DE Revision - the inevitable thread

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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

I don't think the BM will take away the fighting role, but since the game is about fighting, characters should at least be able to participate.

In the Dark Elf army, even civilists (if there is such a thing in the Dark Elf society) do fight (Dark Elf Warriors), therefore it seems unreasonable to me, that a Beastmaster only herds his animals along.

Also S4 just seems to fit for someone, who trains with Cold Ones, Hydras or Manticores! :)

Some BM specific items would be good, I was thinking of a magic whip for example, but so far didn't have any ideas, that were good enough to be written down! ;)

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Post by Langmann »

Sorcerors are an example of a character that doesn't fight well in HtH, but has other obvious uses.

I don't necessarily think that the BM not actually getting into HtH is not classed as fighting, he fights, as I said, using the animals as his weapons and armour.

I like the idea of a magic whip. Perhaps one which drives the beast into frenzy for that turn, or makes it stubborn when the BM is in contact with it?

S4 is not necessarily something you would need. I know many people who are not physically strong who train and work with strong animals. Animals so strong that it makes it no difference to the animal whether he/she has my considerable strength or not. They use other means to train than strength. However I can see your point. It definately wouldn't hurt to be stronger.

But what do you think of the healing salves? Do you think its valid, if it could only be used when the beast is out of combat. Perhaps worth 10 points per wound healed?
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

langmann wrote:Sorcerors are an example of a character that doesn't fight well in HtH, but has other obvious uses.


But they're fighting, too. :)

But what do you think of the healing salves? Do you think its valid, if it could only be used when the beast is out of combat. Perhaps worth 10 points per wound healed?


Healing beasts is not very Druchii-like, I guess they would just get another, if the first one is broke. ;)

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Post by Metallurgist »

Thanee, one more thing I forgot to mention in this thread: I don't think harpies should be able to use the beastmaster's LD.

There are two reasons for this: one is fluff, and the other game balance.

Fluff: harpies are feral, savage monsters who happen to live in the neighbourhood of the DE, according to 6th edition fluff. They are not trained or reared by the elves, and as such the beastmaster would have no control over them.

Balance: harpies are fine, really. Allowing them to have Ld 8 would probably make them too good, as you are almost sure you'll reach that cannon crew on turn 2. Low leadership is the harpies' weakness, don't compensate for that with the beastmaster rule.

Last but not least: the beastmaster wouldn't lose out on flavour nor on effectivity.

Please think this through before saying I'm wrong. ;)

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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

I'm wrong!

Oh wait, you said think this through BEFORE... ;)

I see your point... maybe you're right (from play balance viewpoint mostly).

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Post by Dekhalan »

Brand new magic items !

The Blade of Dark Mastery - 85 points
This fabled blade is a work of art from ancient Nagarythe and grants the bearer unequalled skill at arms, many a poweful druchii lord has taken up this blade to do battle with the lesser races.

Bearer gains +1A, +1S, +1WS and +2I

The Blade of Black Iron - 65points
Forged by Furion of Clar Karond, this long blade is both beautiful and deadly, able to slay a foe in a single hit.

Bearer gains Killing Blow and always hits on a 3+

The Blade of Brilliant Crimson - 30 points
This wicked blade is inhabited by an ancient evil, which grows stronge with every foe slain

Bearer gains +1S for every enemy he slays (Max.Strength 10)

The Armour of Unholy Change - 15points
This armour was taken from the body of a mighty champion of Chaos and reforged by druchii sorceresses, it warps the bearer, changing his body incredibily.

Counts as heavy armour, in addition, the wearer rolls on this table before battle begins.

1 - Character has his body ruined (-1 T, -1 W)
2 - Character is weakened (-1 S)
3-4 - Character is unaffected (No change)
5 - Character grows mighty (+1 S)
6 - Character grows tough and mighty (+1 T, +1 W)
...And so it came to pass that the foul elf known as DEKHALAN CHILLWIND invaded our fair shores. This fiend began a campaign of killings, rapings, lootings, enslavings and burnings, sparing neither age nor sex...
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

That armour is fun, but rather belongs into the Chaos armoury! ;)

Anyways, I think I'll reinclude the Witch Elves ability to use Hatred while Frenzy.

I havn't yet dropped the Beastmaster-Harpy Synergies, but might do so (still deciding).

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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

I'm thinking about the following changes...

Harpies cannot (or can only within 6") use the Beastmaster's Ld.

Cold One Knights are dropped to 26 pts (and the Blood Frenzy extra rule is dropped).
Likewise Cold One upgrades for Heroes/Lords are changed to +20/+30 pts.

Seems like most people didn't like the Blood Frenzy rule, altho it's so damn fluffy! :)

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Dekhalan
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Post by Dekhalan »

How about the other items Thanee ?
...And so it came to pass that the foul elf known as DEKHALAN CHILLWIND invaded our fair shores. This fiend began a campaign of killings, rapings, lootings, enslavings and burnings, sparing neither age nor sex...
Chronicle of Walter of Lyonesse
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

The first two are nice, altho I almost think the second one is overpriced (by 5-10 points) and the first one most certainly is (65 sounds more like it). However, I don't think we really need more super expensive items! ;)

The last weapon is quite good... I'm not sure, if the price is right, maybe it's a little too good, OTOH, you'll have to slay foes to gain an advantage, so you would have to bash some units before going toe to toe with opposing characters. Nice idea, tho.

There have been a few based around stealing souls from slain foes and such. Certainly something like this would be a good idea.

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Dekhalan
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Post by Dekhalan »

Thanee wrote:The first two are nice, altho I almost think the second one is overpriced (by 5-10 points) and the first one most certainly is (65 sounds more like it). However, I don't think we really need more super expensive items! ;)


I think we do, we need about an extra page of items. I feel we got the royal screwjob when it came to weapons. Far too many people take the Gauntlet of Power, as it is the best we have. The 2 weapons broaden our selection. 3 viable choices are better then 1.
...And so it came to pass that the foul elf known as DEKHALAN CHILLWIND invaded our fair shores. This fiend began a campaign of killings, rapings, lootings, enslavings and burnings, sparing neither age nor sex...
Chronicle of Walter of Lyonesse
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

I agree that we need more viable weapon choices (among others... enchanted items *cough* *cough*), but best in a moderate to low price range, like the ones I have put in my list. And most of the current weapons need a revision, to make them viable choices as well.

For example, I really like my current version of the Executioner's Axe - it becomes an absolutely viable choice next to the Gauntlet (for a devastating high-power weapon) this way.

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Post by Poisonblade »

I like the list a lot, the only thing I don't agree with is the new cold ones rules. I think they just need to be dropped to 26-27 points.

What are you going to do once you finish the list? Do you have any idea when that will be? It seems nearly complete to me, very good work.
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

Thanee wrote:Cold One Knights are dropped to 26 pts (and the Blood Frenzy extra rule is dropped).
Likewise Cold One upgrades for Heroes/Lords are changed to +20/+30 pts.

Seems like most people didn't like the Blood Frenzy rule, altho it's so damn fluffy! :)


So, I kinda agree with you, altho I really like the Blood Frenzy rule, but well...

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Post by Metallurgist »

I like that, Thanee. Those changes and the bloodbanner back, and the Knights are quite alright.

But of course, you'll hear soon enough of me in the GP forum. On my honour, I will be as objective and fair as possible.

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Post by Jankiel »

Some (I hope) new ideas:
1. Why not add some rules, which will make DE more characterful:
- When fighting aganist HE, Highborn or Noble (not sorceress, assassin etc.) must always issue a challenge (if there are more than one hero in the unit, the one with higher ld will fight). Additionaly they hate their enemy for whole challenge, not only in the first round (so they reroll misses untill challenge ends)
- Assassins shouldn't be able to fight in challenges - it simply looks silly when a hooded elf with two daggers steps before unit and shouts - "Who dare to fight with me?"
- and of course witches shouldn't losing hatred because of frenzy
2. Lets improve old blood banner - for 25-30 pts player can ignore ANY failed stupidity test (not neccessary the first one), one use only.
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

Why should our fighting characters issue challenges against HE? Especially with the Hatred, this seems kinda weird.

I do see challenges as more than just formal duels, BTW, so it's not that ridiculous to have Assassins in challenges.

I do like the idea I put into Metallurgist's thread, tho, that Assassins can always decline challenges without suffering any consequences (i.e. the Assassin can never be chosen to be pushed into the back rank, if the challenge is declined, altho another character or champion still can, of course).

And I also think I should include Hatred while Frenzy for the Witch Elves. Must take a look into the Dwarf/Skaven book to see how the similar units are worded to make it sound like that.

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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

Did a few small updates.

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Post by Jankiel »

Why weird? I think they should prove those silly HE princes who's the best fighter :twisted:
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Post by Shadow »

Very nice work, Thanee. But I still think you should give the Shades an option to upgrade to "poisoned" XBows for maybe +2 points or so.
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Post by Pokeme »

Dekhalan wrote:Brand new magic items !

The Blade of Dark Mastery - 85 points
This fabled blade is a work of art from ancient Nagarythe and grants the bearer unequalled skill at arms, many a poweful druchii lord has taken up this blade to do battle with the lesser races.

Bearer gains +1A, +1S, +1WS and +2I

The Blade of Black Iron - 65points
Forged by Furion of Clar Karond, this long blade is both beautiful and deadly, able to slay a foe in a single hit.

Bearer gains Killing Blow and always hits on a 3+

The Blade of Brilliant Crimson - 30 points
This wicked blade is inhabited by an ancient evil, which grows stronge with every foe slain

Bearer gains +1S for every enemy he slays (Max.Strength 10)

The Armour of Unholy Change - 15points
This armour was taken from the body of a mighty champion of Chaos and reforged by druchii sorceresses, it warps the bearer, changing his body incredibily.

Counts as heavy armour, in addition, the wearer rolls on this table before battle begins.

1 - Character has his body ruined (-1 T, -1 W)
2 - Character is weakened (-1 S)
3-4 - Character is unaffected (No change)
5 - Character grows mighty (+1 S)
6 - Character grows tough and mighty (+1 T, +1 W)



The blade of Black Iron is way overpriced. I almost always hit on a +3, and killing blow is no big shiz.
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Post by Harkon »

The Blade of Brilliant Crimson - 30 points
This wicked blade is inhabited by an ancient evil, which grows stronge with every foe slain

Bearer gains +1S for every enemy he slays (Max.Strength 10)

Not too cheap? Strenght 10 for 30pts? hmmmm...
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Post by Farke »

Thanee wrote:I think the link between Cold Ones and the Beastmaster should be there, it's such a nice way to create some actual synergies within the army and have more than just some units randomly patched together. I also think, that you should not be forced to use the Beastmaster, and that the knights should be useful on their own (or with a Noble).

Therefore I would really make all the above changes.

* Drop cost to 26 (COC to 90, Hero-CO to 20, Lord-CO to 30)
* Allow BM re-roll within 12"
* Let one unit upgrade to Ld 9 for +2 pts/model
* Reintroduce Blood Banner (whatever it does, either ignore first failure on a Stupidity test or my most recent one using the Cold Blooded rule for all Stupidity tests)

Yes you could combine all of these to create a unit, which is pretty much immune to Stupidity, but consider what you would pay for it then, and you still cannot be absolutely certain!


This is from the "Grand Petition" thread. I just want to say that I really agree with all of this. The drop in COK cost is necessary because they are overpriced right now, the BM re-roll will give him some more use then just being a cheap way to get Manticores, and the Ld upgrade and Blood Banner will take care of the Stupidity issues, without being no-brainers (there is possibility for taking just one of them, or both, take them with/without a Highborn or Noble [or even Beastmaster] etc. No-brainers are eliminated due to having more choice!)
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

Talisman: Black Gauntlets - 25 points - Strength +1.

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Post by Black heart »

Thanee wrote:Talisman: Black Gauntlets - 25 points - Strength +1.
Thanee


I really like that idea. You can mix it with normal weapons, right?
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