel Scroll, Black Dragon Egg (the egg makes her a good backup chaff hunter). Alternatively, the lifetaker would be a good item as well.
Because your level 4 can fly, she won't be needing a bunker. This is a good setup if you're not taking spears.
A more potent built that's been around the scene lately is:
- Dreadlord, Dark Pegasus, heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, shield, pendant of kaeleth, giant blade(+3 Strength).. optionally the potion of foolhardiness.
It just about fits in with a supreme sorceress. This little bugger will cut through most monsters and armor, so it's a versatile killer. In this fight, you could have placed him in the black guard unit and watch him slay 2-3 (and sometimes 4) models a turn. Combined with the BGs you would have slain 7-9 knights in a single round of combat.
In terms of playstyle, it looks like you didn't get a lot out of your magic. There isn't much detail on how the magic phases went, but it felt like you didn't manage a good use of the sac dagger. What strategy did you use?
From the vid it seems you didn't use the hydra's breath weapon in time. That's a really bad move. It needs the S5 to make it count. The low initiative of the Hydra makes a always a bit of a risk to use it in CC and not before you get into CC. If you must, a MIASMA could have helped there. It could have destroyed the unit and freed the Hydra to charge or move in your own turn.
You had a 10 model Corsair unit but to me it seems like you could have gotten more out of that unit. It could have redirected the enemy...
Alternatively you could have place the unit in front of the Black Guards. He would have had an easier time charging it, and overrunning into the black guards... but that would have given you a chance to use magic and strike back with it before he even put a dent in them. Enfeebling foe, the flank charge of the killing blow corsairs, withering, mind razor.. you name it.
Heck, you could have given those 10 "soon to die" Corsairs killing blow with the CoB, to take a few knights with them before they break and flee. In the next turn, your own, you could give the buff again to the other Corsair unit or the BGs.
This type of combinations is really deadly. I used it against a friend last week: his ASF COKs charged my DRs playing the speed bump before my BGs. They kill them and overrun into the BGs. In my turn I use enfeebling on him and watch his charge yield little kills. In return my BGs wipe his unit.
Either way, there's a lot of tweaks and tricks to learn from this match. I hope you enjoyed the game!
You invested in all 3 ranked core units. IMO this means they either need to be tooled up, or you need a lot of support. In general,there's spears, corsairs and RXBs and you pick 2, filling the rest of the point requirements with DRs or throw away units.
In the current meta, I would recommend taking 2 characters on a pegasus at least. If you want a solo lord character, my favorite Sorceress built would be:
- Sorc, Level 4, Dark Peg, PoK, Dispel Scroll, Black Dragon Egg (the egg makes her a good backup chaff hunter). Alternatively, the lifetaker would be a good item as well.
Because your level 4 can fly, she won't be needing a bunker. This is a good setup if you're not taking spears.
A more potent built that's been around the scene lately is:
- Dreadlord, Dark Pegasus, heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, shield, pendant of kaeleth, giant blade(+3 Strength).. optionally the potion of foolhardiness.
It just about fits in with a supreme sorceress. This little bugger will cut through most monsters and armor, so it's a versatile killer. In this fight, you could have placed him in the black guard unit and watch him slay 2-3 (and sometimes 4) models a turn. Combined with the BGs you would have slain 7-9 knights in a single round of combat.
In terms of playstyle, it looks like you didn't get a lot out of your magic. There isn't much detail on how the magic phases went, but it felt like you didn't manage a good use of the sac dagger. What strategy did you use?
From the vid it seems you didn't use the hydra's breath weapon in time. That's a really bad move. It needs the S5 to make it count. The low initiative of the Hydra makes a always a bit of a risk to use it in CC and not before you get into CC. If you must, a MIASMA could have helped there. It could have destroyed the unit and freed the Hydra to charge or move in your own turn.
You had a 10 model Corsair unit but to me it seems like you could have gotten more out of that unit. It could have redirected the enemy...
Alternatively you could have place the unit in front of the Black Guards. He would have had an easier time charging it, and overrunning into the black guards... but that would have given you a chance to use magic and strike back with it before he even put a dent in them. Enfeebling foe, the flank charge of the killing blow corsairs, withering, mind razor.. you name it.
Heck, you could have given those 10 "soon to die" Corsairs killing blow with the CoB, to take a few knights with them before they break and flee. In the next turn, your own, you could give the buff again to the other Corsair unit or the BGs.
This type of combinations is really deadly. I used it against a friend last week: his ASF COKs charged my DRs playing the speed bump before my BGs. They kill them and overrun into the BGs. In my turn I use enfeebling on him and watch his charge yield little kills. In return my BGs wipe his unit.
Either way, there's a lot of tweaks and tricks to learn from this match. I hope you enjoyed the game!
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.
Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.
"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze
Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.
"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze
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Daeron
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Re: Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
I took the liberty of trying to change your list a bit, based on the recommendations I made. Just to give an idea what the end result would look like. I try to respect your original list as much as possible.
With a dreadful dreadlord:
- Dreadlord, full armor, dark peg, PoK, Giant Blade
- Supreme Sorceress, Level 4, Sac Dagger
- Cauldron of Blood, BSB
- Sorceress, level 2, Tome of Furion
- 22 RXBs, Shields, Banner, Musician
- 40 Warriors, Full Command, Std of Discipline
- 5 DRs, RxBs, Mus
- 5 Harpies
- 5 Harpies
- 20 BGs, Banner, Musician, Banner of Murder
- 9 Shades, additional handweapon
- Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane
- Hydra
With a flying sorceress:
- Supreme Sorceress, Pegasus, Pendant of Kaeleth, Black Dragon Egg, Dispel Scroll
- Master on Peg, Heavy Armor, Shield, Cloak of Hag Graef, Whip of Agony
- Sorceress, Level 2, Tome of Furion
- Cauldron of Blood
- 30 Corsairs, FC, SSS
- 5 DRs, RXBs, Mus
- 16 RXBs, Mus
- 5 Harpies
- 5 Harpies
- 20 BGs, Banner, Musician, Banner of Murder
- 9 Shades, additional handweapon
- Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane
- Hydra
Or a slightly different configuration
- Supreme Sorceress, Pegasus, Pendant of Kaeleth, Dispel Scroll
- Master on Peg, Heavy Armor, Shield, Cloak of Hag Graef, Whip of Agony, BSB
- Sorceress, Level 2, Tome of Furion
- 30 Corsairs, FC, SSS
- 5 DRs, RXBs, Mus
- 16 RXBs, Mus
- 5 Harpies
- 5 Harpies
- 20 BGs, Banner, Musician, Banner of Murder
- 7 Shades, additional handweapon
- 7 Shades, additional handweapon
- Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane
- Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane
- Hydra
Each list should have superior mobility, ranged firepower and redirectors without losing magic or offense.
With a dreadful dreadlord:
- Dreadlord, full armor, dark peg, PoK, Giant Blade
- Supreme Sorceress, Level 4, Sac Dagger
- Cauldron of Blood, BSB
- Sorceress, level 2, Tome of Furion
- 22 RXBs, Shields, Banner, Musician
- 40 Warriors, Full Command, Std of Discipline
- 5 DRs, RxBs, Mus
- 5 Harpies
- 5 Harpies
- 20 BGs, Banner, Musician, Banner of Murder
- 9 Shades, additional handweapon
- Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane
- Hydra
With a flying sorceress:
- Supreme Sorceress, Pegasus, Pendant of Kaeleth, Black Dragon Egg, Dispel Scroll
- Master on Peg, Heavy Armor, Shield, Cloak of Hag Graef, Whip of Agony
- Sorceress, Level 2, Tome of Furion
- Cauldron of Blood
- 30 Corsairs, FC, SSS
- 5 DRs, RXBs, Mus
- 16 RXBs, Mus
- 5 Harpies
- 5 Harpies
- 20 BGs, Banner, Musician, Banner of Murder
- 9 Shades, additional handweapon
- Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane
- Hydra
Or a slightly different configuration
- Supreme Sorceress, Pegasus, Pendant of Kaeleth, Dispel Scroll
- Master on Peg, Heavy Armor, Shield, Cloak of Hag Graef, Whip of Agony, BSB
- Sorceress, Level 2, Tome of Furion
- 30 Corsairs, FC, SSS
- 5 DRs, RXBs, Mus
- 16 RXBs, Mus
- 5 Harpies
- 5 Harpies
- 20 BGs, Banner, Musician, Banner of Murder
- 7 Shades, additional handweapon
- 7 Shades, additional handweapon
- Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane
- Assassin, Rending Stars, Manbane
- Hydra
Each list should have superior mobility, ranged firepower and redirectors without losing magic or offense.
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.
Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.
"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze
Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.
"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze
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Ransom
- Trainee Warrior
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- Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Re: Dark Elves V. Bretonnians 2500 pts! (youtube)
Thanks Daeron,
My magic phases were abysmal. Turn two I irresistible forced something and ended up losing two wizard levels on the lvl 4 and losing mindrazor.
Twice he double 6'd on two dice to dispel my spells.
It was my first game in 8th and first in a very long time, thanks for all the advice and I'll be sure to try out some of the builds you suggested!
My magic phases were abysmal. Turn two I irresistible forced something and ended up losing two wizard levels on the lvl 4 and losing mindrazor.
Twice he double 6'd on two dice to dispel my spells.
It was my first game in 8th and first in a very long time, thanks for all the advice and I'll be sure to try out some of the builds you suggested!