Shooting and champions?

[Rugi]

It says in the rulebook that champions are treated like characters when they are shot at. So I have three questions:

1. Unit of five knights with full command is joined by another character. Does the character get his look-out-sir roll? Does the unit champion get the look-out-sir (with or without another character in the unit)?

2. We always played that hits against units with less than 5 models which have a champion are not randomised against champion and the rest of the unit. So for instance a unit of 2 wraiths and a banshee gets hit by a magic missile. Do you randomise or not? Because if you randomise, some wounds may go to waste as it might happen that you kill the banshee but not wraiths. So if we should randomise, do excess wounds made on champions transfer on the unit?

3. Nothing about characters but about salamanders. Lizardmen players in our club constantly claim that when you shoot at salamanders you first randomise between salamanders and skinks and only then roll to hit. This IMO surely can`t be the proper procedure and I tried to tell them that on countless times. Salamanders are US 2 so it doesn`t matter if the rest of the unit is US 1 and skirmishers. And if they would be right, then hits are also firstly randomised between apprentice and hydra and only then rolled to hit. But this is not the case IMO. Am I right?


Thanks.

[Lord temnir]

Number one: I'm not sure but the way we play it in battles on our GW-store is that both get the save. (for example 5 TK-Charriots+King on charriot).

Number two: I don't really have a clue so I am quiet.


Number three makes me think... Because I've always played it as a whole unit of skirmishers but the point you mentioned makes sense...

[Furiouscado]

1. If I'm reading it literally.. the character is in a unit consisting of 5 rank and file models so he gets the LOS. The champion should also get it as long as the unit has 5 rank/file models. He counts as one of them so I'd say he gets it too.

2. You can do it shot by shot if you want and randomize each shot as you go as to not waste them. I don't know if that's the official rule because i can't find it, but that's how I've played before. Otherwise, it does make sense that an uneven number of shots hits one person... but it's not necessarily the rule.

3. It clearly says in the Lizardmen army book that a 1-4 hits the sallie and a 5-6 hits the handler.. You have 10 hits.. you roll.. 1, 2,2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6 ... 7 hits on the sallies, 3 hits on the crew.. then you roll to wound.

[Bad beast]

1) i personally would rule that the character gets the look out sir, and the champion does not, but thats just my interpretation and house rule, the only other option i could see is that neither gets the look out sir roll

2) you are supposed to randomize, however, for the most part people don't as the unit champion can still be taken out should the unit take enough wounds to be wiped out, and adding an extra roll does end up taking more time, note however that if you do randomize it, you distribute hits evenenly then only randomize the remainder, meaning if your unit of 3 takes 7 hits from a magic missle each model is hit twice with the last one randomized

3) you do not randomize until after you have hit, the salamanders in the unit stop the unit from being able to claim the -1 to hit, just as the hydra with beastmasters gives your opponent +1 to hit for large target

[Calisson]

RAW: champ is NOT rank-and-file.
Muso and standard are.
In a unit of 5, full command, you have only 4 rank-and-file.
So no look-out-sir.

For look-out-sir, the minimum with full command is to have 6 models.
If such unit is joined by a dozen of heroes (not mounted on monsters, but a horse is OK), then they all of them, and the champ, can benefit from look-out-sir.

[Silverheimdall]

You know its silly to use 'RAW' when its really just clearly written.

5 knights with a champion: Randomized shooting/magic.
5 knights, no champ, a character: character is safe from shooting and gets look out sir.
5 knights, a champ, a character: no look out sir, randomized hits between unit, champ and hero.

[Linda lobsta defenda]

Silver Heimdall got it right

[Lordsaradain]

5 knights, a champ, a character: no look out sir, randomized hits between unit, champ and hero.

Huh? So if I have a unit of 5 knights, including command, and my mounted hero joins them he does not get a look out sir roll?!?

[Dalamar]

Not from normal shooting no, only from templates.
But as long as you have 5 or more rank and file models in the unit any character inside that unit is immune to all non-tamplate shooting.

That also means if you have 5 knights + champion (making it a unit of 6) the champion can't be shot down unless whole unit dies in a single turn.

[Silverheimdall]

by 5 Knights & a champ I meant a unit of 5 including a champ.

Champions do not count as 'Rank-and-file' for anything that is distributed as shooting.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

So a unit of 4 knights a champion and a hero hit by 12 arrows has all the shots randomised with 1-4 being the knights, 5 is the champion and 6 is the character?

If the same unit is hit by a cannon ball or a warp lightning cannon the character doesn't get a look out sir save.

I think this has become a common question since Vampire counts because the same question was asked on our club forum recently.

[Dalamar]

It's actually described pretty nicely in the rulebook you know.

If you have a unit of 4 knights (K), champion (C) and a hero (H) making it 6 models

KKKKCH

that is hit by 12 shots the hero is ignored (cannot be hit) as there are 5 rank and file models. Rank and file models *include* champion, but he's treated as a character in terms of randomisation.

now you have 5 models that can be hit

KKKKC

first you give each model 1 hit. still 7 left
then you give each model 1 more hit. 2 hits left
and the remaining 2 hits are randomised in any fashion you like (most commonly 1-4 hits unit 5 hits champion, 6 is rerolled)

This way every model got hit at least twice, while the actual hero is laughing hiding behind his friends.

For look out sir champion counts as rank and file model, so as long as there are 5 or more rank and file models in the unit, champion and all attached heroes gain benefit of look out sir!


If someone fields 4 Knights of the Blood Keep + Vampire hero, the hero *can* be hit by regular shooting and *does not* benefit from look out sir! rule.

[Silverheimdall]

It's actually described pretty nicely in the rulebook you know.

If you have a unit of 4 knights (K), champion (C) and a hero (H) making it 6 models

KKKKCH

that is hit by 12 shots the hero is ignored (cannot be hit) as there are 5 rank and file models. Rank and file models *include* champion, but he's treated as a character in terms of randomisation.

No, the Champion does not count as Rank & File when hit by ranged attacks but is a character in all respects when it comes to being shot at, thus every model in the unit takes 2 hits out of those 12 - the hero takes 2, the champ takes 2 and the 4 other Knights take 8.

For look out sir champion counts as rank and file model, so as long as there are 5 or more rank and file models in the unit, champion and all attached heroes gain benefit of look out sir!

As long as there are 5 - excluding the champion -.


quoting rulebook, page 81

"Even though they are rank & file models rather than characters, champions are subject to the following rules that govern characters...

-Champions can move within their unit...
-Champions can accept and issue challenges...
- Champions are treated as characters when their unit is hit by ranged attacks


This is before randomization/distribution of the hits - whenever the unit is hit by ranged, the champion is NOT a rank&file.

[Dalamar]

I agree with it as RAW... but it's insanely stupid

It means buying champion for 5man units that are supposed to be joined by hero (mostly 5 knights + hero hitting force) is a *liability* instead of strength. I'm sure it wasn't intended this way.

[Sulla]

I agree with it as RAW... but it's insanely stupid

It means buying champion for 5man units that are supposed to be joined by hero (mostly 5 knights + hero hitting force) is a *liability* instead of strength. I'm sure it wasn't intended this way.

I don't agree. It is part of his champion status that he becomes more vulnerable. There are plenty of advantages to balance it out. Not the least of which being that that champ is able to challenge enemy characters to protect the hero in his unit from their attacks. It's no different to the downside of banners sometimes surrendering more VP's than the unit they were in was worth...

Also, don't forget that unit champs used to be single wound heroes in their own right, bought from the hero allowance of an army. So it is entirely likely that GW did intend them to be that vulnerable in certain circumstances.

[Silverheimdall]

I agree with it as RAW... but it's insanely stupid

It means buying champion for 5man units that are supposed to be joined by hero (mostly 5 knights + hero hitting force) is a *liability* instead of strength. I'm sure it wasn't intended this way.

That's the thing, you blame RAW but.. if you don't go by RAW then you are making stuff up - inventing rules.

When stuff like that is clear, there's no reason not to read it as is it written.
You don't agree with it but its still the rule.