Character riding Chariot in CC

Duguay-trouin · Post by **Duguay-trouin** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:06 pm

In regards to chariots in CC, the rules state that Enemies rolling to hit against the chariot compare their weapon skill against the weapon skill of the crew or that of the creatures pulling it, whichever is highest.

In regards to characters riding chariots in CC, the rules state that enemies can chose whether to attack either the chariot or the character riding it.

My question is, if the enemies chose to attack the chariot. Do they have to roll against the character's weapon skill because he has the highest WS, and because he replaces one of the crew? Or do they roll against the standard crew member's weapon skill because they chose not to fight against the character?

Thanks

Manticoreslair · Post by **Manticoreslair** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:10 pm

they choose who to attack, the character or the chariot.
then, as the character cant actually operate the chariot so isnt actually crew, they roll against the crews WS and then wound on the chariots toughness

Post by **Kinslayer** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:15 pm

I would say they can still use his weapon skill, the character becomes part of the crew with the highest weapon skill after all - the wounds are still done to the chariot

Manticoreslair · Post by **Manticoreslair** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:17 pm

well if you say that, then how can you attack the character (his weapon skill) and then allocate wounds to the chariot

Post by **Kinslayer** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:20 pm

good point... i just interpreted the rules as 'the character replaces one of the crew members' as he becomes part of the crew. In which case the rule stated in the question would mean you use his weapon skill. Yours is more logical reply though i must admit now.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:21 pm

You guys realize that a character riding a chariot removes only 1 of the 2 crew members.

Attacking the chariot means going against the crew's (normal crew & creatures) WS.

There is no rule saying you use the character's WS to strike his mount, ever.

Duguay-trouin · Post by **Duguay-trouin** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:35 pm

Ok I understand your guys reasoning, and I'm sure you are right in the legal interpretation of the rules. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that if they chose to attack the chariot and only have to roll against the crew member's WS, then we have to assume that the character does not defend the chariot. Instead we are to assume he just sits in the back of the chariot doing nothing?

Post by **Kinslayer** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:56 pm

Hes not sitting there doing nothing, hes busy attacking you - remember although we do things in turns its actually all happening at once.

Duguay-trouin · Post by **Duguay-trouin** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:58 pm

OK, fair enough
Thanks

Lordofthenight · Post by **Lordofthenight** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:14 am

You guys realize that a character riding a chariot removes only 1 of the 2 crew members.

Attacking the chariot means going against the crew's (normal crew & creatures) WS.

There is no rule saying you use the character's WS to strike his mount, ever.

That depends entirely on the chariot. Some characters riding chariots don't get any other crewmembers.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:31 am

Then there are the steeds left! (:
But anyway, anything that can be targetted separately has its own WS to fight against, a character doesn't come to its rescue with his own WS unless it does have a special rule for it.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:13 am

I think lordofthenight is making an oblique reference to Daemons of Chaos chariots. They are a herald only option and the herald are the only crew.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:19 am

Archlector as well is the only crew of his War Altar.

Mr_piechee · Post by **Mr_piechee** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:23 pm

is there a way to ask GW to clarify this, i.e. submit things for FAQ, cause this is the sort of thing that needs to be sorted!

Anyway, i would assume that you use the character WS for everything. when a character has a beast he knows how to control it. if he rides a chariot he wouldn't be much a druchii if he couldn't control it by hiself, and therefore he is part of the crew. since his WS is highest, thats what is used, IMO.

Lethalis · Post by **Lethalis** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:18 pm

Unless it explicitly states that the character becomes part of the crew, you use the WS of the crew. PieChee, your reasoning is logical but as far as I know it's also at odds with the rules.

Krystalice2020 · Post by **Krystalice2020** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:28 pm

you have to look at it from the point of view of the attacker....

You can attack the lord on the chariot, against his WS, his T, and his Saves (which DO benefit from being on a chariot). and if you kill him HE dies and the chariot operates normally.. Or you can attack the chariot, using the Crews WS (since they represent the skill of the chariot, being the driver and experienced user of it), the chariot toughness, and the chariots wounds... and if you kill it the CHARIOT dies and the lord is on foot from then on... (representing that you dismantled or broke the chariot, killed all the crew (since the lord is just riding on it) and slew the cold ones...

They ar two completely separate entites... such as how shots randomize when shotting at a warmachine and its crew or a hydra and its handlers (in the old version) or a salamander and its skinks...

The only difference here is that one is ON the other instead of NEXT to it... The chariot is just a mount treated like every other kind. You can attack the dragon or you can attack the Lord... The lords WS is not used in defending the dragon...

Just think about it that way...

Lethalis · Post by **Lethalis** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:41 pm

Indeed, except for one minor point:

You can attack the lord on the chariot, against his WS, his T, and his Saves (which DO benefit from being on a chariot).

In the 7th edition, this save is only available against ranged attacks. In combat a character does not benefit from a chariot in terms of armour save.

Zeth · Post by **Zeth** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:03 pm

SilverHeimdall wrote:There is no rule saying you use the character's WS to strike his mount, ever.

There does not need to be. Every where I see the chariot option for a mount on a character it uses the phrase 'replacing one of the crew'

Replace (dictionary.com):
"to assume the former role, position, or function of; substitute for (a person or thing)"

Using the word replace implies that the character is now part of the crew.

If the WS of the character is not used, then what is done for TK chariots.

Chariots in combat pg 64.
"Enemies rolling to hit against the chariot compare their own Weapon SKill against the Weapon Skill of the crew or that of the creatures pulling it, whichever is highest."

So you believe that TK on a chariot uses the WS 2 of the steeds, and that the war altar has no weapon skill?

Scareypete · Post by **Scareypete** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:22 pm

Looking at this one from a theory hammer perspective....

Excpet for some seriously elite troops with WS5 or characters with WS5 or greater everyone will only need a 4+ to hit a chariot anyways. Even a pathetic Gnoblar or Skaven slave with WS 2 can hit a WS6 on a 4+... so the defensive bonus of Argueing the Characters WS is really only usefull against things with WS5 or greater who would hit on a 3+

I would rather argue that the Character be attacked at the Chariots toughness

But sadly his wounds are resolved separately from the chariot just liek they are separate form monsterous mounts.

Post by **Thanee** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:41 pm

The crew now have WS5 (as COK), so WS2 or lower only hit on a 5+.

Bye
Thanee

Getwisteerd · Post by **Getwisteerd** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:40 pm

Replace (dictionary.com):
"to assume the former role, position, or function of; substitute for (a person or thing)"

he assumes the former position of one of the crewmembers - standing on the chariot.

Chariots in combat pg 64.
"Enemies rolling to hit against the chariot compare their own Weapon SKill against the Weapon Skill of the crew or that of the creatures pulling it, whichever is highest."

So you believe that TK on a chariot uses the WS 2 of the steeds, and that the war altar has no weapon skill?

1. yes, when targetting the chariot.
2. Don't have the empire book but I'd assume so, it's not going to do much to parry right?

Dggrj · Post by **Dggrj** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:08 am

CC attacks against the STank hit automatically, don't they? Consistent with WS 0 (except the bit somewhere about a model dying if any of its stats are 0, but it's not really 0 here, just '-').

Lethalis · Post by **Lethalis** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:45 am

Actually that only goes for S, T and/or W. Any characterestic at 0 (or -, which is the same) besides Strength, Toughness or Wounds doesn't mean instant death.

Because I'd hate to see my chariot model dead in turn 1 because it has BS 0.

Melinia · Post by **Melinia** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:00 am

So here's a question relating to characters in chariots in close combat...

During a close combat phase, I wiped out an opposing player's unit with a chariot. I overran as a result and hit another unit in the flank. Fast forward to the next player's turn and he charges my chariot's flank with a unit of cavalry.

In my chariot, I have a character. If I issue a challenge to the cavalry unit (which includes a champion who cannot move out of base to base contact with my chariot since he has no second rank and his frontage isn't big enough), can any of his models that are not participating in the challenge attack my chariot? Or can only his champion attack me that close combat round?

Page 77 indicates that crewmen that are not participating in the challenge cannot fight while the challenge is going on. So I'm inclined to believe that the rest of the models can't get involved. But I'm not entirely certain of that.

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:28 am

Zeth wrote:So you believe that TK on a chariot uses the WS 2 of the steeds, and that the war altar has no weapon skill?

Isn't the war altar pulled by 2 steeds? In both those cases, the chariot uses the WS of the steeds.

BTW, I just realised that goblin chariots get to use the WS3 of the wolfs, which I never thought of before. Neato!