DE Revision - the inevitable thread

[Metallurgist]

Thanee: I just saw your comment on beastmasters with steeds: why would a steed be 'too ordinary' for a beastmaster? It's good enough for a HIGHBORN, then why not a beastmaster, who even train them!

It would be nice to be able to put a beastmaster on a steed and let him follow the harpies somewhat, to make sure they don't fly off; I don't see him doing that on a cold one or on foot... I love the image of a beastmaster on a dark steed, galloping around to keep the various beasts in an army in check!

Perhaps you should poll on this one, as many people don't seem to agree with you on this issue.

-Metallurgist

[Thanee]

I like your list a great deal, Thanee, great work! However, I still have quite some comments...

Sure, comments are always welcome!

Characters
Beastlord: very nice idea! I don't think the 0-2 harpies is necessary though. Probably wouldn't use it anyway, I need my special slots. What about CO chariots are 2 for 1 when you field a beastlord? That would make a somewhat more chariot heavy army possible, at the expense of Ld10. Perhaps some more options like lance and shield, and definitely a dark steed! I think he is somewhat overpriced, he is less good in close combat and has only Ld9.

Beastmaster: just add possibility for dark steeds! Why in hell wouldn't he be able to ride a damned horse? Otherwise, fine!

I don't think (unlike many others) that the Dark Steed would be a proper mount for a Beastmaster. It's just not prestigious enough!

I'll think about the Chariot idea, altho all T5 Chariots are 1:1 so far.

Hag Queen: great, love it! No comments for improvement.

Assassin: no. I don't see the assassin shooting before he is revealed, and after that it's useless. Why not simply lower his BS to 4 and his Ld to 8, and lower his points somewhat?

I'm going to add an Infiltration skill to the Temple as well. Sure the RXB is not very useful, but some people might like the option and it just makes sense, that they are trained in the use of it.

Besides a RXB with Manbane could be quite mean!

I'm considering to lower the point cost (no stat lowerings, tho) and take away the killing blow on reveal ability.

Core:

What about this idea:

Spearelves: same as army book, only with additional rule: DE spearelves always fight in two ranks when using spears, even when charging. This would make them more on par with corsairs, and make them fit in the army better! I always thought spears don't fit very well in DE armies.

No way! Either fight in Three Ranks like High Elves or not. If you want offense, take Corsairs. This rule (I've heard it many times already) is just stupid IMHO.

Crossbowelves: separate entry, 12pts/model, champ +5pts for +1 BS. I don't like the poison option a lot, leave it for the temple of khaine.

I just think, that poison is something the Dark Elves would use and it makes sense to use it with their most basic troops. Also, it makes the RXB Warriors a little more useful compared to Shades or Dark Riders.

City Guard: 10pts/model, hw la spear shield, models on front rank must be armed with rep xbows for +3pts/model, special rule: mixed formation. Perhaps make the guard commander cost 12pts and give him 2A and BS5.

I've deliberately increased their cost, because the formation allows a 4+ save in close combat while retaining the strike in two ranks with spears from the 2nd rank! That's the main reason for the point increase!

A2 and BS5 would be too much for a Champion, altho it makes sense.

This way, you have a rather offensive spearelves unit, and a defensive one (the city guard - makes sense, huh?)

Yes, somehow it does, but Spearelves make no sense in the offense, hence no attack in two ranks option for them. It's just silly.

Corsairs: are fine as is.

Dark riders: I like your suggestions.

Special

Executioners: leave HA an option, never mind the models.

They are not worth their cost because of the awkward combination of lightly armoured low toughness and strike last. Killing Blow is nice, but almost redundant because of S5. That's why I have no problem to give them HA without a point increase. Makes them a little more viable and keeps WYSIWYG (which is quite important IMHO).

Shades: of course!

CO Knights: I would leave them as is, with beastmaster ability and anti-stupid banner they are just fine.

CO chariot: I think the CO chariot should be 85 pts, like the tiranoc chariot, and come with spears and rep xbows. Toughness is a good trade-off for speed, and stupidity is a BIG disadvantage - especially since fear does practically nothing on a chariot.

I often thought about decreasing the point cost, but I'm not so sure. Of course your point on fear vs stupidity is quite valid.

But given that the COC is quite useful already, I can hardly justify a point decrease.

Rare

War Hydra: of course the apprentices should have M6. Also, I think they should get rid of the breath attack and lower the cost somewhat.

*shrug*

Yeah, the breath attack is slightly hard to use, as the model is made to go into combat quickly, but it fits, so what.

Black Guard: I would remove the hate everyone rule and make them 14pts each, with upgrades for mus/champ/standard for +6/+12/+12. That would make them almost playable. 15 pts is still too expensive to use.

Never played them, so I can't really say, unfortunately.

Removing that hate stuff would be a good idea, tho. I'll consider that!

Cauldron: good suggestions!

That's all I'm going to comment on for now, I hope there will be reactions to my suggestions!

Sure!

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

Thanee: I just saw your comment on beastmasters with steeds: why would a steed be 'too ordinary' for a beastmaster? It's good enough for a HIGHBORN, then why not a beastmaster, who even train them!

It would be nice to be able to put a beastmaster on a steed and let him follow the harpies somewhat, to make sure they don't fly off; I don't see him doing that on a cold one or on foot... I love the image of a beastmaster on a dark steed, galloping around to keep the various beasts in an army in check!

I think, that the Beastmaster, who rears and trains the beasts, will only ride on a more prestigious mount, something beastlike, monstrous and so on. He'll show his ability to break the will of the mightiest of beasts.

A horse? Sure, would be quite useful, but there is still the Dark Pegasus (ok, more expensive) to do that.

It just doesn't fit my vision, that's all!

A Highborn OTOH has a different perception, because he does not value a mount by the difficulty to train it, but by other factors. A fast riding horse has style.

Perhaps you should poll on this one, as many people don't seem to agree with you on this issue.

Could do that...

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

I added the Assassin skill (Art of Stealth).

Bye
Thanee

[Metallurgist]

I'll think about the Chariot idea, altho all T5 Chariots are 1:1 so far.

I realise that. It was just an idea that has to be playtested extensively before it is implemented.

I'm going to add an Infiltration skill to the Temple as well. Sure the RXB is not very useful, but some people might like the option and it just makes sense, that they are trained in the use of it.

Besides a RXB with Manbane could be quite mean!

I'm considering to lower the point cost (no stat lowerings, tho) and take away the killing blow on reveal ability.

I think that allowing a xbow option would give problems ruleswise, I see the fluff reasoning behind it. How can a hidden model shoot? Or would people forego the hidden option, just to be able to shoot? Sounds stupid.

No way! Either fight in Three Ranks like High Elves or not. If you want offense, take Corsairs. This rule (I've heard it many times already) is just stupid IMHO.

What the!? What kind of reasoning is that? You'll have to come up with a better reason than 'I think it's stupid'. It makes perfect sense, they are better than humans with the spear, just like HE, but only not as good in defense. Besides, I think most will agree that spearelves are overpriced as they are. This would fix it, make the unit fit better in DE fluff, and be more reasonable in comparison to HE. Now you better come up with a decent reply this time!

I just think, that poison is something the Dark Elves would use and it makes sense to use it with their most basic troops. Also, it makes the RXB Warriors a little more useful compared to Shades or Dark Riders.

If you like. I'm not begging for poison on my xbows, but I wouldn't mind the option of course. As for the usefulness, just drop them a point (12pts/model) and they are pretty useful already. Don't compare them to shades and dark riders, they all have different roles in the army.

I've deliberately increased their cost, because the formation allows a 4+ save in close combat while retaining the strike in two ranks with spears from the 2nd rank! That's the main reason for the point increase!

A2 and BS5 would be too much for a Champion, altho it makes sense.

Good point, I didn't think about that! About the champion, take a look at the orc bosses: they get +1WS, +1S and +1A. Now that's a LOT better.

They are not worth their cost because of the awkward combination of lightly armoured low toughness and strike last. Killing Blow is nice, but almost redundant because of S5. That's why I have no problem to give them HA without a point increase. Makes them a little more viable and keeps WYSIWYG (which is quite important IMHO).

You're probably right. They wouldn't be too good, just useful.

*shrug*

Yeah, the breath attack is slightly hard to use, as the model is made to go into combat quickly, but it fits, so what.

Look mister, you better act a bit more interested at my comments! Writes an army list and thinks he's the man... grumblegrumble...

Seriously, the hydra is overpriced in my opinion. And that breath attack is just pointless, so why keep it?

Never played them, so I can't really say, unfortunately.

Removing that hate stuff would be a good idea, tho. I'll consider that!

Never played them, you say? I wonder why...

cheers
-Metallurgist

[Thanee]

I think that allowing a xbow option would give problems ruleswise, I see the fluff reasoning behind it. How can a hidden model shoot? Or would people forego the hidden option, just to be able to shoot? Sounds stupid.

It's just an option, maybe not one that will be used a lot, but it makes sense fluffwise, so why not.

Of course, the model cannot shoot, while hidden, it's not placed on the tabletop yet.

No way! Either fight in Three Ranks like High Elves or not. If you want offense, take Corsairs. This rule (I've heard it many times already) is just stupid IMHO.

What the!? What kind of reasoning is that? You'll have to come up with a better reason than 'I think it's stupid'. It makes perfect sense, they are better than humans with the spear, just like HE, but only not as good in defense. Besides, I think most will agree that spearelves are overpriced as they are. This would fix it, make the unit fit better in DE fluff, and be more reasonable in comparison to HE. Now you better come up with a decent reply this time!

Geez, even better than 'it's stupid'!? Hmmm... lemme see...

It's stupid (;)) that they get a rule similar to the Fight in Three Ranks rule, which is not the Fight in Three Ranks rule.

They fight with spears the same way as anyone else, hence the generic rules for spears. If elves fight better than humans (they have WS4 if that counts, BTW), they should all (well Dark and High Elves) get the Fight in Three Ranks rule (would make sense, anyways).

OTOH, this would make the two armies even more similar, which is not so good.

So, we just drop the Fight in Three Ranks rule (and do not invent any 1/2 Fight in Three Ranks rules as well) and use Corsairs instead, if we want to attack anyone!

I just think, that poison is something the Dark Elves would use and it makes sense to use it with their most basic troops. Also, it makes the RXB Warriors a little more useful compared to Shades or Dark Riders.

If you like. I'm not begging for poison on my xbows, but I wouldn't mind the option of course. As for the usefulness, just drop them a point (12pts/model) and they are pretty useful already. Don't compare them to shades and dark riders, they all have different roles in the army.

I did drop their cost by 1 point, BTW.

Just compared the poison use... Warriors are there to fight, Shades and Dark Riders have different roles, as you say, that's why they don't get the poison (altho in the tabletop game all fight, of course, as there is no scouting phase or something similar).

About the champion, take a look at the orc bosses: they get +1WS, +1S and +1A. Now that's a LOT better.

Yep, but that's an orc and something very unique to the orcs & goblins army!

*shrug*

Yeah, the breath attack is slightly hard to use, as the model is made to go into combat quickly, but it fits, so what.

Look mister, you better act a bit more interested at my comments! Writes an army list and thinks he's the man... grumblegrumble...

Seriously, the hydra is overpriced in my opinion. And that breath attack is just pointless, so why keep it?

I think it fits. A Hydra just should have a breath attack.

And it could be useful, the Hydra can be avoided and then it will still have the breath attack and terror.

Really, I just don't see why it should be removed, and the point cost also seems fine to me. The hydra seems to be used quite a lot as well.

Never played them, you say? I wonder why...

I don't have the models...

Ok, now I don't have the models, because...

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

Hmmm... maybe increase the breath attack to S4 (but keep the acid one of the Royal War Hydra at S3, of course)?

The Hydra has multiple heads, so this could easily be justified by that.

Added this:

Breathe Fire: S3 -> S4. In addition, a unit that suffers casualities from Hydra's breath must take an immediate Panic test.

(Identical to the High Elf Dragon's Breathe Fire now.)

Bye
Thanee

[Mordkar]

Black Guard(and Phoenix Guard for that matter) die in droves as soon as someone so much as points a bow in their general direction. They are unbelievably expensive and nearly as fragile as Executioners, but their hatred of everything fits the fluff exceedingly well. Remember that they're stubborn too; that alone accounts for much of their points!

[Thanee]

Yeah, but that doesn't make them any better. The Stubborn is great, definitely. But while the Hatred is fluffy (making them the ruthless killers they are), it is the only ability that can be removed without hurting the fluffy side too much (being ruthless killers can also be represented with their other abilities, using halberds, staying in combat, good Weapon Skill and Initiative, and so on).

Bye
Thanee

[Mordkar]

I just can't go along with that sort of thing. It would be like taking the frenzy off of Witch Elves and claiming that the fact that go into battle practically naked is fluffy enough to explain their deranged ruthlessness :(

[Thanee]

Hmm... yeah, you have a point there...

Bye
Thanee

[Adreal_the_immaculate]

well i think this fits in here (shrug)

ok well so were not the same as high elves the following skills can only be taken by one character (who must be your army general(nobel or highborn)) and they may only have one skill
These skills represent where the character is from or what convent they were raised in

Naggarond-Master of the Black Guard(20pts)hatred, stubborn, must be armed with halberd type weapon, cannot be mounted (Black Guard no longer 0-1)

Karond Kar-Beastmaster(20pts) All monsters (ie cold ones harpies ridden monsters hydras) within 12" may use his Ld, If mounted on a cold one may re-roll stupidity (if in unit the unit may re-roll stupidity) monsters that the rider is mounted on don't take monster reaction tests if the rider is killed

Har Ganeth-Draich Master (15pts)Killing Blow, must take great weapon, light armour (including magic armour) and sea dragon cloaks only, can't be mounted

Ghrond-Wind of the North (30pts) 3+ ward save, only magic armour thye can take is shield of ghrond

Arnheim- Bleak Defender (15pts) must be armed with repeater crossbow, gaibs city guard as 0-1 core choice, can't take cold one knights/chariot, cauldren of blood, harpies, shades or corsairs

Temple of khain- Had Queen(15pts)frenzy, may take items skills from the temple of khian up to magic item allowence, must take cauldren of blood, no sorceresses

Dark Convent- Sorcerer (25pts) Lvl 2, can't take any troops from the temple of khain or black guard, must take a normal sorceress (ie high sorceress or normal sorceress)

The Dark Fleet- Wavemaster (25pts) must take sea dragon cloak, can't be mounted, reaper bolt throwers are special choices (0-2 every 1000pts i.e in a 2000pts army you can have up to 4 reaper bolt throwers at 2 per special choice)


I just thought they may be apropriat here, also you can see this with all the spelling mistakes in my other thread on petitions

[Mordkar]

I like the idea behind this a lot! It's really in line with Nehekara's old(and brilliant) special ability list for Dark Elves! Some of the abilities seem a little too good for points though ^_^;;

[Thanee]

So far I havn't included a list of skills (similar to the HE honours) for the DE, but there are plenty good ideas!

But another thing...

What would you say, when the Beastmaster would - when riding a Manticore - be able to choose between either an additional Hero choice or an additional Rare choice for the Manticore?

Bye
Thanee

[Newdisease]

How about this as well.

Executioners

11 > 13

Heavy Armour

+1 Attack and +1 Strength on the charge.

Black Guard

16 > 15

The unit may be upgraded to King's Guard at +5 points per model. The King's Guard have +1 Strength and wear Full Plate Armour (4+ Armour Save) you may only take this if you have a Highborn as your General.

[Newdisease]

Oh and this,

Armour of Living Death (90 points)

Counts as Heavy Armour (5+ Armour Save), the wearer has a 4+ Ward Save and can regenerate , but suffers D3 hits at a Strength +1 their Toughness during your Magic Phase with no Armour Save.

Manticore Cloak (40 points)

Gives the wearer a 4+ Ward Save, this cannot be combined with a Sea Dragon Cloak.

Staff of Lost Souls (50 points)

May be used once per shooting phase, target one unit within 12'' of the bearer and within LOS, the bearer and the target unit recieve 2D6 hits with Strength equal to their Toughness.

Darkrune Armour (25 points)

Counts as haevy armour (5+ Armour Save), in addition the the bearer has a 6+ Ward Save, Sorceress may wear this and still cast spells.

Darkrune Shield (15 points)

Counts as a Shield (6+ Armour Save). If combined with the Darkrune Armour gives Magic Resistance (1), Sorceress can wear this and still cast spells.

[Newdisease]

Just a slight change,

Armour of Living Death (80 points)

Counts as a suit of Heavy Armour (5+Armour Save) the wearer has a 4+ Ward Save and can regenerate, but in his own magic phase he suffers D3 hits at a Strength +1 his Toughness with no armour save (or Ward Save, regeneration roll, NOTHING, NEIN, NADA, NON, GET IT ), however he does not lose wounds in the normal sense, (i.e: he counts as losing 1 wound for what happens next, nut not wounds as in injuries)If, or probably when he loses all his wounds in this fashion he is subject to stupidity for the rest of the game.

[Mordkar]

I can't abide at all with those; they're far too much Newie kun

[Lord girathon]

I love the new list/items posted by thanee. But I would like to mke available an insightful post I read on the G-W forum. The gist of it was that GW will not change the dark elves because their idea of the character and the way DE should play is different from that of most players. Any thoughts on this?

[Thanee]

I don't believe that GW sees the Dark Elves so differently. Most of the changes I made are even based on the fluff presented in the army book.

Bye
Thanee

[Langmann]

I envision the beastmaster as being able to lead an army of beasts or at least a small number to aid a DE army. He should himself not be a combat monster, but should use beasts in a concerted effect.

Therefore I think the beastmaster should have magic items available:

Salve of Healing 5 points : may be taken numerous times, can be used to heal a wound of any beast in base contact.

Ring of Mind Control 25 points : beastmaster can control actions of any beast, including harpies, cold ones, telepathically within 12". Beasts may therefore use beastmaster leadership. Can fight/move independently of apprentices/riders as long as within 12" of ring. Cold ones may roll stupidity tests on 3d6, discarding highest dice.

Work with Beast 5-10 points : may be taken numerous times. Can be used to increase one statistic of any beast by +1.

Ring of Motherly Defence 25 points : Any beast within 12" of ringbearer will add +1A as it views the ringbearer as its own offspring.

I don't know if this has been done before, any feedback? More ideas?

[Thanee]

I think the work of the Beastmasters should already be included in the beasts stats and abilities. How should a Beastmaster be able to make a Dragon more resilient anyways?

Hmm... I give my Dragon +5 Attacks... Yeeeeah, right!

About the Ring of Mind Control - some of these abilities should be Beastmaster abilities anyways (i.e. use his leadership in 12", do something about Cold One Stupidity).

Bye
Thanee

[Langmann]

I think the work of the Beastmasters should already be included in the beasts stats and abilities. How should a Beastmaster be able to make a Dragon more resilient anyways?

Hmm... I give my Dragon +5 Attacks... Yeeeeah, right!

About the Ring of Mind Control - some of these abilities should be Beastmaster abilities anyways (i.e. use his leadership in 12", do something about Cold One Stupidity).

Bye
Thanee

Some beasts could be specially trained. Makes for a diverse list, more than anything. I forgot to mention that the extra ability can only be added to a beast once. Thus no extra 5 attacks, just 1.

I was thinking that the ring would allow more control of harpies and hydras without apprentices, if the beastmaster left 12" the monsters would make checks, also if he died. What I am really looking for is a way of making the beastmaster able to add variety to our list, instead of being an afterthought. The concept a beastmaster in combat when we have nobles for that makes me wonder if GW didn't think it through.

[Thanee]

Sure, but that should be done with the Beastmaster himself, not a magic item IMHO.

Have you read my Beastmaster ideas (first post in this thread)?

Bye
Thanee

[Langmann]

Thanee, your ideas are always VERY good, always well thought out. You know this game well and seem to be an expert strategist.

I have read your ideas on the BM. They are good, but for some reason, perhaps its just me, I don't think the BM should be S4 and be used in HtH combat. As I said I think nobles and Highborn should be involved in that, I just see it as colliding roles.

I think the BM should be improved definately. I see him as more of an animal trainer who uses his animals as his weapons and armour. What do you think of having a special items/magic/beast-abilities list instead, allowing one to customize a BM and his herd?