Basic leadership and stubborn...
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- Malekith's psychologist
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Basic leadership and stubborn...
Hi all, probably this topic has come up before, but i seem to be too clumsy with the search bar or something, so my question is:
Is it true that subborn units can only use their "stubbornness" with their basic Ld and not the general's or some other character's? For example dwarf hammerers with a Lord can use Ld 10 but if they have a break test at -3 they only get stubborn at Ld9, not 10?
Is it in the rulebook or any FAQ that can confirm this? I usually play against dwarves and this issue could change things a bit, as my opponent tends to roll 10s quite often but has been saved by a general nearby...
Thanx.
Is it true that subborn units can only use their "stubbornness" with their basic Ld and not the general's or some other character's? For example dwarf hammerers with a Lord can use Ld 10 but if they have a break test at -3 they only get stubborn at Ld9, not 10?
Is it in the rulebook or any FAQ that can confirm this? I usually play against dwarves and this issue could change things a bit, as my opponent tends to roll 10s quite often but has been saved by a general nearby...
Thanx.
DiscipleOfKhaine said:
Im not saying that makes them unworthy of a model, Im just saying...that Malekith is the greatest elven king in the history of the world and I will never concede otherwise.
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Page 53 top right column. "stubborn units use the Leadership value on their profile"
also page 78 clearly state how you use a characters leadership. The example spells out a situation like you painted up.
also page 78 clearly state how you use a characters leadership. The example spells out a situation like you painted up.
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Doom and Darkness modifies Ld by -3, Stubborn units take break tests (and break tests only) on their unmodifed leadership, thus it seems reasonable that D&D has no effect on them for break tests (and break tests only)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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RAW: no effect on their breaktest
However a lot of people say that stubborn simply mean that their Ld is not modified by CR. So.. discussing it with your opponent beforehand is a good idea.
However a lot of people say that stubborn simply mean that their Ld is not modified by CR. So.. discussing it with your opponent beforehand is a good idea.
General FAQ:
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FAQ about rules:
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=547809
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FAQ about rules:
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=547809
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On a similar note somewhat related with Ld tests (please forgive me if this is OT).
In the new DoC AB "allure of slaanesh" states that "Enemy models wishing to attack the Daemon must first pass a
Leadership test....". Does that mean only CC? As it says "attack" could it also mean shooting attacks?.
You see i'm gonna use DoC against dwarfs with plenty of slaanesh, so i'm worried about all these Ld issues, like the stubornness and such...
@Dalamar: I thought stubborn meant that your Ld couldn't be modified by CR, doesn't it say anywhere that it can be affected by magical means? Otherwise why not just make the unit unbreakable?
Thanx for the quick replies
In the new DoC AB "allure of slaanesh" states that "Enemy models wishing to attack the Daemon must first pass a
Leadership test....". Does that mean only CC? As it says "attack" could it also mean shooting attacks?.
You see i'm gonna use DoC against dwarfs with plenty of slaanesh, so i'm worried about all these Ld issues, like the stubornness and such...
@Dalamar: I thought stubborn meant that your Ld couldn't be modified by CR, doesn't it say anywhere that it can be affected by magical means? Otherwise why not just make the unit unbreakable?
Thanx for the quick replies
DiscipleOfKhaine said:
Im not saying that makes them unworthy of a model, Im just saying...that Malekith is the greatest elven king in the history of the world and I will never concede otherwise.
just a side note, stubborn units get to use either the modified generals leadership (if he's in range) or their own unmodified leadership, whichever is higher
this mostly comes up with snotlings and there pathetic leadership 4, if they are in range of an orc general (leadership 8 or 9)
this mostly comes up with snotlings and there pathetic leadership 4, if they are in range of an orc general (leadership 8 or 9)
Fr0 wrote: The evil Dr. Henry McCoy as usual, has a firm grasp on the rule.
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Malekith's psychologist wrote:On a similar note somewhat related with Ld tests (please forgive me if this is OT).
In the new DoC AB "allure of slaanesh" states that "Enemy models wishing to attack the Daemon must first pass a
Leadership test....". Does that mean only CC? As it says "attack" could it also mean shooting attacks?.
You see i'm gonna use DoC against dwarfs with plenty of slaanesh, so i'm worried about all these Ld issues, like the stubornness and such...
Last sentence specifies combat so it doesn't work against shooting attacks
@Dalamar: I thought stubborn meant that your Ld couldn't be modified by CR, doesn't it say anywhere that it can be affected by magical means? Otherwise why not just make the unit unbreakable?
Thanx for the quick replies
Stubborn means you take break tests on the Ld that is stated in the model's profile unchanged by any means (but note that testing on more dice like with Slaanesh 6th spell is not modyfing Leadership )
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However a lot of people say that stubborn simply mean that their Ld is not modified by CR. So.. discussing it with your opponent beforehand is a good idea.
Thank you for spelling this out, this was the point i was attempting to get across to no avail. Unmodified by CR is not the same as Unmodified entirely.
The time for critical thinking is becoming critical I think
I'd be inclined to say that Doom and Darkness would affect a Stubborn unit, even on their break test. The RAW state:
Doom and Darkness is not a "Break test modifier", therefore, IMO, it would apply to a Stubborn unit, even when it's taking a Break test.
Just one way to look at it, though
BRB, page 52 wrote:They always ignore Break test modifiers, regardless of how much they lost the combat by.
Doom and Darkness is not a "Break test modifier", therefore, IMO, it would apply to a Stubborn unit, even when it's taking a Break test.
Just one way to look at it, though
Currently Listening To: In Flames
I completely agree with jayferd22 in this case; you can modify the ld of a stubborn unit with D&D, as it just 'changes' the leadership. Before the combat the LD is already at -3, so you start the combat with stubborn at your LD-3, or that's at least the way I have always played it
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jayferd22 wrote:Off Topic In Flames ia a great band Bleys.
Is there anyway we can get Gav involved here? This topic obviously has two different ways of looking at it and could use some input from the higher ups.
Gav is no longer working for GW. I will see if I can get a hold of Alessio.
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well, arguing that Doom and Darkness and other items that modify leadership are useless against stubborn units is a bit over the top, I'd say.
and, to use the weapon of the nasty people who use ridiculous arguments against those people themselves, here is my ridiclulous argument:
- Stubborn units ignore break test modifiers,
- Doom and Darkness doesn't result in break test modifiers; the effect of D&D is an Ld modifier,
=> ergo, a stubborn unit makes the break test at its modified leadership
and, to use the weapon of the nasty people who use ridiculous arguments against those people themselves, here is my ridiclulous argument:
- Stubborn units ignore break test modifiers,
- Doom and Darkness doesn't result in break test modifiers; the effect of D&D is an Ld modifier,
=> ergo, a stubborn unit makes the break test at its modified leadership
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one sentence before the one quoted by Blays:
page 53 rulebook
"During a Break test, Stubborn units use the Leadership value on their profile."
Second sentence doesn't invalidate the first one, they both work together.
page 53 rulebook
"During a Break test, Stubborn units use the Leadership value on their profile."
Second sentence doesn't invalidate the first one, they both work together.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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