Killing Blow and Combat Resolution

[Furiouscado]

There is no rule stating a model can ever die unless one of its stats drop to zero. Now, since his other stats are not going down to zero, it must be wounds as that is the most logical. Not to mention it worked like this in 6th ed and there is no concrete evidence to have a belief that it works any other way besides playing Devils Advocate and if that is the case, I'll stop watching this thread. Play it however you want but every tournament I've ever been in, when the opponent gets KBed its however many wounds he had left.

-Rex

thank you...

No it doesnt. Killing blow does not remove the remaining wounds. It slays the model. The wounds getting to zero is not even mentioned in the rule. You're only assuming it does.

ok let's bring it back to WHFB 101... how do you "slay a model?" ... you reduce it's wounds to zero... so if you're fighting a character and you reduce his wounds from 3 to 0, you did 3 wounds...regardless of how many swings you took

[Ampao]

There is no rule stating a model can ever die unless one of its stats drop to zero. Now, since his other stats are not going down to zero, it must be wounds as that is the most logical. Not to mention it worked like this in 6th ed and there is no concrete evidence to have a belief that it works any other way besides playing Devils Advocate and if that is the case, I'll stop watching this thread. Play it however you want but every tournament I've ever been in, when the opponent gets KBed its however many wounds he had left.

-Rex

thank you...

No it doesnt. Killing blow does not remove the remaining wounds. It slays the model. The wounds getting to zero is not even mentioned in the rule. You're only assuming it does.

ok let's bring it back to WHFB 101... how do you "slay a model?" ... you reduce it's wounds to zero... so if you're fighting a character and you reduce his wounds from 3 to 0, you did 3 wounds...regardless of how many swings you took

and I agree.

But special rules trump general rules, am I right? Killing blow says the model is slain. Nothing about the wounds remaining. Its just removed as a casualty outright.

Killing a character with Killing Blow, in my opinion is not the same as reducing the character's wounds to 0.

If we do ever face each other on the tabletop, I would happily try and find a solution. A roll off or something. Being that is just my opinion and GW hasnt cleared that up for me.

The club I go to (sometimes) plays Kbs as such. and I have no reason to doubt them.

I respect your basis and will have to agree that GW has to clear this up. Because the wording (as with the chariots) is inconsistent.

Peace out!

[Silverheimdall]

Its a 2 years old debate, GWShop has never FAQ'd it probably because they think that a model "slain" means exactly the same as losing all its remaining wounds - they pay their writers by the word so the fewer there are, the less it costs them!

[Elfik]

There is no rule stating a model can ever die unless one of its stats drop to zero. Now, since his other stats are not going down to zero, it must be wounds as that is the most logical.

You mean there is a rule like this, or there isn't? From a "common sense" perspective I would argue that the first KB on a model you count remaining wounds but not on other KBs. You can't really stab someone in the heart twice, and if someone gets lucky 6s they could get max overkill from a unit champ with KB from the cauldron. That's ridiculous.

[Mr. anderson]

Killing a character with Killing Blow, in my opinion is not the same as reducing the character's wounds to 0.

How is is different to losing all your wounds?

The rulebook states that if a character has lost all its wounds or strength/toughness are reduced to 0, it is removed as casualty. It does not mention any other way for a character to die, hence, no matter the cause of the character's death, the wounds which the character has lost (since neither your toughness or your strength is much affected by losing your head) are added to the combat resolution, just like when you hit and wound twice - the number of to wound rolls has nothing to do with the number of wounds lost.

HUZZAH!

[Gastronauticon]

I will just go with what the Saxophonist of Doom said for gaming purposes.

As for the issue of whether a "slain" model has lost all of its wounds, I find it convenient to consult other GW products for prejudiciding rulings. If the wording is the same, the effect should be the same unless stated otherwise.


Would you, for instance, argue that super expensive magic weapons causing instant death (like the Venom Sword amongst others) does in fact only generate 1CR?

They are man-sized glowing devices that vapourize flesh in fairly spectacular ways!
It sure would suck if the John Doe next to the guy struck by such a device would be more shocked by multiple stabbings of ye olde hayfork...

[Furiouscado]

I will just go with what the Saxophonist of Doom said for gaming purposes.

As for the issue of whether a "slain" model has lost all of its wounds, I find it convenient to consult other GW products for prejudiciding rulings. If the wording is the same, the effect should be the same unless stated otherwise.


Would you, for instance, argue that super expensive magic weapons causing instant death (like the Venom Sword amongst others) does in fact only generate 1CR?

They are man-sized glowing devices that vapourize flesh in fairly spectacular ways!
It sure would suck if the John Doe next to the guy struck by such a device would be more shocked by multiple stabbings of ye olde hayfork...

Frostblade: (pg 84 of VC book) - If a model suffers one or more wounds from the frostblade (after saves, etc) they are slain outright and lose all remaining wounds... This is the newest errata on an instant kill weapon that says the model loses all remaining wounds... so i would assume it would count all wounds to CR

[Celius]

OK then, lets add another, less hostile approach to this debate. In my opinion, if you were to get a killing blow and slice off someones head, tear their heart out, etc. then first of all, its much more terrifying to the unit you are fighting than just something as mundane as stabbing a guy a few times.

Second of all, it deserves to be called more than one wound. I mean come on, he just cut your head off, give him some credit.

[Furiouscado]

Celius - i think for the most part we all agree on the point you're making. Some of us have made the same point. However people need proof and a page number if they're going to be able to enforce it in a game with someone that disagrees.

i don't think this debate is hostile though, sorry to anyone if they think I'm being personal or anything.

[Ampao]

Hope I wasnt being read as hostile. I wasn't trying to be.

I for one am not taking anything personal. I may be interpreting the rules too RAW. But you all have valid points. I wish they would just FAQ this.

I have my own interpretation, but if need be, I am willing to let this go anyway. Its not THAT important.

Peace Out

p.s. see this discussion in a forum i go to. Thats the discussion we had a couple of months before.

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

Hope I wasnt being read as hostile. I wasn't trying to be.

No, I just viewed you as being a devil's advocate.

[Ampao]

Hope I wasnt being read as hostile. I wasn't trying to be.

No, I just viewed you as being a devil's advocate.

Ah. Well, I came with that conclusion from another forum discussion I had. See post above yours.

Edit: We also had another discussion re: Bret Paladin with the Lance of KB on large targets charges Papa Nurgle with Miasma on itself. S1 against T6. No way you can wound. But if you roll a 6 do you kill papa nurgle? Theres no rules saying you can't roll.

[Furiouscado]

Hope I wasnt being read as hostile. I wasn't trying to be.

No, I just viewed you as being a devil's advocate.

Ah. Well, I came with that conclusion from another forum discussion I had. See post above yours.

Edit: We also had another discussion re: Bret Paladin with the Lance of KB on large targets charges Papa Nurgle with Miasma on itself. S1 against T6. No way you can wound. But if you roll a 6 do you kill papa nurgle? Theres no rules saying you can't roll.

You can't ever KB anyting +US2... so it doesn't matter in that situation

[Ampao]

You can't ever KB anyting +US2... so it doesn't matter in that situation

that was a situation with the Bret Lance with KB against large targets.

[Furiouscado]

right, but you said "there's no rules saying you can't" but there is...

[Lordofthenight]

That's not what he was talking about though. In that situation, I suppose you would be able to killing blow him. The rules don't actually say not to role to wound if you can't hurt him (like in that instance), so I guess you could still roll the dice and come up a six. Same with poisoned attacks, you'd still roll to hit even if you can't wound him, and just hope for 6's.

[Azure]

But lordofthenight if we relate it to poison and shooting, the situation is more much similar to needed 10's to hit. IE you can't and 6's don't poison. I would say he can't KB it.

-Rex

[Whobetta]

I thought they changed the rulings of KB so that you can KB higher US units than just 2?

no?

[Lordofthenight]

I thought they changed the rulings of KB so that you can KB higher US units than just 2?

Nope. US 2 or less only.

But lordofthenight if we relate it to poison and shooting, the situation is more much similar to needed 10's to hit. IE you can't and 6's don't poison. I would say he can't KB it.

I meant poison in combat. But with shooting attacks, you can hit on 7-9, it's just hard. In combat it doesn't go 6s, 7s, 8s ect, so why would you take an example from shooting which doesn't apply?

[Azure]

Because you can always hit in combat so it doesn't apply. Shotting once you need past 9's you can no longer hit which is the most similar to the situation in which you can't wound.

-Rex

[Calisson]

Killing a character with Killing Blow, in my opinion is not the same as reducing the character's wounds to 0.

How is is different to losing all your wounds?

The rulebook states that if a character has lost all its wounds or strength/toughness are reduced to 0, it is removed as casualty. It does not mention any other way for a character to die, hence, no matter the cause of the character's death, the wounds which the character has lost (since neither your toughness or your strength is much affected by losing your head) are added to the combat resolution, just like when you hit and wound twice - the number of to wound rolls has nothing to do with the number of wounds lost.

HUZZAH!

Sorry for late intervention, but although the rulebook actually mentions p.5 that if a character's wounds, strength or toughness are reduced to 0 or less, he dies, the RB mentions also P.95, (killing blow) that with a 6 to wound, the character dies. And it does mention it is a wound. There are several ways to die indeed, and all of them are not listed p.5.

So killing blow RAW do not imply the character looses 2 or 3 wounds, it is written that the character looses 1 wound (cannot armor save) and also that he dies.
Of course, if several hits were made, all rolls should be made including armor save and ward save, even knowing that there is a KB, just to determine the CR. If the KB is the only wound, then CR should be 1, even if the character had previously 2 or 3 wounds.

By the way, it is perfectly legal to KB a dreadlord with 3 wounds: see p. 71, only for monsters do the US = the wounds, it is not true for characters which US is 1 regardless of their wounds. KB can kill anyone up to US 2 so it can kill 3-wounds characters (be them mounted or not).

[Beastmaster kurlan]

I have always and always will play it as such

A killing blow counts for as many wounds as the model has (if it has two wounds, two combat res).

Any other wounds after that count for one more each.

It makes sense and was played as such in 6th.

[Kreoss]

Honestly, it seems pretty simple. Unless there is an errata or a FAQ out there that says otherwise, Killing Blow counts as a single wound. As many people have pointed out here, when a model with the Killing Blow special ability rolls a 6 on the to-wound roll the victim receives one wound with no armour or regen saves allowed and (if not warded) dies. One single wound. Much like the Pit of Shades spell. The model takes an Initiative test and if it fails, it is removed as a casualty. It does not say "...if it fails, is dealt a number wounds sufficient to kill it". Same goes for the Ring of Nightmares (or whatever that silly bound magic item we had was called) where any model in base contact of the bearer is, on a roll of 6, sucked into the realm of eternal nightmares and "counts as slain". Yet again, no mention of wounds. Edit: Of course it makes sense that watching your captain get beheaded would be more intimidating than a normal wound, but when does logic ever coincide with Warhammer?

The trend here is that unless a rule (or a FAQ, errata, etc, like the VC item) specifically states that a model "loses its remaining wounds", it does not. Thus, Killing Blow is a single wound.

Now, I could swear there was a 6th Ed. FAQ specifying that for challenges KB counted as remaining wounds but I haven't been able to find it any time I've looked, so the above still stands.

[Joyfulcheese]

It's similar to the Venom Sword. If you cause one unsaved wound with it and they fail a toughness test on 2d6 they die outright. Does this mean you only get the CR for the wound you caused or the total number of wounds that were lost in the ensuing death? I would say it causes one wound, since it's that one wound that causes them to die, not a combination of wounds.

[Right hand of khaine]

Imagine somebody being cut in real life....

if they were struck so that the blade severed an artery, then the chances are they would die outright from that one wound. However, it is possible that several lesser cuts, perhaps through minor veins, could lead to a great enough loss of blood to have the same effect...they die.

When you look at wounds in WH, consider the total number of wounds as the number of damaging hits the model can take before it is too much for its body to take and so it succumbs.

Killing blow is different. It is an immediately fatal blow, such as decapitation for example. Ultimately however, it was still only a single wound that caused the death.

For purposes of the game, it is a single wound. The benefit of killing blow is that you kill the character outright. Any other wounds you cause, killing blow or otherwise would count alongside that single wound towards CR.

That is my belief, but I could be wrong. The only real way to clear it up is to ask GW.

Right Hand Of Khaine