Campaign to change Cold One Rules...Join here

Govannon · Post by **Govannon** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:07 pm

I've read many a post on proposed changes and ideas for 7th Edition but I think the biggest injustice in the whole book is Cold Ones. These beasts are supposed to be a ton of killing machine. In all the fluff and the pictures these things are supposed to be able to bite through a horse/beastman/human/elf in a single stroke so how is it then they are only treated as horses in the game play side, but on the points side so expensive in comparison. Just look at the following comparison to for steeds at Lord level

MV WS BS S T W I A Ld

Orc Boar - 16pnts 7 3 - 3/5 4 1 3 1 3
Chaos Steed - 24pnts 7 3 - 4 3 1 3 1 3
(with Barding)
Cold One -39pnts 7 3 - 4 4 1 3 1 3

Now all of these provide a 5+ save

Yes, the cold one causes fear but then it also suffers stupidity and as I see it and many others these balance each other out.

Now steeds get an attack from the impact of the charge of legs/tusks flailing about, but a cold one does all this and has a big set of teeth to chop down with. I've heard lots of ideas but the two best I've heard are

1. Simply give the Cold One 2 attacks

2. Give the Cold One some kind of Frenzy rule, where is gets 2 attacks until broken BUT at the same time ignores stupidy on the charge

Something has to change to pay for VAST points difference, I mean it's cheaper for Chaos Knights than Cold One knights and we still have the puny Stregth 5 lance attack, something has got to give here. I love the idea of Cold Ones but they need a little buffing to make them worthwhile.

So please add you vote and together we will get justice for the Cold One

Black stride · Post by **Black stride** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:25 pm

I agree that something must be changed. I don`t like the idea that they would have 2 attacks because they are not that fast. I`ve had come up with two ideas.

1. Additional atack on charge that always hits on 3+

2. We can make them like pegasus knights.

knight M 4 WS 5 BS 4 S 3 T 4 W 2 I 5 A 1 Ld 9
cold one M 7 WS 3 BS 0 S 4 T 4 I 3 A 1 Ld 3

Zah'draich · Post by **Zah'draich** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:27 pm

I decited to vote for something else. Druchii as an elf army should have reliable and versitile mount rather than stupid lizard. I love the Cold Ones as pice of fluff but they just aren't right in the rules. You could think that druchii would train their mounts to obay without room for stupidity and you could also think that the would have selected the most intelligent and reliable Cold Ones for breeding to create perfect war mounts. I think that our beastmasters aren't that lousy.... We should have fast, reliable and destructive lizard cavalry...

Post by **Langmann** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:29 pm

Topic belongs in ideas forum.

IMHO Cold Ones should be vicious instead of stupid. On a failed leadership test they charge nearest enemy unit, failing if out of range. If no enemy units in los then they act stupid as usual.

Duke daedric · Post by **Duke daedric** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:30 pm

maybe give them str 5 ... :?:

It does sound too much i know, but it would explain some of the previous mentioned aspects.

Further more I think that their fear rule would be much more legitimate this way. :mrgreen:

Zah'draich · Post by **Zah'draich** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:40 pm

Im not so sure about that strenght 5 thingy. But mayby an Ogre like impact hit on charge and the new stupidity rule that langmann posted would be the solution for this problem.

Scionuk · Post by **Scionuk** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:58 pm

Black stride wrote:
2. We can make them like pegasus knights.

give them wings? just kidding

id like to see killing blow for the attack to show that these are dirty great lizard who would rather bite you than let you pat them, after all have you seen those teeth :shock:

Wolfheart · Post by **Wolfheart** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:14 pm

Maybe they should degenerate back to fifth edition Cold Ones, those agile-looking velociraptors. And have rules to stack with dextrous appearence:

M8 WS3 BS0 S4 T4 I5 A1 Ld4

No stupidity.
Blood-Frenzy: Becomes Frenzied when at least one model falls as casualty within 6". Don't lose their Frenzy even when beaten in combat. Knights may take a Leadership test in order to prevent their steeds from Charging/Pursuing.
Slimy: Enemies trying to attack Cold Ones (not their Riders) get -1 to hit.

Tenebrae · Post by **Tenebrae** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:18 pm

well, they used to be all about having M 8, didn't they?

Fr0 · Post by **Fr0** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:41 pm

They used to have 2 A IIRC. I would be ok with that. Or, give the CoK S4 and I'm ok with that too.

After they charge they suck.

Fr0

Wakshaani · Post by **Wakshaani** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:44 pm

I'd be happy to just take off a healthy chunk of points and call it a day. Stupidity isn't as much of a disadvantage as Fear is an advantage, so, getting rid of both would also work ... The Beastmasters final bred out a more docile line, one that isn't as ferocious in battle and less intimidating, but, easier to control, along use as proper Elven warsteeds.

So, leave 'em as-is, drop by 5 points (maybe as much as 10!), remove Fear, remove Stupidity, and you're gold.

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:34 am

I rekon they are perfectly fine as is. Perhaps a little expenive (I'd probably make them 27) and WAY too expensive for character mounts, but who want's a character on a CO anyway? Give me a DS every time, even if they were the same price.

Compare them to chaos knights with the mark of Nurgle. The chaos knihgts are 4 points more each to start with, and have to pay 40 more points for the fear. COs are exactly the same on the charge, loe a poit of toughness, but gain a point of Ld, which helps a lot. OK, after the charge they aren't as good, but they aren't meant to be, they should break opponents 1st time. If they are fighting a prolonged combat they should be there for the autobreak when your character/chariot/hydra/whatever kills enough enemy for it.

Loads of people take these guys, so they can't be that bad at all. I definitely see plenty more units of CoK and CoC than exes, witches, corsairs, hydras, cauldrons, black guard, assassins etc. If they needed changing so much would they be used so often? I think not.

The scorpion of terra · Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:29 am

New rule - replaces stupidity

Ambush Hunters - Instinctive behaviour
The Cold Ones of Naggaroth live naturally in a miserable subterranean existance, where prey is scarce, unlike their Lustrian cousins. This has lead to them spending a long time inactive, before they leap on their prey in a frenzy of killing

When subject to instictive behavior at the start of each turn, in the Compulsory Movement section, the Cold One will be subject to one of two effects. If it is within charge range or in close combat it will be subject to frenzy, otherwise it will be subject to Stupidity. If it is ridden the rider may chose to control it by passing a leadership test - if he/she succeeds the Cold One will act normally.

What do you think? I believe it captures the essence of the Naggarothian Cold One better than the current stupidity rules, as well as the fact that it adds an element of strategy in due to the Druchii player having to decide whether to release the Cold Ones and face the problems of not being in range and having to pursue, but benefiting from added killyness, or being less killy but more controlable.

Now we just have to get Greater Cold Ones in as a Rare choice, you know, like the size of the one on the front cover of the Druchii book...

Shiaden · Post by **Shiaden** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:38 am

I think black stride had a pretty good idea giving the riders T4.

This could be a due to the fact that when your attacking someone who's riding a big scary lizard (not that i've actually done it mind), i'd imagine you'd direct at least some of your attention to killing the lizard. I'm not certain but arent CoK the only calvary where the beast has a higher toughness than the rider?

Also am I right in thinking that the knights are a bit tougher than your normal elf? Dont they have to rub some sort of poisonus oil into their skin which stops the cold one eating them when they try to ride it, but also has the slight disadvantage of killing all there sense's which would stop them feeling pain, therefore make them that bit harder.

I'm not sure about the oil (it may have been a dream...) but if I'm right then the combination of both things could justify an increased toughness and may even their points cost out a bit. Depending upon how this worked for characters however (I'd imagine it would only increase there toughness by 1 up to a max of 4) the cost as character mount could be suspect as I have no idea what extra toughness normaly costs (though i'd imagine its pretty damn high).

Tenebrae · Post by **Tenebrae** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:38 am

The T4 COK has been debated to death already atlest twice.
Attractive as the idea might sound, it'd not only give us an elven unit with T4 (which GW seems to oppose), but it'd also make an already too expensive unt even more expensive.

As mentioned, I'd personally like M 8, or a variant of that which is suggested by the Scorpion above, where they'd have stupidity as normal, unless a charge was declared with them, in which case their aggression would override their stupidity.

Fr0 · Post by **Fr0** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:33 am

I don't see why they can't get S4. White Lions get S4, and are pretty good elite units. Then again (WTF? Why are birds chirping at this time? It's only 5am!) Er sorry.. *loads gun*

White Lions are a rare choice unless they take that one 45 point honour. I think that S4 is a pretty fair request comparing our knights to all the other races that get it.

Fr0

Raziel02 · Post by **Raziel02** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:26 am

The nihgts themselves, i belive that there armour save should be increased, to rival chaos khnights, I am sick of gloateing chaos players with a two plus armour save, we should at least have one realyy armoured unit. I think the cold ones should be bosted up either wiht attack or strength.

Lamekh · Post by **Lamekh** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:27 am

Just give them a Banner, that ignores stupidity (like they had)
plus maybe frenzy ontop, or a range for that banner, like all cold ones in 6" ignore stupidity.........

Druchiishootlord · Post by **Druchiishootlord** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:33 pm

wolfheart is saying something i have been saying since i saw the cold one blood-frenzy rule in the 04 chronicle. However i call for a slight change...however it is called Bloodscent

if the model/unit fails it's stupidity test it must move towards the near enemy unit that has suffered any casualties as fast as it can (ignoring march blocking) that is in LOS. If this puts a unit into contact wtih the enemy they count as charging. While under the influence of Bloodscent the Cold Ones, and not their riders, have +1 A.

or following Lamekh's idea i think that there was a banner in 5th that made a cold one unit immune to stupidity. OK here's my thought on that: Make it a magic banner BUT make it expensive...50 points. Or make it a bound spell and force the enemy to dispel it, make it maybe a power level 4-5, for again 50 points that says any unit friendly unit withing 6" that is subject to stupidity is immune to it. Back in 5th edition i think it was 35 points...too cheap as it takes out the only real negative to the unit so make it 50 points, as the only real way to take cold ones that will make good use of the banner is one with 5+character or 6 with just full command. @5+character the unit is 190 points iwth full command...making it a 240 point unit @6 w/ full command it is 219...making it now 269 unit. Or the cold one unit could be bigger i've seen it before. This offsets the banner as pretty much being the base price of the unit as it forces you to think about realy taking it because it makes the unit so much more expensive, about 1/4 of the units price.

@Ant...i use a character on a cold one...i prefer the hitting power he lends to my knights. Plus in that set up i already have a character on a dark steed that goes mage hunting and isn't my general.

Aingeru · Post by **Aingeru** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:42 pm

Off with their stupidity!!!

Or something i WOULD like, is similar to the 6th edition rules, they are stupid BUT whenever they made a casualty in hth they lose it ( i mean they are lizard, may be letargic , but vicious lizard after all...) and also M8" (20 cm)

i DON'T want 2 attacks or frenzy if i wanted i would play Chaos, i want fast and reliable units.

Agur
Aingeru

Black stride · Post by **Black stride** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:05 pm

Leave the stupidity!! We just need a new rule like orcs and goblins have. They can reroll animosity if a black orc is within 12 (i don`t realy know). So if have a cold one mounted character (every character except sorceress) you can reroll failed stupidity test if within 6.
This could also be a special rule that only beastmaster would have.

Post by **Rork** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:44 pm

As a long time use of frenzied heavy cavalry, I don't think you'd like it. Stupidity might affect your game plan every other game - frenzy has an excellent chance of stuffing it up every game (and I don't see DE getting cheap screens, either).

I agree completely with what Ant says - they are a bit pricey at the moment, but even with stupidity, S4 mounts and fear is in no way a bad thing.

Limenix · Post by **Limenix** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:28 pm

Changes for cold new he?
Hmm... as they have 2 legs how about making them ignore difficult terrain?
T4 S4 for the kinghts would be great too and leave stupidity as it is.It's fluffy and fun.

Serion · Post by **Serion** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:09 pm

in the fluff you miht think the knights should have T5. But T4 would be OK considering the price

Druchiishootlord · Post by **Druchiishootlord** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:20 pm

The chances of us getting a T4 knight is close to impossible. S4 would be more realistic.

the thing i see wrong with the knights ignoring diff terrain is that the unit is ranked, not skirmished. If the unit was skirmished, for one i wouldn't even consider the unit, then i could see them moving through terrain. But a ranked unit is supposed to stay in formation. I don't want to see a loose formation heavy cav it's just not what they did.

Campaign to change Cold One Rules...Join here

Should Cold Ones stats be changed

Campaign to change Cold One Rules...Join here