Corsair/Raider Cavalry
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- Ninsaneja
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Corsair/Raider Cavalry
Not an alternative to CoK's, actually. A "Medium" cavalry unit, meant for taking on low AS foes, but better than fast/light cavalry will. The fluff reason is that, imho, corsairs and raiding parties can't rely on the Cold Ones for heavy cavalry, they're too slow! Instead, Corsairs take the position on Dark Steeds, much like a Corsair version of the Dark Rider unit. Special or Core choice, and I'm not sure about points.
Stats: As a corsair (Standard DE statline)
Weapons, Armor, Mount: Two Hand Weapons, Light Armor, SDC, Dark Steed.
Special Rules:
Blades: Corsairs are trained to a high standard with two short swords. As a consequence, they get a +1 to attacks for wielding two hand weapons, even when mounted.
Raid, Loot, Plunder! (considering a rule of this type to keep them cheap despite being a fast, multi-attack unit that slaughters lightly armored enemies): Corsair cavalry are not looking out for victory, they are looking for something to steal - and unlike regular corsairs, they can count on being far ahead of the pesky commanders that would try to make them focus on the battle. If they win a combat and the enemy flees or is destroyed totally, they may not pursue or make a sweeping advance, instead choosing to pick through the remains for valuables. Ignore this rule if within leadership range of the general.
This isn't a final set for the unit by any means, just an idea for a cavalry unit that is not a replacement for CoK's or a rules fix for them, but instead a somewhat powerful unit that fits a fluff niche (cavalry for Corsairs, where CoK's are not a good idea but Dark Riders are too weak, a large area imho.) I'm not sure at all about the second special rule but can't do without the first!
As all DE, they Hate HE.
Stats: As a corsair (Standard DE statline)
Weapons, Armor, Mount: Two Hand Weapons, Light Armor, SDC, Dark Steed.
Special Rules:
Blades: Corsairs are trained to a high standard with two short swords. As a consequence, they get a +1 to attacks for wielding two hand weapons, even when mounted.
Raid, Loot, Plunder! (considering a rule of this type to keep them cheap despite being a fast, multi-attack unit that slaughters lightly armored enemies): Corsair cavalry are not looking out for victory, they are looking for something to steal - and unlike regular corsairs, they can count on being far ahead of the pesky commanders that would try to make them focus on the battle. If they win a combat and the enemy flees or is destroyed totally, they may not pursue or make a sweeping advance, instead choosing to pick through the remains for valuables. Ignore this rule if within leadership range of the general.
This isn't a final set for the unit by any means, just an idea for a cavalry unit that is not a replacement for CoK's or a rules fix for them, but instead a somewhat powerful unit that fits a fluff niche (cavalry for Corsairs, where CoK's are not a good idea but Dark Riders are too weak, a large area imho.) I'm not sure at all about the second special rule but can't do without the first!
As all DE, they Hate HE.
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- Dyvim tvar
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Re: Corsair/Raider Cavalry
Ninsaneja wrote:If they win a combat and the enemy flees or is destroyed totally, they may not pursue or make a sweeping advance, instead choosing to pick through the remains for valuables.
"sweeping advance" is a 40K thing, right? It's not from fantasy. I think you meant to say "overrun."
Interesting idea. For points, They have a better armor save than Dark Riders (and much better against missile fire), but are not fast cavalry. And 2 weapons is equivalent to a spear. So I would say the same cost as a dark rider, even with their disability.
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- Daeron
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Well it sounds good. I like it, point, fluff and rule wise. However I doubt the DE army is in need of a third (medium) cavalry choice. I wouldn't place this unit in the standard DE list but in a variant, such as city guards or northern patrol. If we have a special army lists for raids etc, I think this would be a very nice addition. As you said, COK's don't really belong in raids: too slow and a tad too destructive.
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- Legion noir
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I am not too sure if I like the using two hand weapons whilst mounted idea as all mounts need to be controlled.
How about adding SDC to the DR list of upgrades?This would allow them to remain as fast light cavalry with the option of better armour protection and allows the player to choose to use them in a heavier role. This would also mean you dont have to add another class/type of cavalry to the army list.
How about adding SDC to the DR list of upgrades?This would allow them to remain as fast light cavalry with the option of better armour protection and allows the player to choose to use them in a heavier role. This would also mean you dont have to add another class/type of cavalry to the army list.
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- Lakissov
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I would say, that could be actually an option. But they would have to lose their fast cavalry rule in that case (like mounted marauders, IIRC). Then you could chose some of them as super-maneuverable troops that easily get shot to bits and some as significanty less maneuvrable troops that are much harder to shoot to bits. Would be good to have such an option in the army, but something tells me that it won't be done - we already are the most versatile army out there (except empire and dogs of war - but these are both low-Ld armies).How about adding SDC to the DR list of upgrades
- Druchii1988
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I like the idea of DR with SDC, both fluffy as army related. While it supports our playing style (harder to shoot DR) I don't want to lose the fast cavalry benefits. I don't think making them better in hand to hand would really fit in our list.
Would not it be better to just give dark riders SDC instead of light armour? That way it would still be more difficult to shoot them (AS4+) but they would still be fast cavalry as they only have AS5+ in CC!!!
Would not it be better to just give dark riders SDC instead of light armour? That way it would still be more difficult to shoot them (AS4+) but they would still be fast cavalry as they only have AS5+ in CC!!!
legion noir wrote:I am not too sure if I like the using two hand weapons whilst mounted idea as all mounts need to be controlled.
A well-trained horse can be guided with the knees, completely freeing up both hands. We do, after all, have the option of using halberds and great weapons (which use two hands) mounted.
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- Rasputinii
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I really want to see a heavier version of dark riders in the new list. I really do. I would like unbarded silverhelms if we are being precise, but I doubt we will get those.
Like I say I feel we need something, but this isn't it. It doesn't make much sense. Why would pirates (essentially) learnt to ride to the levels required to ride without reigns? Can't use a horse on a boat, your faster then humans any way, and you have Dark Riders to round up runners and do scouting for you. If you were going to have a mounted corsair it wouldn't fight with two hand weapons. Better to simply offer DR the option to loose fast Cav ability and take a dsC. Makes them alot hardier. Could even chuck in a shield too to create a real medium cavalry. But to be honest I think the answer is to be found in another way. Ash's Dark Knight idea or a lesser COKnight might be the better way to go in my mind.
I still want Horned ones, but that was rather darned powerful.
Can we just have Silverhelsm please? Make DRs special and give us core silverhelms. I would like that alot. But without barding. Would be so much better.
Like I say I feel we need something, but this isn't it. It doesn't make much sense. Why would pirates (essentially) learnt to ride to the levels required to ride without reigns? Can't use a horse on a boat, your faster then humans any way, and you have Dark Riders to round up runners and do scouting for you. If you were going to have a mounted corsair it wouldn't fight with two hand weapons. Better to simply offer DR the option to loose fast Cav ability and take a dsC. Makes them alot hardier. Could even chuck in a shield too to create a real medium cavalry. But to be honest I think the answer is to be found in another way. Ash's Dark Knight idea or a lesser COKnight might be the better way to go in my mind.
I still want Horned ones, but that was rather darned powerful.
Can we just have Silverhelsm please? Make DRs special and give us core silverhelms. I would like that alot. But without barding. Would be so much better.
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- Dyvim tvar
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I designed a Regiment of Reknown at one point that were essentially the Dark Elf version of Silver Helms. The leader of the regiment had some special item that I don't recall.
They had a special rule that they were only fighting for the money, and at the beginning of any turn, if the hiring general was dead and the unit was not engaged in combat, it would immediately bgein fleeing from the table and could not rally.
They had a special rule that they were only fighting for the money, and at the beginning of any turn, if the hiring general was dead and the unit was not engaged in combat, it would immediately bgein fleeing from the table and could not rally.
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- Ninsaneja
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The idea isn't that they ride without reigns, but that their mounts are skilled enough to know what to do in combat and they themselves are skilled enough to hold on with their legs and attack with both hands. When actually riding somewhere as opposed to sticking into combat, they'd use reigns.
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@Dyvim: Really. What happened to 'em?
@Mostlyharmless: What? We haven't had the pleasure of meeting before, so I don't know if you are being serious or not. I'm hoping that were just a joke I don't find remotely funny. As a rule of thumb leave in character comments to the RPGs, they can really wind people up, especially me.
@Ninsaneja: So they need reigns for galloping about but not when in the heat of combat, when the horse is bucking all over the shop and you are trying to reach down from both sides of a horse to use your short (and blunt if the models are anything to go by) swords? It doesn't make sense to me. If chaarcters can't use two sords whilst mounted I don't see why non-profesional riders would be able to. The main problem, aside from the reigns, being that in order to use a sword from horse back you have to lean down, since you are two high up to not and hit infantry. And its physically impossible to lean down on both sides of a horse at once. I know I am bringing alot of real life into this, and thats not the best idea in the world, but I don't feel the idea makes sense, or that its a particualrly great one in rules terms. I mean I know I wouldn't pick S3 cavalry. I like my cavalry to have punch (the problem with DRs as is), and there is a reason I don't take corsairs on foot. Multiple non poisoned S3 attacks just don't cut it from my point of view.
@Mostlyharmless: What? We haven't had the pleasure of meeting before, so I don't know if you are being serious or not. I'm hoping that were just a joke I don't find remotely funny. As a rule of thumb leave in character comments to the RPGs, they can really wind people up, especially me.
@Ninsaneja: So they need reigns for galloping about but not when in the heat of combat, when the horse is bucking all over the shop and you are trying to reach down from both sides of a horse to use your short (and blunt if the models are anything to go by) swords? It doesn't make sense to me. If chaarcters can't use two sords whilst mounted I don't see why non-profesional riders would be able to. The main problem, aside from the reigns, being that in order to use a sword from horse back you have to lean down, since you are two high up to not and hit infantry. And its physically impossible to lean down on both sides of a horse at once. I know I am bringing alot of real life into this, and thats not the best idea in the world, but I don't feel the idea makes sense, or that its a particualrly great one in rules terms. I mean I know I wouldn't pick S3 cavalry. I like my cavalry to have punch (the problem with DRs as is), and there is a reason I don't take corsairs on foot. Multiple non poisoned S3 attacks just don't cut it from my point of view.
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- Ninsaneja
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Well, an alternate unit stats from comments given:
Stats: Basic Dark Elven Statline
Weapons, Armor, Mounts: Spears, Light Armor, SDC, Dark Steeds
Points: 18/model
The unit may be given Lances at +6 points per model.
Special Rules:
Raid, Loot, Plunder!: The unit may not pursue or overrun unless within 12" of the general or accompanied by a character.
Harder hitting, "DR with sdc" with no ranged weapons, instead lance option because frankly spears suck for a combat-only unit and they aren't fast cav.
Stats: Basic Dark Elven Statline
Weapons, Armor, Mounts: Spears, Light Armor, SDC, Dark Steeds
Points: 18/model
The unit may be given Lances at +6 points per model.
Special Rules:
Raid, Loot, Plunder!: The unit may not pursue or overrun unless within 12" of the general or accompanied by a character.
Harder hitting, "DR with sdc" with no ranged weapons, instead lance option because frankly spears suck for a combat-only unit and they aren't fast cav.
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RasputinII wrote:@Ninsaneja: So they need reins for galloping about but not when in the heat of combat, when the horse is bucking all over the shop and you are trying to reach down from both sides of a horse to use your short... ...swords? It doesn't make sense to me. If characters can't use two swords whilst mounted I don't see why non-professional riders would be able to. The main problem, aside from the reins, being that in order to use a sword from horse back you have to lean down, since you are too high up to not and hit infantry. And its physically impossible to lean down on both sides of a horse at once. I know I am bringing a lot of real life into this, and thats not the best idea in the world, but I don't feel the idea makes sense, or that its a particularly great one in rules terms....text edited for correct spelling and homonyms
A horse "bucking all over the shop" is useless in combat whether you use the reins (please note correct spelling) or not. Only a well-trained warhorse can be taken into combat and not panic. A good rider with a horse trained to respond to knee pressure doesn't need the reins for, well, anything. Again, note the option exists to use two-handed weapons on mounted models. The same principle applies - the rider is not swinging this weapon and holding onto the reins simultaneously.
How tall do you think an infantryman is? How tall is a horse? How long is the rider's arm and how long is the sword? Depending on the time period and the culture, your typical infantryman might stand 5'6" to 6' tall (not including goblins and halflings). A heavy warhorse (not the kind depicted by the models) stands about 6' tall at the shoulder. The typical longsword was 3'6" to 4'6" long. Add that to your arm length sitting down and you will see a mounted warrior would have a nice shot at the head, neck, and upper torso of an infantryman without leaning down.
I will grant the rider could not swing to both sides at once - he'd only be using his arm strength and the speed of the mount, but by the same token, you wouldn't swing both swords at the same time on foot, either.
Just bringing in some reality.
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- Ninsaneja
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I'd say they could lean on one side and use both hand on the side... not like they're actually standing still, I'd imagine on a charge they thunder through and back again, chopping as they go... It's stupid to think of a cavalry charge as stopping at the enemy. Horses attack by trampling.
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Ninsaneja wrote:I'd say they could lean on one side and use both hand on the side... not like they're actually standing still, I'd imagine on a charge they thunder through and back again, chopping as they go... It's stupid to think of a cavalry charge as stopping at the enemy. Horses attack by trampling.
Have you ever ridden a horse? Even in a Western saddle, its very hard to lean over and do anything with one hand at slow run. At full gallop and trying to attack with two hands on one side, you would have a very difficult time of staying on the horse.
I dislike this particular idea and Dark Elf medium cavalry in general.
Corsairs are seaborne above all. Why should they be given horses, they are mariners?
Generally I think that we have sufficient cavalry choices with Dark Riders and Cold One Knights which should not be enhanced further. Just my two cents.
Corsairs are seaborne above all. Why should they be given horses, they are mariners?
Generally I think that we have sufficient cavalry choices with Dark Riders and Cold One Knights which should not be enhanced further. Just my two cents.
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