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Hydra unit strength for the purpose of Fear 
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:18 pm
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Question that came up in a game last night - when determining whether a Fear causing unit outnumbers the enemy, do you consider only those models that cause Fear, or the whole unit?

The specific case was a War Hydra unit attacking a pair of Minotaurs. Two minotaurs is unit strength 6. The War Hydra by itself is unit strength 6 (so only equal, not outnumbering) but it is also accompanied by a pair of non-Fear causing handlers, bringing its unit strength up to 8. So does the Hydra unit as a whole out as an outnumbering Fear-causing enemy?


Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:19 am
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Rending Star
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Only the fear-causing models count.

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Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:24 am
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It doesn't count as mount for the handlers so it's US for fear purposes is equal to its maximum wounds (5 not 6)

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Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:04 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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Has this been debated or faq'd before?

pg50-51
says the "combined unit strength of fear/terror causing unit"
not "combined strength of fear/terror causing models in unit"


Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:44 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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You don't understand.
The Hydra causes Terror, the Hydra is US5
The Beastmasters do not cause Fear or Terror, they are US1 each.

You only count the models that cause fear, in this case, the Unite strength is 7 but only US5 of it causes Terror, they don't suddenly become US7 Terror - that's not what the rules say.

Same when you have a character with Terror join a unit - they do not cause terror, you only cause terror if your hero gets in base contact with the enemy or they come within 6" of you - the rest of the unit is immune but they do not, themselves, count their US for Terror/Fear purposes.


Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:24 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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I do in fact understand.
Everything you say mostly makes sense.
However the point being argued is not, does the whole unit cause terror. That is clearly defined in the book. You didn't need to repeat it.
The only question is if the unit strength is counted, when the fear terror IS in effect.
The book says count the whole unit and not models.
Your telling me models only. But arn't pointing out any page or faq like i asked that proves that.

pg79
also says that a character riding a mount that causes terror/fear also causes fear/terror.

The handlers are not really riding it but there's nothing in the book I've found yet that actually says you don't count their unit strength for fear/terror.

Where did your answer come from?


Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:18 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Logic mostly.
The unit doesn't cause Terror, the Hydra does.
The unit doesn't cause Terror, the single hero on foot does.

etc

Having a US1 character that causes fear/terror in a unit of 25 spearelves doesn't give you a US of 25 for breaking units with Fear/Terror.


Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:24 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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Even if it is logical, I want official answers. Not ones made up just because it seems right.

Even if we do want to use logic.
I think they would add their unit strength.

What's more scary?
A single guy on a hill.
or a guy on a hill with a whole army behind him?


Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:34 pm
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Slave on the Altar

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I've always played that a feared character in a unit counts the whole unit for outnumber.

I'd be interested in knowing of a rule page that supports only the fear causer counting for unit strength as well.


Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:41 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I wonder if its a 6th edition rule for the single US, I dunno, just seems more sensible to play it this way.


Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:43 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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I think it just makes it alot more confusing and have to count alot more.. I'd go with Malefus.

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Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:56 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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hero on cold one in black guards of 16, hydra on the flank

So US25 Fear? that seems awfully unfair for just having an actual US5 + US2 of Fear/Terror.


Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:15 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Unfair? Not really considering how the Undead hordes look.
It's simple, that's my argument. But I sure can see your point.. I think I'll actually do it like you suggest in the future.

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:27 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Its just that we've never read the "units" part as "units that don't cause fear/terror still count if part of it causes fear/terror".


Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:47 am
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I've always played as Silver as have every time it came up in a tournament. I'll find my 6th ed to look for some evidence.

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:52 am
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Slave on the Altar

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So it sound like there isn't a clear answer. I went through the rulebook very carefully after the game this came up in, and to me the wording seems ambiguous. I had hoped somebody could point me to a FAQ or something.

BTW, I have my copy of the DE army book in front of me, and it clearly has Hydras at 6 wounds. Has this been reduced in the new version?


Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:31 am
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If the item conveys fear or terror to the character and his unit then you count the whole unit. Example Dread Banner. If a character on cold one joins a unit of BG the whole unit does not cause fear. The character conveys immunity to fear (pointless for BG) only.

If two or more units in a combat cause fear their unit strength is determined by counting both units.

Hydra causes terror/fear beastmasters do not but it could have been written more clearly. Beastmasters get immune to terror/fear from the hydra and that is all.

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:41 am
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Witch Elf
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It has been answered back in the chronicles for 6th edition, and it was answered that you only count the ones that actually cause fear/terror. No reason not to follow that ruling now.

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:24 am
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Executioner

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Than W wrote:
BTW, I have my copy of the DE army book in front of me, and it clearly has Hydras at 6 wounds. Has this been reduced in the new version?


The 7th ed. Hydra only has 5 wounds.


Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:10 am
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Trainee Warrior

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Allright after linda pointed out the rule was faq'd. I went looking for it.
http://www.geocities.com/mi_whplayers/f ... ch_faq.txt
(near the middle)
The question was answered saying you only count the models that cause fear.
However two questions later it also says. That a character in a unit that causes fear does not make that unit immune to fear.
In 7th edition it does.

So to me this proves that defaulting to a 6th edition faq might give an answer. But doesn't mean it's right.


Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:56 pm
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It does mean its right when the wording has not changed at all and we have had no reason to think it is wrong. We have no FAQ and no wording change to think that a single hero with the terror mask gives an entire unit terror.

-Rex

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:19 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Azure you are correct. Especially since we know how items that give effects to units joined by their bearers work. It will specifically say so in the the item rules. Example... Gem of Nightmares.

Beastmaster do not cause terror or fear. They are form a unit with a monster that causes terror they get the immunity benefit and that is all.

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:28 pm
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Nurik0 wrote:
However two questions later it also says. That a character in a unit that causes fear does not make that unit immune to fear.
In 7th edition it does.


Well there you have it. It was changed in 7th edition and re-worded. Just because a rule in an old FAQ has been changed in a new edition doesn't mean the one 2 questions earlier has been.


Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:32 pm
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