HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I attended a 3 day, 8 games tournament some time ago and in my game 4 I played against DE so I decided to post the report here too! If you are interested in other games here is the link to the topic with all of them:

HE MSU at CanCon 2015

Game 4 - Battle Line - Alex - Dark Elves

First game day 2 and I had a pleasure to play against Alex and his Dark Elves. I am always happy to play against Druchii as it is a guarantee of an interesting game no matter what. There is something that makes HE vs DE battles unique. I am afraid that we migth lose it with joined Elven armies but let's not worry about something that is not there yet.

Alex brought the following list:

Dark Elves - Army List

Morathi - 375 Yay! :)
Assassin, Additional hand weapon, The Other Tricksters Shard, Talisman of Endurance, Dark Venom - 157
Sorceress, level 1, Sivejirs Hex Scroll - 130 - Lore of Metal
Death Hag, BSB, Cry of War - 125

28 Corsairs, Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command - 338
18 Dark Shards, Full Command, Shields - 264
23 Dreadspears, Full Command - 237
23 Dreadspears, Full Command - 237

7 Harpies - 105
Cold One Chariot - 115

2 x Bolt Thrower - 140
Bloodwrack Shrine - 175

Swedish Comp: 15.5

So not the typical shooty avoidance DE with mandatory Pegasus riders :) But it had a lot of great tools against my army so I was excited to see if I can put up a decent fight. Let's have a look at this army with more details:

Morathi - I have never played against DE with Morathi but I knew she is very dangerous. First of all she has some flexibility in choosing her spells. That is a great thing as you can try and pick the spells needed for particular game. She is very well protected against spells herself with 4++ and MR(2). But any type of shooting will be tough to deal with for her as with only 3W and 4++ she might get hunted down quickly. Fortunately, she is flying so she can use cover well and be where she is needed the most. D3 (or D3+1 for Dark Magic) to each spell casting attempt means she can actually cast more spells than your typical level 4 and that means trouble for the opponent! I guess the best way to deal with her is to try and shoot her down if there is a chance and use my own characters to prevent her from landing in some spots where she can be even more dangerous.

Assassin - now that is great addition! He is definitely a character killer with the Shard, 4 Attacks that benefit from re-rolls to hit and re-rolls of 1's to wound as well as very important Killing Blow! I am sure he would immediately go after my characters as soon as there is a chance and it would be very risky indeed to face this superb killer. It will also be important to guess which units he might be hiding in!

Sorceress - Morathi's maid was there to add a little bit to the great choice of spells, provide channeling attempt and ... she also carries Toad Scroll! Now that can be very interesting for my poor level 2 Larry the Loremaster :D

Death Hag - on BSB duty, another vicious killer, at least when facing my fragile army. Her Cry of War can be quite interesting. My troops would need to take Ld5 or Ld6 fear check and that means I may often be WS1 in order to hit that fragile character. I guess it is a little risky but then, with addition of Assassin, she might be well protected anyway. However, having an opportunity I might direct as many attacks as possible and try to get her down anyway.

Corsairs - the biggest regiment of DE army, they can tear my Swordmasters and Lions in no time simply because they have so many attacks to throw at me. They will probably contain some if not all the characters apart from Morathi. Being so big means, however, they will be more easy to divert and slowed down if needed. Flank attacks are a must against them although mounted characters and heavy cavalry can risk frontal assault as S3 is not that of a threat to them.

Dark Shards - one of the priorities for my army. They are very efficient against my troops, heavy cavalry included because of AP and sheer volume of fire power. The good thing is there is only one unit there so they cannot shoot at many targets. I would like to employ my own shooting as I have longer range and number superiority.

Darkspears - they are actually very good against my army. They can go one on one against Swordmasters and Lions and kill them. They will prevail against Archers as they have better armor and hatred gives them advantage. They can hold the charge from heavy cavalry. Depending how Alex is going to distribute his characters these guys can be tough to fight against and that makes it hard to decide which regiment is a priority.

Harpies - great screen and war machine hunters. Fortunately for me there is only one unit of them so I hope to deal with them fast so that they don't interfere with my movement phase.

Cold One Chariot - impact hits are always a problem for Elven infantry and this is yet another unit that can destroy some of my regiments all by its own. Fortunately it is slower and can be intercepted by my mounted characters. But its ability to support infantry cannot be underestimated!

Bolt Throwers - another priority, no need to describe these fantastic war machines any further!

Bloodwrack Shrine - it was another surprise and the first time I faced it. First of all it is a chariot, immediately a problem for me :) Second, it has -1 Ld penalty, a crucial thing in combats and the fact it grants +1 Ld to nearby troops is also important. Special combat and shooting attacks from Medusa are of less threat because they require initiative tests but may still add to the damage. And the shrine itself is T5 so not that easy to be taken down in close combat. On the other hand maybe shooting and magic can help here!

In general I think Alex has the army with magic and combat superiority if considered fights one on one. However, even with his good shooting, he does not have much of a support as single unit of harpies and a chariot might not be enough to stop me from surrounding some of his regiments. It might simply mean he should keep tighter formation and come at me in force! I definitely need to find a way to separate his units as otherwise frontal assaults will be what DE want!

This time I will not talk much about the terrain because as you can see below it was quite open battle field and the terrain didn't add much to the game (sadly).

Deployment

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Classic Civil War

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Deployment after vanguards

We both seemed to go for refused flank formation of sorts. It is often good idea against MSU armies because that allows the enemy to keep the formation tight, secure one flank and bring their superior units into one-on-one fights. I didn't want that to happen so I started deploying the units further away. I also wanted to achieve these goals:
- be away from Dark shards in DE first turn to force them to come to me and thus entering the range at which Archers can do some harm
- keep characters at a safe distance from Morathi to avoid 1st turn snipes

Morathi decided to pick her spells from Dark Magic lore alone and she got: Spirit Leech, Doombolt, Soulblight, Doom and Darkness
Her apprentice took Searing Doom

Surprisingly, Outcasts managed to steal the initiative and they had the first turn.

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Advance on the left flank

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Dark Shards fight in a shade!

Outcasts seized the initiative and moved forward on the left flank where majority of the forces were deployed. The shooters focused their fire on Darkshards and many DE crossbows fell but the survivors refused to panic. Finally, Larry the Loremaster drew some energy to fry the crew of an enemy bolt thrower. He was visibly taking too much so one of his bodyguards, as instructed by Bob the Battle Standard Bearer, grabbed the magical rod Larry was carrying and banged him in the head. That prevented some dimensional cascade but Larry looked somewhat retarded and it was clear he is not going to cast any more spells that day. Whatever he planned to do materialized as a small fireball that claimed only single crew member. (Edit: I simply managed to miscast, proceeded to roll cascade, used Earthing Rod only to get the result where I lost d3 magic levels and promptly rolled 5 or 6. Who needs magic anyway! :))

Dark Elves - Turn 1

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DE start their slow maneuvering

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Morathi provides some short display on how magic should have been wielded.

DE infantry started to wheel their formation to face their hated cousins. The shooting was not that impressive and claimed only 2 weakened Dragon Princes. Morathi as always had to do things by herself and with a flick of her fingers nearby reavers died struck by a powerful bolt of doom.

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Outcasts reply in kind

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And claim Morathi herself!

Outcasts slowed down their advance to draw the chariot into a trap but also to take advantage of a rare opportunity. All the archers shot at Morathi but only a single arrow penetrated the skin of her pegasus. Then the crew of a bolt thrower took careful aim and two of their bolts hit home! Morathi had to save herself and in the last possible moment opened dimensional portal to escape death but it meant she left her army alone! (Edit: Quite unlucky roll for ward saves for Alex where he failed two 4++ rolls to keep Morathi alive)

What is more lordling that was leading nearby cohort of dread spears decided he is not going to fight without his mistress and gave order to withdraw!

Using the opportunity in this confusion among enemy ranks, Noble charges alone against harpies, catches them unaware and a few survivors flee from the battle.

Dark Elves - Turn 2

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Chariot tries to counter attack

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The rest of DE army continues to advance

Chariot charges Dragon Princes but they retreat to safety. Dread spears didn't rally and the entire flank of DE army collapsed. The rest of the army advances as normal and now exposed noble is killed (Edit: I am not sure but he either died to shooting or magic, as he didn't have wards against flaming attacks and he was vulnerable to Searing Doom).

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Outcasts mop up the left flank

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Battle for the pass in the making!

Eagle rider charges exposed chariot and his Star Lance is a potent weapon against such a beast. It is broken and destroyed in pursuit. Depleted dragon princes pick the easy target and charge bolt thrower to make sure it is not going to inflict any more damage. Archers and eagle claws kill a few more Dark Shards but as always they don't care about fallen comrades.

Dark Elves - Turn 3

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Sorceress flees to the unit of Corsairs

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But Dark Shards keep stinging

Corsairs and nearby Dread Spears continue their long advance but this time both units charge Reavers to scary them away. That slows them down however.

Although shooting capabilities of DE army were significantly reduced they still managed to destroy 2 high elven knights.

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Can Outcasts get the big guys?

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Re-arranging formation

Outcasts move forward in a crescent formation. There are only 2 big threats left, will there be enough time to surround them? Dark Shards were peppered with arrows again and yet again few survivors held their ground.

Dark Elves - Turn 4

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Another turn of slow advance

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Dark Shards finally withdraw

Corsairs and Spears moved South a little bit but the enemy was too far away to mount a successful attack yet. Dark shards had enough and decided to withdraw, hopefully it is not too late to safe their skins.

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Attempt to divide DE forces

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Dark Shards are finally gone!

Eagle rider spurred his mount to catch the bolt thrower while the rest of the shooters aimed at retreating dark shards and managed to get them! but the amount of firepower that unit drew against itself was enormous.

Dark Elves - Turn 5

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Dreadspears make a long charge

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But that divides the units

Dread spears decided to attack Reavers and they managed to reach fast cavalry who decided to hold. But that drew them away from corsairs. Would Outcast risk last turn charge?

Outcasts - Turn 6

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Eagle rider charges again

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The rest of the army plays it safe

Eagle rider swoops down to claim another victim and last enemy bolt thrower is destroyed. The rest of the army, however, does not risk frontal assault against enemy corsairs and withdraw.

Dark Elves - Turn 6

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Poor great eagle takes one for the team

With no other target to destroy Corsairs hunt down the great eagle. After that, two units of DE disengage and withdraw as it is clear they would not be able to catch their hated cousins. This time.

Summary

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Turn-by-turn summary animation

After-battle thoughts

Many thanks to Alex for a great game! Despite almost no magic I think we had a lot of fun and I am just sorry for your bad luck with Morathi early in the game. No doubt that had a huge impact on the game.

I was very happy to get 14-6 victory from that game but let's have a look at a few situations I think may have worked differently.

I think solo charge with the noble against the harpies was a good call. Unfortunately, I didn't roll well to save him later on but I would still do so as these fliers are very annoying.

I was in general happy with eagle rider as he ate chariot and his speed helped him to reach bolt thrower in time. However, I wonder if I played him too cautiously. After his victory against the chariot I think he should immediately fly towards to bolt thrower. I was worried, though that he might get hit by single bolt as it has happened before. At the same time he still had his golden crown so I guess I was too careful.

Another thing is with reavers who hid behind the hill. They had the opening early in the game and could risk moving at bolt thrower. Sure, they could have panicked due to shooting but I think it would have been a good idea anyway. I didn't need to use them as diverters as Corsairs and spears were too far from my units but the fact they did helped as the enemy moved slower when charges failed.

At the same time it meant I was not in position to surround them at all. Maybe I should have let them move further so that there was a chance to attack from many sides? It was still risky with Dead Hag and Assassin lurking among their ranks. But I need to have a good plan of tackling such big units, MSU is supposed to do that after all so I wonder what should I have done differently to be able to achieve that?

Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Lord Drakon
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - deployment

Post by Lord Drakon »

Just looked at all your battle reports, very nice and good argumentating of your choices and mistakes!
I am still very unexperienced, but always preferred the MSU style and I am attending my first tournament in April.

Do you have some general advise about tournaments ? Do you have enough time ? Where do you have to focus on and watch out for ? As expert with MSU playstyle maybe you can give a little feedback about the list I am intending to bring :

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 90#p920690

Also some general tactical playstyle or synergies how to use MSU elven armies are really helpfull !

Thanks !

edit : reading your MSU tactica now
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - deployment

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings Lord Drakon!

Thanks for your kind words, it is a great honor to be called an expert as I am merely seeking to share my experience :) I will have a look at your topic and will try to add some feedback for sure.

Tournaments are very diverse so it is hard to give a general advise as it may depend on what are the objectives at that particular event, do you play scenarios, what are the point brackets etc. It also corresponds to what kind of MSU style you play. I had a quick look and it seems you put your faith in shooting units, trying to avoid combats and having some units to mop up the survivors. Such army naturally will play differently than mine, where I use shooting as a support rather (even if they are very good at destroying things too).

However, time can always be an issue for MSU armies. A few ideas that should speed up the game:

1. Try to come up with some generic or ideal formation for the deployment so that you are not going to spend too much time thinking where to put the units. Be flexible, it does not have to be strict formation but overall idea what should go where and in what order.

2. Obvious but make sure you have movement trays, also to help with different formations for units. It will make moving them easier and it is also easy to use the most efficient setting for particular game/situation.

3. Try to think about your units as task forces, you can merge them with as many units as you want or as few as you want but if you think about them as teams, then you can quicker move them around as you will know where the team has to be rather than to consider individual units.

4. Get a few practice games if only to see how quickly you can deploy and move your units.

The idea of MSU force is that there is no single approach and you are more flexible to adapt to the situation. Obviously, against aggressive army you may want to deploy further to give you more time while against armies where you need to be in combat you will need to be closer.

Also, could you define "synergy" for me because I noticed many people use it but I don't think they do so in the same way as I understand the term. If we are on the same page then we can of course follow up with more detailed discussion.

Thanks for reading the article! I wrote it long time ago so some things might be outdated but principles are the same. Let me know how did you find the reading!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - deployment

Post by Mikael.k »

Really looking forward to the report! :)
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - deployment

Post by T.D. »

Thanks very much for posting this, Swordmaster.

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Looking forward to the rest :D
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Just letting you know that the report was updated!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Marchosias »

Thank you very much for the report! Sorry for not writing anything earlier but time is scarce and there is not that much to comment.

Basically, I am not surprised you won. The army your opponent has brought is strange. Nothing has strength higher than four (well, bolt throwers and chariot impacts but they hardly make a difference), the army lacks speed or durability. I do not see the reason to bring a flock of seven harpies, either - five should be enough to fight skinks and such and seven are 30 points costlier when sacrificed. This together hints at a less experienced player.

Some of your mistakes were discussed on Ulthuan.net so I will not return to them. I have nothing really new. :) Just one thing - it seems you were too scared of the corsairs block. I think there was no need to. They have many attacks and some ranks but that is all. :) You could have attacked them to the flank with something, preferably the eagle noble as he is immune to killing blow. Your hero should stuck as T4 2+ and golden crown should protect him from harm easily against S3 / S4. There would be some danger he would run of course but with three attacks from him, two from eagle + stomp it should not happen. Then you could charge with your swordmasters. The corsairs would have no rerolls to hit anymore, you should be fine. Something like this is not easy to set up but you have achieved such things before. :)

Anyway, you played well and got a well-deserved victory so congratulations on that. :) The only downside is that it is difficult to comment on this kind of a battle. :) So, thank you very much for the report and keep them coming! :)
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - deployment

Post by T.D. »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: it is a great honor to be called an expert as I am merely seeking to share my experience :)


[+] SPOILER
Yes, you're an expert :P


Thanks for the update.

Love your play as always; how you coordinate your whole force as a single organism, and make clever and optimal use of your own resources to pull apart the enemies battle plan. Masterful stuff 8)

The encirclements you complete are always epic :D

So, great play on your part.

The confusing part is your opponents list.

Over 1000 points of core :|

If he had spent the Dreadspears points on Witches (or even 1 Witches, 1 Corsairs if he wanted a meatshield), and the Corsairs points on an elite infantry (Black Guard, Execs, Sisters) he'd have given you and others a far nastier battleline proposition.

I'd personally go for a rapid target saturation list if I played Morathi, with at least Dark Riders and Warlocks to support her.

I thought he played reasonably well with what he had, though he overexposed Morathi ...always a bad idea.

Regardless, tournament win is a tournament win :)
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Thraundil »

HUGE blunder on your opponents part, putting Morathi in a vulnerable spot like that. Maybe she shouldnt statistically die to your shooting - but even giving you the chance to kill his arguably strongest card is a massive error which you took full advantage of. Deserved loss for the dark elves that day.
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for your feedback!

@ Marchosias

Don't apologize, my friend, I do know how time constraints are annoying and how real life responsibilities tend to always find a way to interfere with the hobby! I still own you some comment on your games too!

Well, it is important to know it was a tournament with active Swedish comp applied meaning the difference in composition score affected the result of the game. Hence, many people brought less popular choices to get better composition result. I am not saying you cannot include hard hitting elements and get a good score but one has to look at the armies in that context.

While Alex army does not contain units that strike hard he does have magic support that makes it easier to harm the enemy, either at range or in close combat. It is possible though, that Alex didn't play with this particular army much as I seem to recall he had just a handful games with it before the event.

I agree that I might have been more aggressive with approaching corsairs. However, the things that kept me at distance unless I had a good chance to attack with good amount of units were his characters. He had an assassin and death hag among them. If I charged with eagle rider he could challenge with either character. Assassin has a killing blow ability and both characters have hatred to allow the re-rolls. So while my eagle rider has a decent protection I think he would have been in danger. And if he survived I am not sure if he was able to balance the fact the enemy had ranks and banners advantage to actually hold for 2 turns before I could add more units to the fight.

I must also disagree with the fact that corsairs would lose their re-rolls against Swordmasters. Corsairs keep their ASF after all while Swordmasters hit at initiative order. Had I attacked from the front I would have to face quite a number of attacks before I could even strike. Hence, my charge would have to be better organized to be successful and I simply failed to position my regiments to do so.

While I am very happy with the result this is one of the main things I need to work on.

@ T.D.

Thanks a lot for the kind words! I am glad to know you value my skills so high and I do my best to play the way you describe. If only every game resulted in such a victory like this one :)

As I have mentioned before, the list is the consequence of composition rules and probably the fact that Alex simply wanted to bring less popular units to the game. Of course you are right that some of the units you have mentioned are more dangerous in close combat but even dreadspears can defeat Swordmasters in one-on-one fights!

That situation with Morathi was not expected. Alex could of course double check if she is exposed and I didn't notice the opening until the shooting phase. Yes, it was a mistake but at the same time it was not as reckless as it seem to be from the diagrams. It does happen that players focus on part of the battle field only, especially during a tournament game, and that results in such mistakes.

@ Thraundil

Well, statistically many things are possible. It is the averages you are referring to :). The funny part with probabilities is that the results never tell you when particular situation is going to happen. And in the game of warhammer it does not matter that the probability of something is low when it does happen when you least need it! :)

As I said, it was an obvious mistake but it didn't look like it during the game. I am sure my opponent learned from it!

Thanks again for your comments!
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Marchosias »

Opponent's army: While I understand that one has to make some choices due to comp I still think bringing so many S3 attacks is not the way to go. I have nothing against spears and corsairs per se, I just think that he should have left one unit of spears home and brought instead, I dunno, a kharibdyss? Another chariot? A smaller unit of executioners? Those things cannot comp that bad. Or more shooting and heavens magic for a defensive game.


Corsairs vs. swordmasters:
The eternal question of ASF+ASL. As I understand it, swordmasters still have ASF, it just does not take effect. The effect of ASF is getting rerolls and striking before initiative order. Corsairs have ASF so they get rerolls against certain foes; but one of the conditions is that those foes are not allowed to have ASF themselves. As swordmasters have the ASF still, albeit not under effect, corsairs do not get the rerolls. Another way to look at this is: do Timewarped swordmasters strike in ASF stage again? They do not because they still do have the original ASF. If this old ASF can influence the new ASF it can influence the ASF of corsairs as well.
Anyway, I understand tournaments might be held under various interpretations. If corsairs had rerolls, it would have been unwise to send swordmasters in their front as you say; still, dragon princes could go there easily. You would then need some way to flank charge the big unit. Difficult but doable.

Eagle rider charge: I admit it is risky and probably quite unreasonable in the situation of the battle as I am not sure there would have been good enough follow-up charges. Had you allowed the corsairs to go nearer it might have been an option. Most of all I am trying to convince you that the heroes are not as tough as you think.
To put it simple:
dragon princes only fear killing blow that is not that likely to be scored
steed hero only fears killing blow
eagle hero fears nothing... sure, he could be chased away should he charge alone and the heroes might get lucky attacking him but they would need considerable luck to do something of importance
the death hag is a BSB and therefore highly valuable so your opponent would be reluctant to put her in combats, especially with nobles or dragon princes that she has only a low chance of killing. In addition, she is a naked T3 lady, she survives nothing
assassin has some ward at least but he is quite squishy as well.
fear tests are only taken by units in base contact the models causing it. Once the hag is dead all flanking units are safe in this reagard.
corsairs are only S3. They should do some three wounds to swordmasters if fighting to the flank.

So the unit is no temple guard with oldblood or something, just a bunch of lousy T3 S3 guys with some S4 guys trying to save them. :)

The ideal way would probably be to send in a unit of dragon princes alongside the eagle noble. They would produce some more combat resolution so that the noble does not flee even in the second round of combat. Easier said than done of course. :)
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Marchosias,

Thanks for quick reply! Great to have some discussion going!

I agree that the army can always be tailored to be better. The thing is, I don't have the full picture so while we can speculate what could have been a better force in theory, I prefer to assume my opponents had his reasons to take what he did. Even as trivial thing as lack of other models or the fact he simply liked these and not others. People take different units/characters for different reasons even in competitive environment. Let them do so in the name of variety and you may never know, they might surprise you with something "internet knowledge" labeled as "sub-optimal".

I personally simply treat such situation as if Swordmasters had I5. It makes things easier for me. Of course, that does not solve the problem with Timewarp (and I would still not allow ASF for Swordmasters under it anyway) but that is how I play.

It is a good point that I tend to be too cautious sometimes (and to reckless in other situations :)) and in particular if you talk about characters. It may be a good point to exploit the weaknesses you have mentioned. Eagle rider cannot be KB, DE characters are soft in comparison, so either way I can try and pin that unit down. After all I did that with Phoenix Guard so it should work with Corsairs even more. Indeed, in that particular case I didn't exploit the opportunity and in fact, some delaying action of the reavers proved to help my enemy more! :)

Ah well, each game is a new lesson!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Thraundil »

Marchosias: I get where your interpretation comes from. It makes sense that the swordmaster with great weapon still has the ASF rule, thus not granting rerolls to opponents. But the rules are just not so:

"If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies, so use the models initiative".

Effectively, having ASF and ASL means you have neither rule. So - a corsair hitting a swordmaster will always get reroll to hit (unless initiative or frostheart aura effects apply). The reason timewarp does not "make the swordmaster ASF again" is because the rule is still there on the models profile, and special rules dont stack.

And @ Swordmaster not taking the eagle charge: you only need a small flunk, and you're out of there on a failed break check! Between banners and ranks... No, thats a risk you should not take unless you need to (ie. super far behind, its a big loss so might as well go for it). While an eagle is immune to KB, the death hag could still have a nasty magic weapon such as obsidian blade - and she gets rerolls on your eagle. The odds of him simply being carved down are too big.
Name: Ladry (female)
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Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Thraundil,

Just wanted to clarify that Death Hag would not have re-rolls on eagle rider unless you are taking hatred into account?

As to the risk management (ha, what a fancy definition on warhammer world :)) it is an interesting question. In this situation one might play safe as I did knowing he is already winning. However, the fact is it is also a tournament so every point counts. Hence, risking the loss of approximately 200 points for the eagle rider there was a potential to get many more in return if he kept the enemy in place. If the opponent risked challenge with the hag for example, he also would have risked losing her thus already swinging the balance into my favor. If he challenged with the assassin then I would have had superior armor to speak about and again, a chance to kill enemy character. If he challenged with a champion then we are talking about overkill bonus.

The odds still favor corsairs but the more I think about it the more I see that I needed to be more bold!

Cheers!
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Thraundil
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Thraundil »

I was indeed taking hatred into account :)
Now that I look over his list again, I notice the death hag has no magical weapons... Odd choice.

Anyways. I personally like averages when deciding upon stuff in warhammer. Lets assume he challenges with the unit champion, since quite frankly the death hag and assassin will not really scratch an eagle mounted noble.

The corsair will likely do no wounds: 4+ to hit with reroll gives 2 hits, 5+ to wound rerolling 1's might score a lucky wound against which you have 2+ armour save. No dice.

Your strikes back would deal 3 attacks at 3+ to hit giving you 2 hits, probably 2 wounds rounded up (2+ is pretty likely to happen and you must always trust in this). The eagle doesnt get to strike and provide overkill, so you score 2 CR.

He has the shrine in there giving him 3 ranks and 2 banners. You have a flank, a charge, and 2 wounds inflicted. Are you within BSB reach? Remember the shrine offers a -1 leadership penalty. You lose by one, and so much score 7 or less. 58% chance. This is all considering average rolls of course, but you risk an entire battle point difference worth of victory points on a 58% chance :) and considering even if you hold, and charge with the sword masters - the corsairs would murder them in a brutal fashion, hitting first with rerolls and a -4 LD fear test.
Name: Ladry (female)
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Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Thraundil,

That is why, at least in theory (although I tried that in other games) there is a possibility of charging with heavy cavalry too in order to help the eagle rider. Of course, that fear check is a problem here but maybe that would tip the balance. Of course, both characters are now happy to strike the knights as they have more chance to inflict some damage (especially Assassin) and against small unit of 5 there are enough S3 attacks to pass through the armor.

I am mentioning that because I need to develop some more aggressive approach and have tools to pin down the enemy in place. I cannot and don't expect them to charge the eagle as it is such an obvious trap people don't fall for it at all. Hence, I need more proactive way of getting into positions for multiple charges.

Cheers!
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Marchosias
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Marchosias »

I was assuming the tournament was open lists. In a closed lists game, charging a lone hero in a unit of this kind would indeed be unwise as Thraundil says as the death hag could have, say, rune of khaine and obsidian blade for a good bunch of attacks (4-6 I think) that ignore armour.

This brings me back to my claim that the DE list is weak. Yes, I understand that some people just love spearmen or have no other models but first, that does not make their army strong; second, the player can at least mitigate the weak point of the army (in this case, lack of high strength attacks) with heroes and their equipment. Just potion of strength and obsidian blade would have made a big difference. And I doubt the comp hit would have been that heavy.

The charge with the eagle noble is indeed quite risky. It might be worth it given a certain situation on the battlefield that did not occur in this battle but might occur in some other. If my math is correct, swordmasters flank charging corsairs do not get butchered at all (excluding character influence here): given a failed fear test, corsairs have 12 attacks (six ranks with the shrine, no supporting attacks), hit with almost all so 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 kills after armour saves; swordmasters have 12 attacks back (five wide, champion and one guy remaining in the back row), hit four times, wound on 2+ leaving only a 6+ armour which should mean some three dead corsairs. They could fluff badly but they will not go in alone; in addition, the corsairs were in a horde so they would get a less number of attacks (the shrine would attack then, though... not sure how this is resolved). So for a failed fear test, the casualties should be more or less even. With fear check passed, corsairs would get massacred.

As I have already said (I think), this kind of attack is not easy to set up and you did not have a chance to do so in your battle. You might have been able to create one if you were trying so from the beginning, I am not sure. The moral is, tough hordes are tough but not always untouchable. :)
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Re: HE MSU vs Druchii - 6.03

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Marchosias,

Thanks for more comments and apologies for late reply but I am on holidays now and the access to internet is limited (besides I am enjoying the time outside more than staring at the computer screen :D).

Yes, the tournament was open list policy so you had all the information needed about the equipment of the enemy heroes.

I would like to stress out that I have nothing against discussing army lists. It is part of the hobby and choosing the right tool for the job is important. However, I also want to strongly underline the fact that I never assume I know better which list is stronger and which is weaker. What is more, I have seen enough examples where in the right hands seemingly softer list was doing great. For me, player and his list are one organism. They either work well as one system or they don't. In both cases it is not up to me to question why the player took the units he did. What I prefer to focus on is the fact that I had particular enemy to deal with. He had these units and no others and I had to come up with the plan to deal with them. When I lose, I want to see what I should have done differently with my army. If I won I want to see what decisions could have been different on both sides and if that would have led to different end result.

The reason is that we can argue forever what is weak/strong and that is not a definitive answer to what happened in the game and why it ended the way it ended. I learned that both players benefit more from analysis of this particular case with the tools they had than from never ending army list tweaking.

If had a clear flank attack against corsairs I would definitely go for it. It worked in the past so I would take my chances. However, the idea is to develop the situation where I can execute such a charge from 2 directions at the same time. I agree it is never easy and I should have moved for it from the very start. As I look at the game now I can see I was too passive to achieve that and was more concerned with maintaining defensive battle line. Hence, the result I got was very good in such circumstances but in order to win big I need to improve my planning in particular for achieving long term goals.

Cheers!
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