DE Revision - the inevitable thread

[Thanee]

Beastlord - M6 WS6 BS4 S4 T3 W3 I7 A3 Ld9 - Points/model: 120 (Lord)

Weapons: Whip (hand weapon).

Options:
- May choose an additional hand weapon (+6 pts), great weapon (+6 pts) or a spear if mounted (+3 pts).
- May wear light armour (+3 pts) or heavy armour (+6 pts), may be given a Sea Dragon cloak (+9 pts).
- May ride either a Cold One (+39 pts), a Dark Pegasus (+55 pts), a Manticore (+190 pts) or a Black Dragon (+320 pts). Alternatively, he can be mounted in a Cold One Chariot included as a special choice, replacing one of the crew.
- May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic item lists, with a maximum total value of 50 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Beastmaster (Any monster within 12" of a Beastmaster may re-roll any failed Leadership test; Any unit within 12" of the Beastmaster (note, that this includes himself or any unit he is in) may re-roll any failed Stupidity test caused by Cold Ones; Harpies within 6" of a Beastmaster may use the Beastmaster's Leadership as if the Beastmaster was the army General; If a Beastmaster is slain whilst riding a monster, the monster does not need to take a Monster Reaction test and will fight on as normal); If your army is led by a Beastlord, Harpies become a 0-2 choice instead of a 0-1 choice and the War Hydra becomes a Special choice rather than a Rare choice.

Beastmaster - M6 WS5 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I6 A2 Ld8 - Points/model: 60 (Hero)

Weapons: Whip (hand weapon).

Options:
- May choose an additional hand weapon (+4 pts) or a spear if mounted (+2 pts).
- May wear light armour (+2 pts).
- May ride either a Cold One (+26 pts), a Dark Pegasus (+55 pts) or a Manticore (+190 pts). A Manticore mount will use up either an additional Hero choice or an additional Rare choice. Alternatively, he can be mounted in a Cold One Chariot included as a special choice, replacing one of the crew.
- May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic item lists, with a maximum total value of 25 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Beastmaster (Any monster within 12" of a Beastmaster may re-roll any failed Leadership test; Any unit within 12" of the Beastmaster (note, that this includes himself or any unit he is in) may re-roll any failed Stupidity test caused by Cold Ones; Harpies within 6" of a Beastmaster may use the Beastmaster's Leadership as if the Beastmaster was the army General; If a Beastmaster is slain whilst riding a monster, the monster does not need to take a Monster Reaction test and will fight on as normal).

Hag Queen - M5 WS7 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I8 A3 Ld9 - Points/model: 105 (Hero)

Weapons: Two poisoned hand weapons.

Options:
- May choose magic items (with the exception of magical missile weapons and magic armour) from the Common or Dark Elf magic item lists or upgrades from the Temple of Khaine lists, with a maximum total value of 50 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Poisoned attacks; Frenzy; Dance of Doom (5+ Ward save); Bride of Khaine (Can join units of Witch Elves; Cannot join units except Witch Elves; Cannot be the army's General).

Assassin - Points/model: 125 -> 100

Options:
- May also be armed with a repeater crossbow (+10 pts).
- Promote the Assassin to a Master Assassin (+1 A) for +25 pts.

City Guard - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 10 (Core)

Unit Size: 10+.

Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, spear, light armour.

Options:
- Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model.
- Some models in the unit may replace spears with repeater crossbows for +3 pts/model.
- Upgrade one City Guard to a Musician for +5 pts.
- Upgrade one City Guard to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.
- Promote one City Guard to a Guard Commander (+1 A) for +10 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves, Mixed Formation.

Mixed Formation: Models in a City Guard unit may be armed with either spears or repeater crossbows and you can mix both types within the same unit. If any models are to be armed with repeater crossbows, the entire first rank has to be armed this way. Models in the second and following ranks are always armed with spears. During the game, remove casualities from the back as normal, it is assumed, that the spear-armed models step forward and discard their spears to pick up the repeater crossbows of the fallen first rankers. Only when all the spear-armed models have been killed, can casualities be taken from the repeater crossbow-armed models in the first rank. If the Guard Commander dies, a spear-armed model steps forward and picks up the repeater crossbow in the same way.

Dark Elf Warriors - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 7

Unit Size: 10+.

Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, light armour.

Options:
- Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model.
- Any unit may be equipped with spears for +2 pt/model or repeater crossbows for +5 pts/model.
- Any unit armed with repeater crossbows may have poisoned crossbow bolts for +2 pts/model.
- Upgrade one Warrior to a Musician for +5 pts.
- Upgrade one Warrior to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.
- Promote one Warrior to a Lordling (+1 A) for +10 pts.

Dark Riders

Options:
- Promote one Dark Rider to a Herald (+1 BS) for +7 pts or a Harbinger (+1 A) for +14 pts.

Shades

Options:
- Promote one Shade to be a Bloodshade for +6 pts.

Witch Elves

Witch Elves hate High Elves even while they are frenzy.

Executioners

Heavy armour instead of light armour.

War Hydra

Apprentices have M6.

Breathe Fire: S3 -> S4. In addition, a unit that suffers casualities from Hydra's breath must take an immediate Panic test.

The Royal War Hydra

Acidic Breath: S2 -> S3.

Splashback: S2 -> S3.

0-1 Black Guard

Points/model: 16 -> 15.

Options:
- The Master may choose up to 25 points of magic items from the Common or Dark Elf list.

0-1 Cauldron of Blood

Red Fury range increased to 24".

An attacking unit benefits from the Red Fury for the remainder of the current player's turn, if it started its movement within range of the Cauldron.

Hits from shooting are randomized between the Cauldron and the Guardians as per the standard warmachine rules.

Cold Ones

Cold Ones are subject to Blood Frenzy. When the unit wins a round of close combat, the Cold Ones have 2 Attacks for the rest of the game. Note, that this is unique to the Dark Elven Cold Ones, reflecting the brutal training of the Beastmasters, rearing these fearsome mounts for battle.

Optional: Instead of the above, the basic cost for a Cold One is reduced from 13 to 10 points, dropping the cost of Cold One Knights to 26 points/model, the cost of a Cold One Chariot to 90 points and the cost of a Cold One mount for a Hero/Lord to 20/30 points.

Malekith - Points: 975 -> 1000

Counts as one Lord choice and two Hero choices.

Destroyer (errata) - You can choose which item to destroy (weapon or armour)! Your opponent does not have to tell you the exact items among which you can choose, but has to tell you the general types (i.e. weapon, armour, shield).

Armour of Midnight (errata) - The Armour of Midnight gives a 3+ armour save.

Circlet of Iron - Malekith always wears the Circlet of Iron, which gives him +1 Power dice in each of his own magic phases. Only Malekith may use this extra dice. The Circlet of Iron also grants Malekith Magic Resistance (2).

Morathi

High Sorceress (errata) - Morathi is a Fourth Level Dark Elf Sorceress. She uses Dark Magic and knows all six spells from this lore. In addition, Morathi adds +2 to all of her casting rolls, rather than the normal +1.

Touch of Chaos - Morathi can opt to use the Lore of Slaanesh instead of Dark Magic, but if she does, she has to randomly generate four spells as normal.

Malus Darkblade

Weapons and Armour: As listed plus Sea Dragon cloak.

Dark Magic

Word of Pain (errata) - May be cast into close combat.

Dominion (errata) - Range increased to 18".

Black Horror (clarification) - Only the point, where the template is centered on, must be in line of sight and within 18".

Magic Weapons

Executioner's Axe (errata) - In addition to the given abilities, any model wounded by the Executioner's Axe (after saves, etc) loses not one but D3 wounds.

Crimson Death (errata) - Points: 35 -> 30.

Web of Shadows (errata) - If a model armed with the Web of Shadows has the Killing Blow special ability, it has no effect, when the Web of Shadows is used.

Chill Blade (errata) - Points: 25 -> 20.

Dark Sword (errata) - In addition to the given abilities, for every wound a model loses to the Dark Sword, its Leadership is decreased by one for the remainder of the battle.

Assassin's Dagger - 50 points - Models on foot only. The wielder always strikes first, even if his opponent charged that turn. In addition the wielder gains the Killing Blow special ability.

Twin Swords of Khaine - 35 points - Models on foot only. The wielder is armed with two weapons and gets the same benefits and drawbacks as if armed with an additional handweapon. In addition, the wielder gains +1 Strength.

Magic Armour

Armour of Living Death (errata) - Points: 100 -> 65 - The Armour of Living Death gives a 4+ armour save (instead of 5+), which can be combined with other armour as normal.

Armour of Eternal Servitude (errata) - Points: 60 -> 65 - In addition to the given abilities, the wearer heals one wound at the beginning of each of his turns, unless he's slain.

Armour of Darkness (errata) - This armour does not include a shield.

Blood Armour (errata/clarification) - Blood Armour is treated as a suit of normal heavy armour (5+ armour save) and can be combined with other armour as normal. For every unsaved wound the wearer inflicts in close combat, the armour save granted by Blood Armour is improved by 1 point (to 4+, then 3+, etc.) up to a maximum of 1+.

Talismans

Ring of Hotek (errata) - Points: 20 -> 25 - Range increased to 10".

The Dark Heart - 30 points - The bearer has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical attacks.

Insignia of Authority - 25 points - Army General only. Friendly units within 18" (instead of the usual 12") may use the bearer's Leadership value.

Enchanted Items

Ring of Darkness (errata) - Points: 45 -> 50 - Does not remain in play, instead lasts until the start of the wearer's next Magic phase.

Crystal of Midnight (errata) - Nominate a Wizard anywhere on the table. The Wizard forgets one randomly determined spell for the rest of the battle.

Staff of Slavery - 45 points - Bound Spell. Power Level 4. The Staff may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the staff itself. The Staff of Slavery contains the Dominion spell described in the Dark Magic spells on page 17. Each time the spell is dispelled, roll a D6. On a roll of 1, the power of the Staff has been exhausted and it may not be used for the rest of the battle.

Ring of Doom - 35 points - Bound Spell. Power Level 3. The Ring may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the ring itself. The Ring of Doom contains the Doombolt spell described in the Dark Magic spells on page 17.

Potion of Strength - 20 points - One use only. At the beginning of any of his turns, the bearer may quaff the Potion to gain +2 Strength until the end of that turn.

Arcane Items

Wand of Darkness - 50 points - During each of your own Magic Phases, the wand allows the Dark Elf player to remove one dice from the opponent's pile of Dispel dice and add it to his own Power dice pile.

Spellcall Familiar - 25 points - The familiar's owner can swap one spell for any one spell from the chosen lore instead of the first spell of that lore when generating spells.

Sphere of Corruption - 25 points - One use only. Upon casting a spell, the bearer can invoke the powers resting within the Sphere of Corruption before rolling the Power dice. The spell counts as being cast with Irresistible Force, if at least a single six (as opposed to the double six normally needed) is rolled on the Power dice. A Miscast still takes precedence over an Irresistible Force result.

Magic Standards

Hydra Banner (errata) - Points: 80 -> 75.

Dread Banner (errata) - Points: 75 -> 50.

Standard of Slaughter (errata) - The unit gains +D3 to combat resolution everytime it charges.

Banner of Relentless Assault - 50 points - The unit carrying the banner has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical missiles.

Banner of Swift Killing - 35 points - The unit carrying the banner has their base move increased by 1".

Banner of Hatred - 25 points - The unit carrying the banner (not including mounts) hates all enemies.

Banner of Cold Blood - 15 points - The unit carrying the banner rolls all Stupidity tests on 3D6 and discards the highest dice score.

Poisons

Dark Venom (errata) - Unlike other poisons, Dark Venom can be applied to a magic weapon.

Artifacts and Skills

Dance of Doom (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25.

Touch of Death (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25 - Assassin only.

Witchbrew (clarification) - The effect of Witchbrew remains, even if the Hag has been killed.

Art of Stealth - 25 points - Assassin only. The Assassin can be deployed as a Scout.

Deathdealer - 50 points - Assassin only. The Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. When all attacks are directed to a single model, the Killing Blow succeeds on 5+ rather than 6+.

Bye
Thanee

[Imdat tauble]

cool... cant wait... (need all the stuff off the old forum as well no doubt)

this time add in a poll - u can get a general consensus from it a lot better

[Thanee]

I have it on my computer at home, so I don't need the old forum for that, and I'll post it this evening.

The only thing left at the old forum are my battle reports, which I might copy and paste, once Kitrik gives access to it.

Bye
Thanee

[Imdat tauble]

cool!!! lookin forward to it

[Thanee]

Here ya go!

Bye
Thanee

[Imdat tauble]

wow, thats long... let me see...

Beastlord - M6 WS6 BS4 S4 T3 W3 I6 A3 Ld9 - Points/model: 100 (Lord)

Weapons: Whip (hand weapon).

Options:
- May choose an additional hand weapon (+6 pts), great weapon (+6 pts) or a spear if mounted (+3 pts).
- May wear light armour (+3 pts) or heavy armour (+6 pts), may be given a Sea Dragon cloak (+9 pts).
- May ride either a Cold One (+39 pts), a Dark Pegasus (+55 pts), a Manticore (+190 pts) or a Black Dragon (+320 pts). Alternatively, he can be mounted in a Cold One Chariot included as a special choice, replacing one of the crew.
- May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic item lists, with a maximum total value of 50 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Beastmaster (Any monster within 12" of a Beastmaster may re-roll any failed Leadership test; Any unit within 12" of the Beastmaster (note, that this includes himself or any unit he is in) may re-roll any failed Stupidity test caused by Cold Ones; Harpies within 12" of a Beastmaster may use the Beastmaster's Leadership as if the Beastmaster was the army General; If a Beastmaster is slain whilst riding a monster, the monster does not need to take a Monster Reaction test and will fight on as normal); If your army is led by a Beastlord, Harpies become a 0-2 choice instead of a 0-1 choice and the War Hydra becomes a Special choice rather than a Rare choice.

**make the harpy range 6" - less people will get annoyed then, other than that, really good (for the change in composition choices, id make it a tiny bit more xpensive tho)

Beastmaster - M6 WS5 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I6 A2 Ld8 - Points/model: 60 (Hero)

Weapons: Whip (hand weapon).

Options:
- May choose an additional hand weapon (+4 pts) or a spear if mounted (+2 pts).
- May wear light armour (+2 pts).
- May ride either a Cold One (+26 pts), a Dark Pegasus (+55 pts) or a Manticore (+190 pts). A Manticore mount will use up an additional Hero slot. Alternatively, he can be mounted in a Cold One Chariot included as a special choice, replacing one of the crew.
- May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic item lists, with a maximum total value of 25 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Beastmaster (Any monster within 12" of a Beastmaster may re-roll any failed Leadership test; Any unit within 12" of the Beastmaster (note, that this includes himself or any unit he is in) may re-roll any failed Stupidity test caused by Cold Ones; Harpies within 12" of a Beastmaster may use the Beastmaster's Leadership as if the Beastmaster was the army General; If a Beastmaster is slain whilst riding a monster, the monster does not need to take a Monster Reaction test and will fight on as normal).

**good, same as beastlord with harpies

Hag Queen - M5 WS7 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I8 A3 Ld9 - Points/model: 105 (Hero)

Weapons: Two poisoned hand weapons.

Options:
- May choose magic items (with the exception of magical missile weapons and magic armour) from the Common or Dark Elf magic item lists or upgrades from the Temple of Khaine lists, with a maximum total value of 50 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Poisoned attacks; Frenzy; Dance of Doom (5+ Ward save); Can join units of Witch Elves; Cannot join units except Witch Elves; Cannot be the army's General.

**also very nice

Assassin

Special Rules:
In the turn he is first revealed, a hidden Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. He does not have this ability during any subsequent turns.

**i dunno if this is needed really. The assassin seems good as is when it comes to actual figting - however making him a scout... thats important

City Guard - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 9 (Core)

Unit Size: 10+.

Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, spear, light armour.

Options:
- Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model.
- Some models in the unit may replace spears with repeater crossbows for +4 pts/model.
- Upgrade one Guard to a Musician for +5 pts.
- Upgrade one Guard to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.
- Upgrade one Guard to a Guard Commander (+1 A) for +10 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves, Mixed Formation.

Mixed Formation: Models in a City Guard unit may be armed with either spears or repeater crossbows and you can mix both types within the same unit. If any models are to be armed with repeater crossbows, the entire first rank has to be armed this way. Models in the second and following ranks are always armed with spears. During the game, remove casualities from the back as normal, it is assumed, that the spear-armed models step forward and discard their spears to pick up the repeater crossbows of the fallen first rankers. Only when all the spear-armed models have been killed, can casualities be taken from the repeater crossbow-armed models in the first rank. If the Guard Commander dies, a spear-armed model steps forward and picks up the repeater crossbow in the same way.

**need to make basic cost 10pts - thats what it costs for the spacial formation

Dark Elf Warriors - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 7

Unit Size: 10+.

Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, light armour.

Options:
- Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model.
- Any unit may be equipped with spears for +1 pt/model or repeater crossbows for +5 pts/model.
- Any unit armed with repeater crossbows may have poisoned crossbow bolts for +2 pts/model.
- Upgrade one Warrior to a Musician for +5 pts.
- Upgrade one Warrior to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.
- Upgrade one Warrior to a Lordling (+1 A) for +10 pts.

**um, i lost the place where de warriors with spears cost 8 points... they're balanced as is, they just were unusable as they were the wrong type of unit before...

Dark Riders

Options:
- Promote one Dark Rider to a Herald (+1 BS) for +7 pts or a Harbinger (+1 A) for +14 pts.

**agreed totally

Shades

Options:
- Promote one Shade to be a Bloodshade for +6 pts.

**of course

Executioners

Heavy armour instead of light armour.

**add a cost - and make it an option (i still want to be able to take the cheaper exes)

War Hydra

Apprentices have M6.

**stupid gav shoulda dun this with the book - of course they should have M6!!!

Black Guard

Points/model: 16 -> 15.

Options:
- The Master may choose up to 25 points of magic items from the Common or Dark Elf list.

**i dunno much about black guard, so ill just say ok

Cauldron of Blood

Red Fury range increased to 24".

An attacking unit benefits from the Red Fury for the remainder of the current player's turn, if it started its movement within range of the Cauldron.

Hits from shooting are randomized between the Cauldron and the Guardians as per the standard warmachine rules.

**sounds good

Cold Ones

Cold Ones are subject to Blood Frenzy. When the unit wins a round of close combat, the Cold Ones have 2 Attacks for the rest of the game. Note, that this is unique to the Dark Elven Cold Ones, reflecting the brutal training of the Beastmasters, rearing these fearsome mounts for battle.

**nice, but shouldnt it cost more for it?

Malekith

Counts as one Lord choice and two Hero choices.

Destroyer (errata) - You can choose which item to destroy (weapon or armour), not your opponent!

**this screws the very rules of warhammer up, coz it makes it so that you know all of your opponents magic weapons - which makes it WAY too good

Circlet of Iron - Malekith always wears the Circlet of Iron, which gives him +1 Power dice in each of his own magic phases. Only Malekith may use this extra dice. The Circlet of Iron also grants Malekith Magic Resistance (2).

**good

Morathi

Touch of Chaos - Morathi can opt to use the Lore of Slaanesh instead of Dark Magic, but if she does, she has to randomly generate her spells rather than choosing them.

**yep

Malus Darkblade

Weapons and Armour: As listed plus Sea Dragon cloak.

**ok

Dark Magic

Word of Pain (errata) - May be cast into close combat.

**like it a lot

Magic Weapons

Executioner's Axe (errata) - In addition to the given abilities, the wielder gains the Killing Blow special ability.

**good

Crimson Death (errata) - Points: 35 -> 30.

**good

Dark Sword (errata) - In addition to the given abilities, for every wound a model loses to the Dark Sword, its Leadership is decreased by one.

**yep

Assassin's Dagger - 50 points - The wielder always strikes first, even if his opponent charged that turn. In addition the wielder gains the Killing Blow special ability.

**very nice

Twin Swords of Khaine - 35 points - The wielder is armed with two weapons and gets the same benefits and drawbacks as if armed with an additional handweapon. In addition, the wielder gets +1 Strength.

**nice

Magic Armour

Armour of Living Death (errata) - The Armour of Living Death gives a 4+ armour save (instead of 5+), which can be combined with other armour as normal.

**nice

Armour of Eternal Servitude (errata) - Points: 60 -> 65 - In addition to the given abilities, the wearer heals one wound at the beginning of each of his turns, unless he's slain.

**for the added points cost, ok (perhaps a tiny bit cheap)

Armour of Darkness (errata) - This armour does not include a shield.

**yep

Blood Armour (clarification) - The Blood Armour save is improved up to a maximum of 1+, which can be combined with other armour as normal.

**cool

Talismans

Ring of Hotek (errata) - Range increased to 10".

**nah, just change it to the other way of doing it - it is a ring of magical protection - anything cast INTO the radius gets the effect...

Shield Amulet - 30 points - The bearer has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical attacks.

**lol - our 4+ ward save

Insignia of Authority - 25 points - Army General only. Friendly units within 18" (instead of the usual 12") may use the bearer's Leadership value.

**nice

Enchanted Items

Ring of Darkness (errata) - Points: 45 -> 50 - Does not remain in play, instead lasts until the start of the wearer's next Magic phase.

**good

Staff of Slavery - 45 points - Bound Spell. Power Level 4. The Staff may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the staff itself. The Staff of Slavery contains the Dominion spell described in the Dark Magic spells on page 17. Each time the spell is dispelled, roll a D6. On a roll of 1, the power of the Staff has been exhausted and it may not be used for the rest of the battle.

**i like that

Ring of Doom - 35 points - Bound Spell. Power Level 3. The Ring may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the staff itself. The Ring of Doom contains the Doombolt spell described in the Dark Magic spells on page 17.

**good

Potion of Strength - 20 points - One use only. At the beginning of any of his turns, the bearer may quaff the Potion to gain +2 Strength until the end of that turn.

**yep... a very good item

Arcane Items

Wand of Darkness - 50 points - During each of your own Magic Phases, the wand allows the Dark Elf player to remove one dice from the opponent's pile of Dispel dice and add it to his own Power dice pile.

**like this one a LOT

Spellcall Familiar - 25 points - The familiar's owner can swap one spell for any one spell from the chosen lore instead of the first spell of that lore when generating spells.

**wow - thats nice

Sphere of Corruption - 25 points - One use only. Upon casting a spell, the bearer can invoke the powers resting within the Sphere of Corruption before rolling the Power dice. The spell counts as being cast with Irresistible Force, if at least a single six (as opposed to the double six normally needed) is rolled on the Power dice. A Miscast still takes precedence over an Irresistible Force result.

**good

Magic Standards

Hydra Banner (errata) - Points: 80 -> 75

**not complaining

Banner of Power - 75 points - The banner adds +3 Power dice to your pile in each of your own Magic phases.

**cool

Banner of Relentless Assault - 50 points - The unit carrying the banner has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical missiles.

**maybe make it a 5+ ward

Banner of Swift Killing - 35 points - The unit carrying the banner has their base move increased by 1".

**we need something like this thats more reliable than the banner of murder...

Banner of Hatred - 25 points - The unit carrying the banner hates all enemies.

**of course

Blood Banner - 20 points - One use only. The unit carrying the banner automatically ignores their first failed Stupidity test.

**say CoK only...

Artifacts and Skills

Dance of Doom (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25

**this'll never get through - the idea is that you cant use it in conjunction with manbane etc. when fielding the assassin

Touch of Death (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25 - Assassin only.

**as above

Witchbrew (clarification) - The effect of Witchbrew remains, even if the Hag has been killed.

**nice

Deathdealer - 50 points - Assassin only. The Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. When all attacks are directed to a single model, the Killing Blow succeeds on 5+ rather than 6+.

**wow thats really good, but worth it

[Thanee]

wow, thats long... let me see...

Beastlord - M6 WS6 BS4 S4 T3 W3 I6 A3 Ld9 - Points/model: 100 (Lord)

**make the harpy range 6" - less people will get annoyed then, other than that, really good (for the change in composition choices, id make it a tiny bit more xpensive tho)

Nah, with 6" the ability would be useless. The cost is not fixed, I have included it just a few hours ago and it might still need tweaking!

City Guard - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 9 (Core)

**need to make basic cost 10pts - thats what it costs for the spacial formation

Dark Elf Warriors - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 7

**um, i lost the place where de warriors with spears cost 8 points... they're balanced as is, they just were unusable as they were the wrong type of unit before...

They don't cost 8 points usually, but 9! I reduced the basic cost by one here, as it seems appropriate. This is the same cost as in the Ravening Hordes. City Guard pays +1 point for the formation.

Executioners

Heavy armour instead of light armour.

**add a cost - and make it an option (i still want to be able to take the cheaper exes)

I don't think it should be an option, as the models look like having heavy armour, and I don't think, that they should pay for it, the heavy armour does not add much to their effectiveness, really.

Cold Ones

Cold Ones are subject to Blood Frenzy. When the unit wins a round of close combat, the Cold Ones have 2 Attacks for the rest of the game. Note, that this is unique to the Dark Elven Cold Ones, reflecting the brutal training of the Beastmasters, rearing these fearsome mounts for battle.

**nice, but shouldnt it cost more for it?

Cold Ones are overpriced, so this is to balance it rather than making them less expensive.

Malekith

Destroyer (errata) - You can choose which item to destroy (weapon or armour), not your opponent!

**this screws the very rules of warhammer up, coz it makes it so that you know all of your opponents magic weapons - which makes it WAY too good

Why does it? You do not need to know what to destroy, you can just say weapon or armour, this doesn't mean your opponent has to tell you what is what there.

Armour of Eternal Servitude (errata) - Points: 60 -> 65 - In addition to the given abilities, the wearer heals one wound at the beginning of each of his turns, unless he's slain.

**for the added points cost, ok (perhaps a tiny bit cheap)

I don't think it is cheap. First you get a WORSE armour save with this item, as it uses the armour slot and is only 6+, second Regeneration is not as good as a 4+ Ward save (45 points), altho GW doesn't seem to realize this (yes, it can be combined with a Ward save, but you also have to buy both, which will use up all 100 points of items)! Without this ability I'd price the armour at about 40 points.

Ring of Hotek (errata) - Range increased to 10".

**nah, just change it to the other way of doing it - it is a ring of magical protection - anything cast INTO the radius gets the effect...

That would be far too good!

Shield Amulet - 30 points - The bearer has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical attacks.

**lol - our 4+ ward save

Well, I don't think we need a universal 4+ Ward save, but this one will be quite useful.

Banner of Relentless Assault - 50 points - The unit carrying the banner has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical missiles.

**maybe make it a 5+ ward

5+ Ward save against all missiles (normal and magic) would be 50 points (VC have that), but I figured that making this one a little different would be nice.

Blood Banner - 20 points - One use only. The unit carrying the banner automatically ignores their first failed Stupidity test.

**say CoK only...

Why? You could also give it to a BSB and put him on a COC.

Dance of Doom (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25

**this'll never get through - the idea is that you cant use it in conjunction with manbane etc. when fielding the assassin

Magic Warpaint is the same. Models that can take this option have no armour options in general, therefore 25 points is correct. Besides it is clearly an upgrade for a Hag (fluff), so she should be allowed to take it!

Touch of Death (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25 - Assassin only.

**as above

Actually 25 points seems to be the price for Killing Blow (plenty of items and other upgrades in various army lists have that cost). I really don't think that there are any overly cheesy combinations possible.

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

I increased the Beastlord cost to 120, he really seemed a little cheap, as he is pretty much as good as a Noble with an additional wound and some nice abilities.

Bye
Thanee

[Imdat tauble]

k cool... ill take a look at them in more detail later (have no desire to tackle such a long thread)

[Thanee]

Just to make sure, some of these changes should also affect the High Elf list:

High Elf Archers -1 point
High Elf Lothern Sea Guard -3 points
High Elf Ellyrian Reavers Champion -7 points
High Elf Shadow Warriors Champion -6 points

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

I'm considering to drop the Banner of Power and the Blood Banner, the first is not overly useful and the second takes away too much from the Beastmaster ability.

Bye
Thanee

[Da'ghault]

First Priority Level

Dark Elf Warriors - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 7

Unit Size: 10+.

Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, light armour.

Options:
- Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model.
- Any unit may be equipped with spears for +1 pt/model or repeater crossbows for +5 pts/model.
- Any unit armed with repeater crossbows may have poisoned crossbow bolts for +2 pts/model.
- Upgrade one Warrior to a Musician for +5 pts.
- Upgrade one Warrior to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.
- Upgrade one Warrior to a Lordling (+1 A) for +10 pts.


Dark Riders

Options:
- Promote one Dark Rider to a Herald (+1 BS) for +7 pts or a Harbinger (+1 A) for +14 pts.

Shades

Options:
- Promote one Shade to be a Bloodshade for +6 pts.


Spearmen should have spears for 1 pt (All S3,A1 troops should pay 1 pt for it).
The magic banner should be either for one corsair unit or one spear unit. The corsairs has enough advantages as it is. If these changes are implemented there is no need for the sword/shield elf. Easier when it comes to
available miniatures also.

When it comes to the repeater crossbows and normal longbows then the prize should be 5 pts.
The repeaters and spear guys should be split. The repeaters get champ(BS+1) for 6 pts, musician 6 pts
and standard 12 pts

Also agree about the Dark Riders and Shades. There is no reason at all that DE and HE should be the only races paying for expensive missile champions.

Not necessary, but fits the fluff.
I think the poisoned crossbows for 2 pts only should be available to the champion of repeater warriors, shades and dark riders. A nice upgrade in the same way as the empires handgunners. Units of poisoned repeaters is too much.

Cauldron of Blood

Red Fury range increased to 24".

An attacking unit benefits from the Red Fury for the remainder of the current player's turn, if it started its movement within range of the Cauldron.

Hits from shooting are randomized between the Cauldron and the Guardians as per the standard warmachine rules.


Range 24” and randomized shooting is enough, but needed. Now it is way too useless if not against very specific armies.

Beastmaster - M6 WS5 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I6 A2 Ld8 - Points/model: 60 (Hero)

Weapons: Whip (hand weapon).

Options:
- May choose an additional hand weapon (+4 pts) or a spear if mounted (+2 pts).
- May wear light armour (+2 pts).
- May ride either a Cold One (+26 pts), a Dark Pegasus (+55 pts) or a Manticore (+190 pts). A Manticore mount will use up an additional Hero slot. Alternatively, he can be mounted in a Cold One Chariot included as a special choice, replacing one of the crew.
- May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic item lists, with a maximum total value of 25 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Beastmaster (Any monster within 12" of a Beastmaster may re-roll any failed Leadership test; Any unit within 12" of the Beastmaster (note, that this includes himself or any unit he is in) may re-roll any failed Stupidity test caused by Cold Ones; Harpies within 12" of a Beastmaster may use the Beastmaster's Leadership as if the Beastmaster was the army General; If a Beastmaster is slain whilst riding a monster, the monster does not need to take a Monster Reaction test and will fight on as normal).


I prefer the standard Beastmaster with M+1 for 40 pts. Nice with something cheap in the list.
Just make it possible for him to take the equipment you mentioned and add sea dragon cloak and dark steed to the list. And forbid magic armour. I hope you realise that you have given all beastmasters armour of darkness.

When it comes to the special rules my personal view is that he should only be able to influence monsters or mounts he is personally in charge of. Range 0” in other words. Only the won’t flip out rule will remain.
When handling cold ones he gets a reroll for stupidity, but if in a unit of cold ones, no reroll.
Also all monsters or mounts get WS+1.

Harpies should not be able to be influenced what so ever. They are good enough.

Beastlord/Beasthero

In order to keep it simple, why not make a talisman called Beastmaster’s Whip for 20 pts that gives the beastmaster’s abilities to a lord or hero(no sorceress or assassin).



Second Priority Level

Executioners

Heavy armour instead of light armour.

I like the ‘cheap’ executioners, but many people want heavy armour, so I suppose a heavy armour option for 1 pt
is alright. Not mandatory heavy armour.

War Hydra

Apprentices have M6.

They should have it. Not necessary, but they really should.

Dark Magic

Word of Pain (errata) - May be cast into close combat.

Should have been there from the beginning.


Dark Sword (errata) - In addition to the given abilities, for every wound a model loses to the Dark Sword, its Leadership is decreased by one.

I actually think the leadership thingy was my idea. Anyway much better than before.

Armour of Living Death (errata) - The Armour of Living Death gives a 4+ armour save (instead of 5+), which can be combined with other armour as normal.

I really think this armour needs a total remaking. The actual abilities is not wrong if counting points for it, but
totally unsuitable for an elf. It is still a way too expensive piece compare to what you can have for the same points.


Armour of Eternal Servitude (errata) - Points: 60 -> 65 - In addition to the given abilities, the wearer heals one wound at the beginning of each of his turns, unless he's slain.

No. Too good. Just lower the points to 55 and make it a heavy armour. It is quite a good armour anyhow.

Armour of Darkness (errata) - This armour does not include a shield.

Better, but with the blood armour it isn’t really necessary. I would prefer a total remake. How about this instead.
All opponents that attack the wearer will fight with WS-1 and I-1. Counts as heavy armour. 20 pts.

Blood Armour (clarification) - The Blood Armour save is improved up to a maximum of 1+, which can be combined with other armour as normal.

I hope you mean that the combined save from all armours is 1+. If not I would say no. And to be honest this armour should only gain save from wounds made in close combat. The description really imply that.

Ring of Hotek (errata) - Range increased to 10".

Yes! Now it is a usable item, even if it will still be hard to use.

Ring of Darkness (errata) - Points: 45 -> 50 - Does not remain in play, instead lasts until the start of the wearer's next Magic phase.

Good, but I don’t think you need to raise the points.

Witchbrew (clarification) - The effect of Witchbrew remains, even if the Hag has been killed.

As it should be. Extremely sloppy explanation on this item.


Third Priority Level

Hag Queen - M5 WS7 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I8 A3 Ld9 - Points/model: 105 (Hero)

Weapons: Two poisoned hand weapons.

Options:
- May choose magic items (with the exception of magical missile weapons and magic armour) from the Common or Dark Elf magic item lists or upgrades from the Temple of Khaine lists, with a maximum total value of 50 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves; Poisoned attacks; Frenzy; Dance of Doom (5+ Ward save); Can join units of Witch Elves; Cannot join units except Witch Elves; Cannot be the army's General.

Simply make her a normal hero with the same stats, frenzy and two poisoned hand weapons. Maybe +30 pts.
The options you mentioned seems good. Skip dance of doom and not being the general. Then people can have a
themed army.

Assassin

Special Rules:
In the turn he is first revealed, a hidden Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. He does not have this ability during any subsequent turns.

This would make the killing blow in temple of khaine almost pointless. He usually don’t survive more than one round. Give him two poisoned hand weapons instead for the same cost and remove the Dark Venom in the list.

Artifacts and Skills

Dance of Doom (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25

Touch of Death (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25 - Assassin only.

These are alright with me, but make the touch of death a poison instead to prevent combos with the other poisons.

Deathdealer - 50 points - Assassin only. The Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. When all attacks are directed to a single model, the Killing Blow succeeds on 5+ rather than 6+.

Too good.

Cold Ones

Cold Ones are subject to Blood Frenzy. When the unit wins a round of close combat, the Cold Ones have 2 Attacks for the rest of the game. Note, that this is unique to the Dark Elven Cold Ones, reflecting the brutal training of the Beastmasters, rearing these fearsome mounts for battle.

Just use the old rule that states after first combat, no more stupidity.

Black Guard

Points/model: 16 -> 15.

Options:
- The Master may choose up to 25 points of magic items from the Common or Dark Elf list.

The 25 pts for the champ seems alright, but if 15 pts for a Black Guard then drop hatred and let anyone that wants it take the hatred banner or 16 pts and let them have eternal hatred(all rounds).
Just another discussion about shields and halberd. Why do some units get a shield, but not others.
IMO halberd units should never have shields, but without being a historical master in this subject this is just my personal view. I find it annoying that some units are punished.

Banner of Hatred - 25 points - The unit carrying the banner hates all enemies.

This banner should have been in the list from the beginning. Very suitable for the Darkies.

Executioner's Axe (errata) - In addition to the given abilities, the wielder gains the Killing Blow special ability.

Yes. I think this is a good idea without seing it in action.

Crimson Death (errata) - Points: 35 -> 30.

Nice to be able to combined it with blood armour. Still it is not a cheesy combo.

Hydra Banner (errata) - Points: 80 -> 75

Nice to give the Black Guard’s more options. Give them more worth.



Fourth Priority Level

City Guard - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 9 (Core)

Unit Size: 10+.

Weapons and Armour: Hand weapon, spear, light armour.

Options:
- Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/model.
- Some models in the unit may replace spears with repeater crossbows for +4 pts/model.
- Upgrade one Guard to a Musician for +5 pts.
- Upgrade one Guard to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.
- Upgrade one Guard to a Guard Commander (+1 A) for +10 pts.

Special Rules:
Hate High Elves, Mixed Formation.

Mixed Formation: Models in a City Guard unit may be armed with either spears or repeater crossbows and you can mix both types within the same unit. If any models are to be armed with repeater crossbows, the entire first rank has to be armed this way. Models in the second and following ranks are always armed with spears. During the game, remove casualities from the back as normal, it is assumed, that the spear-armed models step forward and discard their spears to pick up the repeater crossbows of the fallen first rankers. Only when all the spear-armed models have been killed, can casualities be taken from the repeater crossbow-armed models in the first rank. If the Guard Commander dies, a spear-armed model steps forward and picks up the repeater crossbow in the same way.


If a spear and shield elf costs 9 pts and a rxb 5 pts then let this unit pay for both. 14 pts for a fully armed elf.
No special rules or anything. Just more equipment. Compared to the normal RXB unit the champ has 1A instead
And compared to normal spears no magic banner. Price for the upgrades should be 6,12,12 instead of the 5,10 and 10.


Chilblade 25->20 pts. Possible to combo with shield of ghrond and make it more of a choice.

Crystal of Midnight 25->20 pts. Not good enough for its points.

New Magic Ideas

Magic Weapons

Assassin's Dagger - 50 points - The wielder always strikes first, even if his opponent charged that turn. In addition the wielder gains the Killing Blow special ability.

We already have an assassin.

Twin Swords of Khaine - 35 points - The wielder is armed with two weapons and gets the same benefits and drawbacks as if armed with an additional handweapon. In addition, the wielder gets +1 Strength.

My idea is to remake Heartseeker to twin blades with the reroll to hit ability for 30 pts. Your version seems to cheap.
Anyhow two magic weapons is very fluffy for the Dark Ones.

Talismans

Shield Amulet - 30 points - The bearer has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical attacks.

It would be nice with a 4+ ward, but I think that we have quite good talismans already and what is lacking is some bound spells, arcane items and banners.

Insignia of Authority - 25 points - Army General only. Friendly units within 18" (instead of the usual 12") may use the bearer's Leadership value.

Do we really need this one?

Enchanted Items

Staff of Slavery - 45 points - Bound Spell. Power Level 4. The Staff may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the staff itself. The Staff of Slavery contains the Dominion spell described in the Dark Magic spells on page 17. Each time the spell is dispelled, roll a D6. On a roll of 1, the power of the Staff has been exhausted and it may not be used for the rest of the battle.

Ring of Doom - 35 points - Bound Spell. Power Level 3. The Ring may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the staff itself. The Ring of Doom contains the Doombolt spell described in the Dark Magic spells on page 17.

I think DE needs a couple of bound spells more, but I would like them to be something else than just the standard ones in chains. Point wise they both look alright though.

Potion of Strength - 20 points - One use only. At the beginning of any of his turns, the bearer may quaff the Potion to gain +2 Strength until the end of that turn.

A classic is back and me like it. +3S would have been too much. You can still get a chariot smasher and something that cracks the shell on the bloody steamwagon..

Arcane Items

Wand of Darkness - 50 points - During each of your own Magic Phases, the wand allows the Dark Elf player to remove one dice from the opponent's pile of Dispel dice and add it to his own Power dice pile.

Spellcall Familiar - 25 points - The familiar's owner can swap one spell for any one spell from the chosen lore instead of the first spell of that lore when generating spells.

Both of these are too much HE. To much likeness will corrupt us.

Sphere of Corruption - 25 points - One use only. Upon casting a spell, the bearer can invoke the powers resting within the Sphere of Corruption before rolling the Power dice. The spell counts as being cast with Irresistible Force, if at least a single six (as opposed to the double six normally needed) is rolled on the Power dice. A Miscast still takes precedence over an Irresistible Force result.

This was fun one. It gets my support. Inverted Ring of Hotek.

Magic Standards

Banner of Power - 75 points - The banner adds +3 Power dice to your pile in each of your own Magic phases.

Too HE.

Banner of Relentless Assault - 50 points - The unit carrying the banner has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical missiles.

I really dislike all things in every list that counter a weakness in the list. The items should enhance the race special advantages and/or behavior.

Banner of Swift Killing - 35 points - The unit carrying the banner has their base move increased by 1".

We already have a extra move banner.

Blood Banner - 20 points - One use only. The unit carrying the banner automatically ignores their first failed Stupidity test.

See banner of relentless assault.

And last a small idea of my own. Why not make our first spell similar to the skaven spell with possibility to
boost it. 5+ d6 hits and 9+ 2D6 hits. It is still a rather mild spell, but gives the possibility to do some good(damage) when our other spells are of no use.


Da’Ghault Deceiver of the Damned[/b][/i]

[Unseen]

i think that list looks great, but i think there should be a new unit: slaves. i feel a unit of pow's, or slaves would be a great new unit used for cannon fodder (like lord yuerl or whatever his name is). and have options like:

pow's for freedom (similar to 40k last chancers) they fight for you but suffer from stupidity, or are slower and have decreased ws from shackles

Sacrifices, just like the little story in the de book, you can send the slaves free just to shoot them down, if successful the enimies army's leadership suffers a -1 penalty, if you fail and they make it across and may fight for the enemy (well, whats left of them)

well basically i think there should be slaves

unseen[/u]

[Thanee]

Spearmen should have spears for 1 pt (All S3,A1 troops should pay 1 pt for it).
The magic banner should be either for one corsair unit or one spear unit. The corsairs has enough advantages as it is. If these changes are implemented there is no need for the sword/shield elf. Easier when it comes to available miniatures also.

Well, after some comparisons I came to the conclusion, that the current Spearmen actually pay 1 point for their spears and 8 points for the basic model (with handweapon and light armour).

Only thing I did there was to reduce the base cost by one and make spears optional.

The repeaters and spear guys should be split. The repeaters get champ(BS+1) for 6 pts, musician 6 pts
and standard 12 pts

I could make it like the Dark Riders, giving two champion choices.

Not necessary, but fits the fluff.
I think the poisoned crossbows for 2 pts only should be available to the champion of repeater warriors, shades and dark riders. A nice upgrade in the same way as the empires handgunners. Units of poisoned repeaters is too much.

Really? I think it fits perfectly and too much? What about Skinks?

I prefer the standard Beastmaster with M+1 for 40 pts. Nice with something cheap in the list.
Just make it possible for him to take the equipment you mentioned and add sea dragon cloak and dark steed to the list. And forbid magic armour. I hope you realise that you have given all beastmasters armour of darkness.

Taking away the option for magic armour sounds reasonable after all, at least for the Beastmaster. SDC doesn't fit IMHO, as it is a Corsair thing. Only the most prestigious individuals will be able to get this. Dark Steed doesn't fit either - yes, they train them, but ride into battle? Nah!

Harpies should not be able to be influenced what so ever. They are good enough.

That's the bonus for taking an inferior character.

I like the cheap executioners, but many people want heavy armour, so I suppose a heavy armour option for 1 pt
is alright. Not mandatory heavy armour.

Mandatory heavy armour and no cost change, that's the way how it should be, as it gives them a fair cost and WYSIWYG.

Dark Sword (errata) - In addition to the given abilities, for every wound a model loses to the Dark Sword, its Leadership is decreased by one.

I actually think the leadership thingy was my idea. Anyway much better than before.

Very well possible!

Armour of Living Death (errata) - The Armour of Living Death gives a 4+ armour save (instead of 5+), which can be combined with other armour as normal.

I really think this armour needs a total remaking. The actual abilities is not wrong if counting points for it, but
totally unsuitable for an elf. It is still a way too expensive piece compare to what you can have for the same points.

Agreed.

Armour of Eternal Servitude (errata) - Points: 60 -> 65 - In addition to the given abilities, the wearer heals one wound at the beginning of each of his turns, unless he's slain.

No. Too good. Just lower the points to 55 and make it a heavy armour. It is quite a good armour anyhow.

Too good? C'mon! Regeneration is worse than a Ward save!

Blood Armour (clarification) - The Blood Armour save is improved up to a maximum of 1+, which can be combined with other armour as normal.

I hope you mean that the combined save from all armours is 1+. If not I would say no. And to be honest this armour should only gain save from wounds made in close combat. The description really imply that.

I mean it like it says there, 1+ and better possible. Otherwise the allowed stacking makes no sense. I don't see this as being particulary strong, either, as you have to deal some wounds (in close combat, forgot to add that - definitely agreed) prior to getting some use out of it and then having just a regular magic armour (almost everyone gets 1+ armour or even 1+ rerollable saves armour!), no way!

Hag Queen - M5 WS7 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I8 A3 Ld9 - Points/model: 105 (Hero)

Simply make her a normal hero with the same stats, frenzy and two poisoned hand weapons. Maybe +30 pts.
The options you mentioned seems good. Skip dance of doom and not being the general. Then people can have a
themed army.

A normal with the same stats? What logic would be behind that? She's a more experienced Witch Elf, not a crazed Noble. Allowing her as the General makes no sense to me, a frenzied Witch Elf can't be a General.

Assassin

Special Rules:
In the turn he is first revealed, a hidden Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. He does not have this ability during any subsequent turns.

This would make the killing blow in temple of khaine almost pointless. He usually don't survive more than one round.

Well, you can (reasonably) give him a 5+ Ward save now, and the Assassin is (or should be) surely more than a one shot killer.

Dance of Doom (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25

Touch of Death (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25 - Assassin only.

These are alright with me, but make the touch of death a poison instead to prevent combos with the other poisons.

What combos?

Deathdealer - 50 points - Assassin only. The Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. When all attacks are directed to a single model, the Killing Blow succeeds on 5+ rather than 6+.

Too good.

Wight Lords get 5+ Killing Blow all the time (no restriction like this), so why shouldn't the best Assassins in the whole Warhammer world not be able to be equally good at killing characters? BTW, I really like this idea, because it gives the Assassin the role of a single model killer instead of a rank-and-file killer supporting infantry dude.

Cold Ones

Cold Ones are subject to Blood Frenzy. When the unit wins a round of close combat, the Cold Ones have 2 Attacks for the rest of the game. Note, that this is unique to the Dark Elven Cold Ones, reflecting the brutal training of the Beastmasters, rearing these fearsome mounts for battle.

Just use the old rule that states after first combat, no more stupidity.

I want to connect the Stupidity with the Beastmaster, that's why I dropped that part (had it here in an earlier version).

Black Guard

Points/model: 16 -> 15.

Options:
- The Master may choose up to 25 points of magic items from the Common or Dark Elf list.

The 25 pts for the champ seems alright, but if 15 pts for a Black Guard then drop hatred and let anyone that wants it take the hatred banner or 16 pts and let them have eternal hatred(all rounds).

I think 15 points are about right for them.

City Guard - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 9 (Core)

If a spear and shield elf costs 9 pts and a rxb 5 pts then let this unit pay for both. 14 pts for a fully armed elf.
No special rules or anything. Just more equipment. Compared to the normal RXB unit the champ has 1A instead
And compared to normal spears no magic banner. Price for the upgrades should be 6,12,12 instead of the 5,10 and 10.

It's the point to have them be better trained (much like HE spearmen, just a different kind of training. We don't need another useless Lothern Sea Guard.

Chilblade 25->20 pts. Possible to combo with shield of ghrond and make it more of a choice.

Not sure about that, but maybe yes.

Crystal of Midnight 25->20 pts. Not good enough for its points.

Good idea! Agreed on that.

Assassin's Dagger - 50 points - The wielder always strikes first, even if his opponent charged that turn. In addition the wielder gains the Killing Blow special ability.

We already have an assassin.

True, but I definitely want a strike first weapon here (almost everyone has it and having none makes am mockery of elven Initiative) and killing blow seems to be a nice and fluffy addition.

Twin Swords of Khaine - 35 points - The wielder is armed with two weapons and gets the same benefits and drawbacks as if armed with an additional handweapon. In addition, the wielder gets +1 Strength.

My idea is to remake Heartseeker to twin blades with the reroll to hit ability for 30 pts. Your version seems to cheap.
Anyhow two magic weapons is very fluffy for the Dark Ones.

Too cheap? +1 Strength is 20 points, additional handweapon 4 or 6. I could make a Talisman that adds +1 Strength for 20 (or maybe 25) points. This one is much more restricted and surely not too cheap (rather too expensive )!

Shield Amulet - 30 points - The bearer has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical attacks.

It would be nice with a 4+ ward, but I think that we have quite good talismans already and what is lacking is some bound spells, arcane items and banners.

I also don't really think this is necessary.

Insignia of Authority - 25 points - Army General only. Friendly units within 18" (instead of the usual 12") may use the bearer's Leadership value.

Do we really need this one?

I think Dark Elves should have a good and very rigid leadership, therefore I wanted to include one item at least, that gives the Leader some bonus. This is also quite useful to counteract Stupidity in larger armies.

I think DE needs a couple of bound spells more, but I would like them to be something else than just the standard ones in chains. Point wise they both look alright though.

Bound items with spells tend to be taken from the appropriate lores. *shrug*

Wand of Darkness - 50 points - During each of your own Magic Phases, the wand allows the Dark Elf player to remove one dice from the opponent's pile of Dispel dice and add it to his own Power dice pile.

Spellcall Familiar - 25 points - The familiar's owner can swap one spell for any one spell from the chosen lore instead of the first spell of that lore when generating spells.

Both of these are too much HE. To much likeness will corrupt us.

The Wand of Darkness is designed as the direct opposite to the HE, yet in a similar way, which is pretty much, what we are. The familiars seem to fit to the more evil spellcasters and I really like it, because it gives the Dark Elves a little more control, which is the way how it should be for them in general (not only magic).

Magic Standards

Banner of Power - 75 points - The banner adds +3 Power dice to your pile in each of your own Magic phases.

Too HE.

As I said above, this one will probably go...

Banner of Relentless Assault - 50 points - The unit carrying the banner has a 4+ Ward save against any non-magical missiles.

I really dislike all things in every list that counter a weakness in the list. The items should enhance the race special advantages and/or behavior.

You got a point there, altho it seems like many items on various lists, do exactly this (lessen weaknesses). This particular item would allow better use of Executioners, Black Guard and Witch Elves.

Banner of Swift Killing - 35 points - The unit carrying the banner has their base move increased by 1".

We already have a extra move banner.

Yep, and one is not enough!

Blood Banner - 20 points - One use only. The unit carrying the banner automatically ignores their first failed Stupidity test.

See banner of relentless assault.

Same here, will probably go...

And last a small idea of my own. Why not make our first spell similar to the skaven spell with possibility to
boost it. 5+ d6 hits and 9+ 2D6 hits. It is still a rather mild spell, but gives the possibility to do some good(damage) when our other spells are of no use.

Because Skaven have a disadvantage to balance this!

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

unseen, while I agree that Slaves would be very fluffy, they would also be way too good. Dark Elves shall not have cheap expendable troops!

Bye
Thanee

[Da'ghault]

[quote="Thanee"]Spearmen should have spears for 1 pt (All S3,A1 troops should pay 1 pt for it).
The magic banner should be either for one corsair unit or one spear unit. The corsairs has enough advantages as it is. If these changes are implemented there is no need for the sword/shield elf. Easier when it comes to available miniatures also.

Well, after some comparisons I came to the conclusion, that the current Spearmen actually pay 1 point for their spears and 8 points for the basic model (with handweapon and light armour).

Only thing I did there was to reduce the base cost by one and make spears optional.


I do think the base cost for elves with light armour is 7(see RH), but it doesn't matter as long as the price for spear guy with shield is 9 pts.


The repeaters and spear guys should be split. The repeaters get champ(BS+1) for 6 pts, musician 6 pts
and standard 12 pts

I could make it like the Dark Riders, giving two champion choices.

BS+1 is enough.



Not necessary, but fits the fluff.
I think the poisoned crossbows for 2 pts only should be available to the champion of repeater warriors, shades and dark riders. A nice upgrade in the same way as the empires handgunners. Units of poisoned repeaters is too much.

Really? I think it fits perfectly and too much? What about Skinks?


Are we skinks?;) I prefer it for only 'characters' like
certain champions, heroes and lords to poison their repteaters.
So not just every dark elf has access to it. Poison is for the chosen ones.


I prefer the standard Beastmaster with M+1 for 40 pts. Nice with something cheap in the list.
Just make it possible for him to take the equipment you mentioned and add sea dragon cloak and dark steed to the list. And forbid magic armour. I hope you realise that you have given all beastmasters armour of darkness.

Taking away the option for magic armour sounds reasonable after all, at least for the Beastmaster. SDC doesn't fit IMHO, as it is a Corsair thing. Only the most prestigious individuals will be able to get this. Dark Steed doesn't fit either - yes, they train them, but ride into battle? Nah!


I'm still for the steed and sdc for making them have a decent, but not
extremely good save against missiles when mounted on some beast.
The cold ones look stupid and the manticore rider do have one.


Harpies should not be able to be influenced what so ever. They are good enough.

That's the bonus for taking an inferior character.

Still not agreeing.


I like the cheap executioners, but many people want heavy armour, so I suppose a heavy armour option for 1 pt
is alright. Not mandatory heavy armour.

Mandatory heavy armour and no cost change, that's the way how it should be, as it gives them a fair cost and WYSIWYG.

I think we will have to pay for the heavy armour.


Armour of Eternal Servitude (errata) - Points: 60 -> 65 - In addition to the given abilities, the wearer heals one wound at the beginning of each of his turns, unless he's slain.

No. Too good. Just lower the points to 55 and make it a heavy armour. It is quite a good armour anyhow.

Too good? C'mon! Regeneration is worse than a Ward save!


I meant your special rule. Regeneration now cost about 50 pts in other lists. Add heavy armour 4-6 pts. About 55 pts. Thats alright for me.
I know that regeneration should cost less than ward 4+, but I think we
have to follow the standard in this case.


Blood Armour (clarification) - The Blood Armour save is improved up to a maximum of 1+, which can be combined with other armour as normal.

I hope you mean that the combined save from all armours is 1+. If not I would say no. And to be honest this armour should only gain save from wounds made in close combat. The description really imply that.

I mean it like it says there, 1+ and better possible. Otherwise the allowed stacking makes no sense. I don't see this as being particulary strong, either, as you have to deal some wounds (in close combat, forgot to add that - definitely agreed) prior to getting some use out of it and then having just a regular magic armour (almost everyone gets 1+ armour or even 1+ rerollable saves armour!), no way!

Your way would mean that it would be possible to have -3-4 saves.
Way too good. The armour is good as it is. Maybe make it possible for 0+ save, but no more.


My daughter, the little banshee just woke up and my ward save of 5+ is not enough. Will continue later.

Da'Ghault Deceiver of the Damned[/i][/b]

[Thanee]

Some comments:

Spearmen with shield 9 points, that's what I did up there. So you think it's ok this way, or am I misreading ya!?

In RH the base cost for an elf with light armour was 7, but it seems to have been increased to 8. I lowered it back to 7.

The Beastmaster on Manticore model does not have a Sea Dragon cloak.

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

Blood Armour: What's the big problem with a negative save? You can get 0+/-1+ already with only an Enchanted Shield and mundane equipment!

You always fail on a 1, and you have to deal some damage before you get a decent save with the Blood Armour, unless you mix it with some other armour, which would make the Blood Armour useless compared to a regular heavy armour, if it were not fully stackable!

I absolutely agree, that it should only count wounds caused in close combat, tho!

Bye
Thanee

[Da'ghault]

[quote="Thanee"]Some comments:

Spearmen with shield 9 points, that's what I did up there. So you think it's ok this way, or am I misreading ya!?

It is ok. As it should be.

In RH the base cost for an elf with light armour was 7, but it seems to have been increased to 8. I lowered it back to 7.

I do not think it has increased. Base cost 7(with light armour).
Spear 2 pts. I think you could confirm this by also looking at the new
Wood elf list. 8 pts for a naked spear woody. I can't see any reason for
any different pricing depending on the type of elf.
As I said before all elfs and humans should have the spear troops price lowered to 1 pt.

The Beastmaster on Manticore model does not have a Sea Dragon cloak.


Well I can't swear that it is a sea dragon cloak, but it has scales on it.
It could a dragon cloak or maybe a salamander, but as long as it is scaled
then it is a sea dragon cloak for me.


Da'Ghault Deceiver of the Damned

[Da'ghault]

Hag Queen - M5 WS7 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I8 A3 Ld9 - Points/model: 105 (Hero)

Simply make her a normal hero with the same stats, frenzy and two poisoned hand weapons. Maybe +30 pts.
The options you mentioned seems good. Skip dance of doom and not being the general. Then people can have a
themed army.

A normal with the same stats? What logic would be behind that? She's a more experienced Witch Elf, not a crazed Noble. Allowing her as the General makes no sense to me, a frenzied Witch Elf can't be a General.


Maybe stats that you suggested, but as for the general. If not the Hag queen, who would lead them? A sorceress? A hero or lord that can't even
be in their unit because they are too afraid? It would make a true
Temple of Khaine army list impossible.


Assassin

Special Rules:
In the turn he is first revealed, a hidden Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. He does not have this ability during any subsequent turns.

This would make the killing blow in temple of khaine almost pointless. He usually don't survive more than one round.

Well, you can (reasonably) give him a 5+ Ward save now, and the Assassin is (or should be) surely more than a one shot killer.


He still can have both with your suggestions. Two Poisoned hand weapons is enough for a discount on this fellow.

Dance of Doom (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25

Touch of Death (errata) - Points: 30 -> 25 - Assassin only.

These are alright with me, but make the touch of death a poison instead to prevent combos with the other poisons.

What combos?

Manbane and Touch of Death. I can't see no reason for taking anything else with this kind of points on them.


Deathdealer - 50 points - Assassin only. The Assassin gains the Killing Blow special ability. When all attacks are directed to a single model, the Killing Blow succeeds on 5+ rather than 6+.

Too good.

Wight Lords get 5+ Killing Blow all the time (no restriction like this), so why shouldn't the best Assassins in the whole Warhammer world not be able to be equally good at killing characters? BTW, I really like this idea, because it gives the Assassin the role of a single model killer instead of a rank-and-file killer supporting infantry dude.

He will statistically kill a character every time with this thing. That is too
good in my eyes. Wight lords have lower I(can charge though),
lower WS(4+ to hit if not having the special banner) and only 3A(Am I wrong here?).


Black Guard

Points/model: 16 -> 15.

Options:
- The Master may choose up to 25 points of magic items from the Common or Dark Elf list.

The 25 pts for the champ seems alright, but if 15 pts for a Black Guard then drop hatred and let anyone that wants it take the hatred banner or 16 pts and let them have eternal hatred(all rounds).

I think 15 points are about right for them.


You are probably right. They are T3 with low armour save.


City Guard - M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 - Points/model: 9 (Core)

If a spear and shield elf costs 9 pts and a rxb 5 pts then let this unit pay for both. 14 pts for a fully armed elf.
No special rules or anything. Just more equipment. Compared to the normal RXB unit the champ has 1A instead
And compared to normal spears no magic banner. Price for the upgrades should be 6,12,12 instead of the 5,10 and 10.

It's the point to have them be better trained (much like HE spearmen, just a different kind of training. We don't need another useless Lothern Sea Guard.


Lothern costs 16 pts. That is too much. 14 pts for this combination is
a resonable price. I would take them.


Twin Swords of Khaine - 35 points - The wielder is armed with two weapons and gets the same benefits and drawbacks as if armed with an additional handweapon. In addition, the wielder gets +1 Strength.

My idea is to remake Heartseeker to twin blades with the reroll to hit ability for 30 pts. Your version seems to cheap.
Anyhow two magic weapons is very fluffy for the Dark Ones.

Too cheap? +1 Strength is 20 points, additional handweapon 4 or 6. I could make a Talisman that adds +1 Strength for 20 (or maybe 25) points. This one is much more restricted and surely not too cheap (rather too expensive )!


See it as +1A and +1S minus something for being with two hands.
25+20-5=40 pts. That would of course make my suggestion too cheap also.







I think DE needs a couple of bound spells more, but I would like them to be something else than just the standard ones in chains. Point wise they both look alright though.

Bound items with spells tend to be taken from the appropriate lores. *shrug*


You are right, but I still would like something new.



And last a small idea of my own. Why not make our first spell similar to the skaven spell with possibility to
boost it. 5+ d6 hits and 9+ 2D6 hits. It is still a rather mild spell, but gives the possibility to do some good(damage) when our other spells are of no use.

Because Skaven have a disadvantage to balance this!


They get wounded on a one, but for the same casting cost they do
S5 instead of S3 hits. Just an idea though.


A possible chaneg to the +d3 cr banner is having it working all the time for 50 pts. Still only on the charge though. Wouldn't unbalance it too much. You don't do many charges in a game.

Da'Ghault Deceiver of the Damned[/i]

[Thanee]

Hag Queen: I see your point, but this would allow to make very weird army combinations. I'd rather have it this way and probably have an Appendix list, where she can lead a true Temple of Khaine style army.

Assassin: Manbane and Touch of Death is good, but somewhat overlapping. Both are still good seperate choices combined with the Rune of Khaine, or even with the Dance of Doom, to give the Assassin a better chance to survive. There's also the option to go for Blade of Ruin or Heartseeker and Touch of Death or even Deathdealer. With the recent changes (see above) you could also combine Chill Blade, Dark Venom and Ring of Hotek. I clearly don't see Manbane and Touch of Death as the only reasonable choice! BTW, poisoned handweapons would take away from Killing Blow, as some of your hits won't even get a chance to kill the target outright, and would make Dark Venom completely obsolete (I just changed it slightly to make it a viable choice compared to the rest).

Deathdealer: Yes, he will have a good chance to kill a character. That's the point! And the Assassin should be better at that (altho only slightly) than a Wight Lord (who is a lot tougher). He has only 3 attacks, tho, 4 with additional handweapon. And you still can have a successful Ward save or just slightly below average dice rolls, and then your pretty Assassin has done nothing and is dead with only 2 Wounds and nothing to protect him! You also have to get him into contact with the target in the first place.

City Guard: I see no reason, why to make this unit completely different, than it ever was.

Twin Swords of Khaine: -10 points (rather than -5) for being two handed is appropriate IMHO, that's how I got to the 35 points.

About the Warp Lightning versus Chillwind, Chillwind also negates shooting!

The Standard of Slaugther is better the original way, as it also works defensively (counter-offensively).

Bye
Thanee

[Da'ghault]

[quote="Thanee"]Hag Queen: I see your point, but this would allow to make very weird army combinations. I'd rather have it this way and probably have an Appendix list, where she can lead a true Temple of Khaine style army.


Alright see your point, but please remove the dance. Just 50 pts magic or temple of khaine items.


Assassin: Manbane and Touch of Death is good, but somewhat overlapping.


Very minor overlap. Instead of a wound it will kill.


Both are still good seperate choices combined with the Rune of Khaine, or even with the Dance of Doom,


I don't think a 5+ save is a good choice on a W2 character. IMO.

to give the Assassin a better chance to survive. There's also the option to go for Blade of Ruin or


You can't combine magic weapons with killing blow. There is something in rulebook that forbids that. Can't remember the page though.


Heartseeker and Touch of Death or even Deathdealer. With the recent changes (see above) you could also combine Chill Blade, Dark Venom and Ring of Hotek.


Same here. You can't use poison on magic weapons.


I clearly don't see Manbane and Touch of Death as the only reasonable choice! BTW, poisoned handweapons would take away from Killing Blow, as some of your hits won't even get a chance to kill the target outright, and would make Dark Venom completely obsolete (I just changed it slightly to make it a viable choice compared to the rest).

Deathdealer: Yes, he will have a good chance to kill a character. That's the point! And the Assassin should be better at that (altho only slightly) than a Wight Lord (who is a lot tougher). He has only 3 attacks, tho, 4 with additional handweapon. And you still can have a successful Ward save or just slightly below average dice rolls, and then your pretty Assassin has done nothing and is dead with only 2 Wounds and nothing to protect him! You also have to get him into contact with the target in the first place.


The only thing about the 5+ killing blow for assassins I agree about is that I disagree with you.


City Guard: I see no reason, why to make this unit completely different, than it ever was.


If we are talking about fluff, this unit is totally non DE. Anyway this
unit really don't upset if we don't get it.


Twin Swords of Khaine: -10 points (rather than -5) for being two handed is appropriate IMHO, that's how I got to the 35 points.


And 30 for Crimson Death.


About the Warp Lightning versus Chillwind, Chillwind also negates shooting!


1d6/2d6 S3 negates shooting compared to 1d6/2d6 S5 and 1 hits caster
for the same cost is comparable. Just an idea though. I won't try to convince you.


The Standard of Slaugther is better the original way, as it also works defensively (counter-offensively).

I can't see how the change made it worse. It just remains in play for
+15 pts.


Da'Ghault Deceiver of the Damned

[Thanee]

Assassin: Well...

Magic Weapons and Killing Blow: Really? That would surprise me, if there were such a rule!

Dark Venom: See original post. I've included it after you first replied to it.

Crimson Death: Indeed!

Warp Lightning: Yes, it is compareable. But Warp Lightning is not the default spell of the Skaven thus it is bound to be slightly better!

Standard of Slaughter: You are right of course, as the Standard of Slaugther only works on a charge anyways, I had forgotten that part!

Bye
Thanee

[Da'ghault]

[quote="Thanee"]Assassin: Well...

Magic Weapons and Killing Blow: Really? That would surprise me, if there were such a rule!


It's a two-step thing. See page 152 about magic weapons and special rules and then look up killing blow on page 112 under special rules.

Dark Venom: See original post. I've included it after you first replied to it.

You changed it! How devious.


Warp Lightning: Yes, it is compareable. But Warp Lightning is not the default spell of the Skaven thus it is bound to be slightly better!


Forgot about not being the first one. I withdraw my demands.
Although as that is the only spell the warlocks can use then it could
almost count as the first one.


Da'Ghault Deceiver of the Damned

[Thanee]

Uh, I don't have a rulebook here, will look it up, as soon as I can.

Bye
Thanee