Flying charges and forests

Have a question about the Warhammer rules? Ask them here!

Moderator: The Dread Knights

Post Reply
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Flying charges and forests

Post by Dalamar »

There's a discussion on another forum I'm attending (could link it but it's in Polish so no point :P) about flying chargers... we can't get into any specific agreement so here goes, maybe big heads around here can come up with a solution ;)

Unit A is a flying unit, it declares a charge at unit B which is standing inside woods but within 2" so is within line of sight

Unit B declares Flee and runs out of the wood on the other side of it

Unit A:
a) has to pursue with its ground movement and ends up in the middle of the forest
b) can pursue with its flying movement and therefore flies over the forest catching unit B

Rulebook doesn't state when you choose mode of movement for charges...
And actually in Flying Charges section on page 68 it doesn't say *anything* about possibility of charges other than by flying, which would imply that flying units can't charge into forests (making the above example null and void).

soooo... which solution would be the correct one? And also as a side note, which solution would you use in a game?
User avatar
Sulla
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 2261
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:56 am
Location: Flying my manticore 'Bloodmaw', looking for prey.

Post by Sulla »

Surely a flying charge at a unit in a forest would have been illegal since you could never complete it?

If so, then your charge (not pursuit since you haven't broken anything in combat) must be completed on foot?
User avatar
Bad beast
Malekith's Personal Guard
Posts: 857
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:46 am

Post by Bad beast »

my understanding of it is as follows

he doesn't move until you have completed your flee move, since you fled outside of the woods, he has sufficent movement to get to you since he can now fly at you, and he catches you, should your flee move not put you outside the woods he must make the charge move on foot thus likely not catching you (as only pegasus knights have a ground movement of more then 2 or 3 inches)

however, most times that a unit is in a forest it's rather silly to flee from a charging unit as they for the most part can't reach you unless they are directly outside the trees
Fr0 wrote: The evil Dr. Henry McCoy as usual, has a firm grasp on the rule.
User avatar
Zakath the slaughterer
Master of Puppets
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:22 am
Location: Suomi Finland

Post by Zakath the slaughterer »

I agree wuth Bad Beast. And yes, flying units can charge on foot.

Bad Beast wrote:as only pegasus knights have a ground movement of more then 2 or 3 inches
Forgot Dragons, Manticores, Harpies and Dark Pegasi? ;)
Master of puppets I'm pulling your strings/
Twisting your mind and smashing your dreams/
Blinded by me, you cant see a thing/
Just call my name, `cause Ill hear you scream
Dark Alliance
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured
Posts: 9741
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: In the paintshop

Post by Dark Alliance »

With my UKGT Ref head on...

You can only declare a charge if you can legally complete it. Consequently, as the target is in a wood you have to use ground movement. If the unit flees beyond the wood, you won't catch it unless your ground movement reaches it.
User avatar
Thanee
Rending Star
Rending Star
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:10 am
Location: Germany

Post by Thanee »

Yep, you have to decide on the mode of movement when you declare the charge, basically.

When you think about it visually... the pegasus knights (or whoever it is) charges towards the woods, staying on the ground as they know they won't be able to get through it with their wings spread out. As they storm forward, the scouts hidden between the trees decide that it is the better idea to not stay their ground and flee. The knights now do not suddenly jump up and start flying, they continue with their (ground-based) charge, of course.

Bye
Thanee
User avatar
Xerasi
Highborn
Posts: 716
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 3:45 pm
Location: Kgs Lyngby - Denmark => Sunny CA

Post by Xerasi »

I agree with DA and Thanee...

It's the same as declaring a charge with a flyer, the target flees, and you elect to use ground movement, thus not being baited out of place... iirc this debate came out in the beginning of 7th ed, and the answer/solution was that you had to declare what kind of movement you would be using during the charge.
DoW 2/2.25k W-L-D: 22 - 4 - 3
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Post by Dalamar »

The problem is "during charge" means exactly when?
When you declare the charge
or
When you move chargers (which means you already know how far the charged unit fled)

But if what Dark Alliance said is what GT rules are, then I think problem solved ;)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Dark Alliance
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured
Posts: 9741
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: In the paintshop

Post by Dark Alliance »

Dude... during the charge doesn't mean anything. The overriding principle is you cannot declare a charge you cannot legally complete.

Simple.

End of.
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Post by Dalamar »

Oh and I agree with you completely, just trying to relay the discussion from another forum. I'll let them know the resolution over here, maybe it will help them make up their minds ;)
User avatar
Cadeyrn
Shade
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:05 pm

Post by Cadeyrn »

@Bad and Thanee;

I agree with your interpretation on principal, but I've had this issue come up quite a few times. Could you reference someplace in the BRB that your basing this on?

also, what if I declare two charges on said unit, the first with a war hydra, the second with harpies. Say that the target flees from the hydra, out of the woods. Now when it's time to charge with the harpies, they are no longer in the woods. You wouldn't imply that I now have to walk the harpies at them because the initial charge was into the woods would you?

Or what about the opposite. My harpies are 3" away from a unit, but that unit flees and ends up 7" away, but IN woods. Would you imply that because I intended to "fly" as my initial charge, that they are now safe because I can't fly into woods, even if my ground travel would catch them?


While it makes a lot of sense that you would either travel on foot, or fly depending on the initial charge, but not be able to choose after reactions, I'm not sure which rules directly support that.
Dark Alliance
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured
Posts: 9741
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: In the paintshop

Post by Dark Alliance »

Read the answer previous.

You cannot declare a charge you cannot legally complete. Core rule and principal.

As for your Harpy example, that is a totally different situation, the outcome of which is covered in the rule book under flyers.
User avatar
Cadeyrn
Shade
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:05 pm

Post by Cadeyrn »

I guess I'm not clear on what part of the original questions you think is an illegial move? There's nothing that says flyers can't enter woods, only that they cannot "take off or land" in woods. Therefore if the OP's question involves a flyer that is within 2x of it's normal movement (not 20" flying) then it would be a legal charge declaration would it not?
User avatar
Rork
Lord of Khorne
Lord of Khorne
Posts: 8432
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: Leading the revolution (and in the chat).

Post by Rork »

It can use its ground movement, as has been stated by Thanee. You just can't fly in.
Image

"Rork.. a wonderful guy :)" - Linda Lobsta Defenda

+++ Team Mulligans +++
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Post by Dalamar »

You missed the point of the question but it doesn't matter :P
the answer is: if target is in forest you have to charge on the ground, and if the target flees you have to keep going on the ground.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Post by Calisson »

Fully agree
User avatar
Jayferd22
Executioner
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 4:52 pm
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Post by Jayferd22 »

I agree.... A further point to make is that if the unit flees out of the back of the woods you can no longer see them, which would make your aerial charge meaningless as you can't charge overtop of woods with flyers. I agree, charge on ground
The time for critical thinking is becoming critical I think
Post Reply