Charging challenges

[Furiouscado]

I'm reading the BRB and I can't find a definite solution to these scenarios. I have an idea of what would happen, but I want to see what you guys have to say about it.


Scenario:

Vampire Lord on zombie dragon charges a unit and gets challenged by a character (a champion wouldn't last the turn so it would pretty much have to be a juicy character). The challenge is unresolved, meaning it is still going on. The following turn, the zombie dragon gets flank charged by a chariot. In the BRB it says if the character is the only one there, it takes all the impact hits.. makes sense.. But it never has anything about pre-existing challenges because in the challenge section it says "no other models may attack them or the mount, even if their bases are touching."

[Bad beast]

had this happen in a tournament before, the way we played it was the impact hits go off, but the rest of the chariot does not get to fight as the challenge is still going on

[Jayferd22]

had this happen in a tournament before, the way we played it was the impact hits go off, but the rest of the chariot does not get to fight as the challenge is still going on

This sounds like the perfect way to resolve this as the impact hits make sense, but it doesn't make sense for anything else to be able to take part in the fight.

[Crawd]

If I remember correctly, the impact hits are made before the challenge declaration.

Because I know that a hero on a chariot that declares a challenge, the impact hits goes before and doesn't count in the challenge.

[Furiouscado]

If I remember correctly, the impact hits are made before the challenge declaration.

Because I know that a hero on a chariot that declares a challenge, the impact hits goes before and doesn't count in the challenge.

This isn't the issue. In the impact hits section it says it goes off before challenges, but this would have been a preexisting challenge from the previous turn.

[Tacklbry]

We always treat challenges as needing to be "renewed" each turn. So In your scentario, the impact hits would occur, but that would be all. If a challenge is not renewed, then the combat resorts to regular battle order. (this is probably a long standing house rule, but like several of them, we have used them so long I thought it was in the rule book)

As an aside, that would have to be one beefy character to survive the battle with a Vamplord and Dragon.

[Linda lobsta defenda]

The chariot charges, cant do impact as the guy is in a challenge. So nothing happens.

[Bounce]

Can a lone model challenege when attacking a unit? This seems a sort of unfair way of keeping a unit held up, Run one hero in to combat challenge and then you can't die?

[Azure]

You can die... to your challenger and if not the challenge will most likely be over because someone will die!

-Rex

p.s. But yes, challenging can be a very effective way to slow down units.

[Minsc]

You can still break from a challenge due to the usuall combat-resolution.

Say a Lord charges into a Hero in a RnFblock.
The Lord deals 1 wound to the Hero, but it surives.
The Lord has 1 CR, but he's up against 3 ranks, standard and outnumber.
He looses combat by 4, and is likely to run away, and getting run over.

Even if the Lord do kill the Hero, he can get a maximum overkill CR by 5, and would loose against the 3 ranks, standard and outnumber, because he doesn't have a musician with him.

Etc, etc...

[Dalamar]

On champion alone, big enough lord character can rack up to 6 CR (1 wound and 5 overkill wounds) which makes him win by 1... whooping result and doing 5 overkill wounds is very unlikely unless your hero is geared for it (d6 wounds weapon or some such)
Of course barring d6 wounds weapon, if a lord can deal 6 wounds... he'll be better off killing RnF models, that's why champions are usually the ones issuing the challenge to protect the unit.

[Furiouscado]

The chariot charges, cant do impact as the guy is in a challenge. So nothing happens.

Just to play devil's advocate.. On page 77 it says no other models can "attack" them. Would that really apply to a chariot just barging through the the circle created to watch the heros fight? Granted once the chariot smashes into the enemy he wouldn't get to attack, but i don't think impact hits are considered attacks.

[Ant]

I agree with Furiouscado and Bad Beast. Nowhere does it say impact hits are attacks, impact hits are just "caused". So the chariot would get impact hits against the character.

Interestingly, the rules contradict themselves in a similar but slightly different scenario. It says impact hits are resolved before challenges are declared, but in the challenges section says impact hits from a character on a chariot who charged that turn can only hit the unit. If you are charging a unit of 3 ogres with a butcher these 2 rules contradict since you work out the impact hits first, randomising, then a challenge is declared and the impact hits which have already happened can now only go on the unit!

[Dalamar]

Interestingly, the rules contradict themselves in a similar but slightly different scenario. It says impact hits are resolved before challenges are declared, but in the challenges section says impact hits from a character on a chariot who charged that turn can only hit the unit. If you are charging a unit of 3 ogres with a butcher these 2 rules contradict since you work out the impact hits first, randomising, then a challenge is declared and the impact hits which have already happened can now only go on the unit!

There's no contradiction in this point as impact hits caused before challenge is made go normally into unit/character, while impact hits cause after challenge is declared go into unit only.
Of course if character and chariot charge on the same turn (or character on the chariot), then the impacts will always hit before challenges.
The rule is there for situations where chariot charges in subsequent rules after challenge was declared.

[Hali]

I would have said that Charging into a challenge wouldn't be possible as the fighters within the challenge are not viable targets for a charge. From a logic point of view, who sees a challenge in action, spurs a chariot into it and then sits back and watches the show like everyone else?

They're not a viable close combat target so the charge shouldn't be declared until after the challenge has been resolved.

[Lac.desariel]

I agree with the last post,

you can only charge into combat where you are able to see combat, engage the enemy and are in range.

If your charging the challenge the you dont forfil the above, because you cant engage the enemy.

[Entreri]

Vito last 2 posts!
There is nobody in base to base contact that's allowed to attack, so nobody should be able to charge a challenge being fought, untill it's over.

cheers.

[Hiss]

If your charging the challenge the you dont forfil the above, because you cant engage the enemy

Where did you see that?
You can't attack, not engage a challenge, if it's the same for you then:
you cannot charge with mundane weapon a HE with a Folariath's robe ?

So imho you can charge a challenge but not attack that's all, still you bring rank and banners...etc for the result of fight.

Nowhere does it say impact hits are attacks

True, and the chariot can go through a challenge cause stupidity or fleeing ...
But as you make hits with impact it's difficult to said there's no attack here as the only way to make a hit it's by attacking first.

[Hali]

A charge is the move used to initiate combat, and without the possibilty of initiating combat that charge shouldn't be valid.

As the rules don't take this into account you really have to think of it from a battlefield perspective, and something tells me a unit's not going to charge in to simply to see who wins when there's a battle going on.

[Ehakir]

What you do:

1. Declare a charge; this is possible (assuming the chariot isn't stupid ), as you are in range, and you are able to bring models in btb contact. It is very obvious that the bases are able to touch each other, and therefore, you have btb contact.

2. Impact hits, before challenges are declared. Now, this is the interesting part, as the BRB says that (1st + 2nd paragraph, pg 77) no other models may attack the characters involved in the challenge, and that the presence of two characters engaged in a challenge may stop other models from fighting, if they are only in btb with the enemy character who is involved in the challenge.

So, as it is an ongoing challenge, no other models may RAW attack the characters, even if it would be unavoidable in real life. Remember that WHFB is a FANTASY game. The only benefit would be a flank/banner bonus if the chariot is mounted by a character/bsb or has US 5+.

End of story

[Crawd]

I agree with Ehakir, I must admit that I didn't see it like that but explained like this, it fits.

[Linda lobsta defenda]

I believe that the intent of the challenge rules is to have nothing be able to attack in in any fashion. And as Ehakir so kindly pointed out with his page references.

[Drainial]

But surely until the charactors are in the chalange they are fair game for the chariot, as you have to declare the chalange again each time they must technicly not be in a chalange untill its made. If the impact hits come first then they should count, its not so much a case of the chariot driving into a chalange but rather the two are apart and taking a breather, then one of them gets runover, then if they are still alive they meat again.

[Linda lobsta defenda]

You do not challenge again, a challenge lasts until one person is dead or has broken. So no they do not break apart and take a breather.

[Gastronauticon]

So what is the consensus here? How does this affect the actual declaration of chargers/stupidity moves? I can think of situations where the +1 CR from a no-other-effect flank charge from a chariot may come in handy.

To clarify: Is a single character fighting a challenge a viable target for a charge (or Stupidity/Enemy In The Way-move) in the first place? Even if no impact hits are caused that is...

Sorry if I am slow on the uptake.