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Removing Whole Units from Combat? 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:43 pm
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Hi everyone I'm farily new to the hobby, but i've had an annoying problem come up a couple of times and was wondering if the rules we were using are correct.

The problem is whether or not you can remove full units from combat by the positioning of enemy models.

The first time this problem came up i had my corsairs charge the flank of my friend's chaos knights while they were already engaged in another combat with a group of dwarf slayers. The flank i Charged happened to end with a BSB and when it came time to actually do the combat he challenged the dwarf player with his BSB and was accepted, and when he took out his BSB to do the challenge he claimed my corsairs couldn't attack because they were no longer in base to base contact. I went along with it becasue the dwarf palyer agreed, but when we lost combat he said my corsairs had to make the break test which they failed and then he over ran them. In other words i lost a full unit of 20 corsairs with comand for nothing. So my question in this situation is were my corairs removed from combat, and if they were how could he over run them, or if they weren't why couldn't they attack?

the second time this came up was when i had an assassin in a unit of black guard against his chaos knights. After a long battle i was down to just my assassin, but i recieved back up from my brother's saurus cavalry which did extremely well and killed about half the unit of knights on their charge. When it became my assassin's turn to attack my friend claimed he couldn't because the lost models put him out of base contact while i argued that he should be able to attack because models should be removed so that all the units involved would stay in combat wth most to most in base contact. I won the argument this time by pure stubborness, the black gaurd would be proud, and i was wondering which one of us was right, or if we both got it wrong.

Sorry for the long post but it's a wierd question that i thought needed the examples to make sense.


Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:11 pm
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Ok for the first question, firstly if his BSB was in contact with your corsairs, he can not move it through the unit to the dwarfs (this is because hes too busy fighting you). Dwarfs Chaos and Druchii was this a 2v2 or something? Anyway, if the unit was only engaged in the flank the BSB could move again but effectively he is otherwise distracted by your corsairs.
So, you can attack. You can attack (you charged right?) as many models are in base contact (2 attacks) and if you wipe out the first file (since your in the flank) you start removing models from the second.
Only the corsairs in B2B with the BSB can attack him.
So, you should have fought. If you were still to fail the combat, by all means you break and can be run down - but lets hope you get away ;)

As for #2 - If the knights had killed everything in the front rank, your assassin can still attack and models are removed from the second rank (as are overkill from the first rank by the knights). This is like the unit running through, killing a guy, stepping over the body and killing someone else etc.
The only time you can only hurt the models in the front rank is when you do not charge.


Hope that helps.


Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:21 pm
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In situation 1 he is correct, however he was wrong in moving his models. The challenged is the one who moves not the challenger. Also the models don't actually leave combat they are positioned across from each other. However unless all the dwarf slayers were dead it was not possible for him to over run you as he was still locked in combat(Edit:however I see that you forgot the slayers were unbreakable that explains that)

When it comes to removing models you remove those closest to those doing the attacking. So if your Assassin was in BTB with the half of the models that were killed then no he did not get to attack. the only time you would get to attack is if you would be striking at the same time is when charging or at the same initiative as those that you already rolled for(as technically you would roll for all these at the same time)

Edit: In 1 I am assuming that the chaos knights were in 1 rank and the slayers were in the front. if they were in two then all models in BTB with the back rank would get to attack.
for situation 2 as i understand it the assassin was in the front with the saurus in the flank.

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Last edited by Masterofdarkness on Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:26 pm
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i stand corrected ;)

i have a question though - why didnt your assassin challenge his BSB?


Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:28 pm
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Situation 1: It depends. The model which accepts the challenge is moved into contact with the challenging model. If that does not work, the challenging model is moved. The places which are freed are immediately taken by other members of the unit (the way you put the query in your question makes me assume that the chaos player challenged a particular other model, which is not possible. A player issues a challenge and the the opponent(s) decide who accepts it). So if the chaos BSB moved through the knight unit (which is possible, Heartrender) to face the dwarf, you can still attack because someone else takes the place of the BSB. The models are not actually taken out of the unit they are fighting in - they just move inside the unit.

Now, if the BSB for some reason could not move so the Dwarf would have had to move into contact, your corsairs could not have attacked anyone because the model they were in contact with could not be attacked by anyone but the other model in the challenge). The corsairs still count as being in combat and hence they can be overrun by the chaos knights should they happen to win.

Situation two. Heartrender is right. Except - where did you get that thing about not being able to kill anyone beyond the front rank from??? I am pretty sure that this appears nowhere in the rules. You can kill every single member of the unit, no matter what. Otherwise - poor swordmasters. If you'd charge into them with a single model in front of the unit the swordmasters could, with all their attacks only kill one model...
And afaik it does not matter whether everyone the (assassin in your case) was in contact with died already - you still get to attack. The assassin just can't be attacked.

@masterofdarkness - where did you get all that complicated stuff about initiative and closest to the attacking model from? After reading your post I checked my book and it is way simpler in there... can you give me a chapter or page reference for the stuff you said?

Edit - oh well... people beat me to it...

HUZZAH!

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Last edited by Mr. anderson on Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:36 pm
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I got confused then, i was refering to something different, so ignore what i said.

(Mr. Anderson what i meant was when you charge, you can wipe out as many models as you do wounds, but if you wipe out the first rank they can not attack back. Correct? Not sure what was going through my head when i posted that before.)


Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:41 pm
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@Heartrender - now I get you ;)

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Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:46 pm
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Sorry i forgot some things.

#1 It was actually 1v2 with me and the dwarf player against my friend playing Demons and mortals of chaos. The dwarves were in front and my corsairs were on the right flank in base contact witht the BSB. So it seems like he was right that my corsairs couldn't attack but for the wrong reason as the dwarf hero could have moved into contact with his BSB. and on the over run issue both me and the dwarves fled and he chose to chase me.

in #2 it was just 5 knights in a different battle with no BSB so challegning wasn't an option and at the start of the combat my assassin was my only model left in the unit and was on the very left front corner of unit witht the saurus taking up the rest of the room on the front. So when the saurus cav killed some of his knights he removed them all from the side with my assassin and claimed he was no longer in combat. And from what you guys are saying it looks like he was right because my assassin would have been pushed out of Base contact and out of combat.
So it looks like i was wrong in both situations. Thanks for helping to clear that up for me i really appreciate it.


Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:00 pm
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who would pursue a unit of corsairs over a unit of slayers (who are with -1 flee distance like all dwarfs), since slayers are a- worth a lot more victory points to run down and b- a lot more of a threat to leave in the game. Makes sense to chase the better unit which you also have more chance of catching.

Just another point that came to mind ;)


Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:03 pm
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I have no idea why he chose to chase me except maybe that the unit of slayers was already down to practically nothing and i had a nice full unit of corsairs waiting to be destroyed.


Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:06 pm
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Come to think about it - who would pursue a unit of slayers anyway... they don't flee because they are unbreakable...

HUZZAH!

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Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:06 pm
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In Situation Number 2....

Unless the Saurus Cavalry had a banner spell or magic item that Gave them ASF... Your Assassin should have gone first anyways... ASF with Innitiative 10 So situation Number 2 only happened becuase you forgot the rules concerning your assassin character.

In Situation Number 1... The Turn you charge in you get all Attacks of models wide enough for Base contact... a 50MM wide Cav Base allows 3 Corsairs to swing. If for some reaosn the BSB is exempt from combat those 6 swings are applied to the rank in file... you got screwed.


Besides that WOW Knights clubbered the CR of a Unit of Slayers with a Flank charge? you should have had +2 for a rank and a flank and the Dorf Player would have given + 1 for outnumber and whatever else for banners or ranks if he had more ranks than you... So damn.


Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:09 pm
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It may have been basic dwarf warriors then, it was a while ago and my memory isn't as good as i would like it to be. It also might be thinking the hero was a slayer and the unit was normals warriors. Either way it's funny that nobody caught that earlier.


Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:14 pm
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D'oh! forgot slayers dont run... :D and i started out with dwarfs (ages ago)


Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:15 pm
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In situation 2 my assassin had been locked in combat for a few turns already and the saurus cav had charged, and I thought the assassin only has ASF in the round of combat he is revealed.

As for the CR of the knights in situation 1 he claimed that since my corsairs were out of combat their bonuses didn't count, but for some reason he was able to chase me, which still bugs me even if from what most the guys are saying seems correct. Plus he had a crap load of kills, Banner, BSB, and warbanner, so even with the bonus from my corsairs we still would have lost combat. From my experience chaos knights are brutal and as of right now i haven't found a way t stop them


Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:20 pm
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Quote:
As for the CR of the knights in situation 1 he claimed that since my corsairs were out of combat their bonuses didn't count


Well that was wrong... You were locked in combat with another unit and so your unit is taken into account for combat res calculation.

HUZZAH!

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Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:29 pm
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yeah with 2 units on 1 unit even if one of the pair doesnt get to attack, the chances are they may have more ranks and 9 times out of 10 give you enough models to outnumber, though in the example given your fighting US2 models so maybe not, depends how many of each there were. Its always good to have multiple units on one.


Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:35 pm
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Mr. Anderson wrote:


@masterofdarkness - where did you get all that complicated stuff about initiative and closest to the attacking model from? After reading your post I checked my book and it is way simpler in there... can you give me a chapter or page reference for the stuff you said?

Edit - oh well... people beat me to it...

HUZZAH!


If you look on page 32 of the rulebook under which models get to fight it says that models who are in BTB when their turn comes around get to fight, not if they were in BTB at the start of combat.

On page 36 it says that models are removed from the fighting ranks first(in this case the flanked models from the saurus), it also says that if an excess wounds beyond those in BTB then it goes to the next rank from the point of view of the attacking models(or basically the next closest models)

Well I assumed that the chaos knights were in one rank(as who can afford much more than that?) So since there would be no models in the back rank to filter forward then the assassin was in BTB with no one when his turn came

Example

C=chaos S= Saurus a= Assassin (ignore the> there to make it look even when i post)
>>>>>S
CCCCCS
>>>>a>>S

Now let us assume that the saurus kill 3
>>>>>S
CC>>>S
>>>a>S

See where that leaves the assassin, not in BTB with anyone. However if he had models in a rear rank then yes they would move forward and the assassin would get to attack.

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Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:19 pm
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Quote:
Example

C=chaos S= Saurus a= Assassin (ignore the> there to make it look even when i post)
>>>>>S
CCCCCS
>>>>a>>S

Now let us assume that the saurus kill 3
>>>>>S
CC>>>S
>>>a>S

See where that leaves the assassin, not in BTB with anyone. However if he had models in a rear rank then yes they would move forward and the assassin would get to attack.


Your buddy didn't do this right at all.. you don't just leave enemies stranded out of combat. The free models get pulled before any ones in B2B.

It should have been this:

Now let us assume that the saurus kill 3
>>>>>S
>>>CCS
>>>>aS

You can't just take out whatever models you want to conveniently remove enemies from combat.. Just like if you have a fully ranked unit of 20 hit from all sides you pull casualties from the middle until you can't.


Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:58 pm
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you pull from those engaged first, says so in the rule book then it says further casualties are removed to represent the attackers charging over the first slain rank. That would lead me to assume the closest people. Otherwise for example with things like spears first rank dies, no impact on second rank, doesn't quite sound right.

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Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:21 pm
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But then it says something along the lines on but you remove casualties from the rear to represent the rear ranks moving up into combat with the enemy

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:06 am
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You remove non engaged models first, as people said to represent them moving foreward in ranks to fight. So in Master oif darkness example the assassin would still get to fight.

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:30 am
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Your right, my mistake you do remove from the back first.

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:53 pm
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I knew the assassin could still fight, the rest of what i said may not have been accurate, but i was sure that was right ;)


Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:57 pm
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