Really a stupid hated question

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:25 pm

Reading the book I didn't thought about it for 1 second, but someone is arguing that the 2 hags with the cauldron are not champions. Is that correct or it's time to throw someone out of the window?

in my opinion this is only a mental trip...

Post by **Thanee** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:07 pm

That's actually a good question... is being a Hag what makes them champions (then they are), or is it being the champion upgrade of a unit of Witch Elves?

They could very well just be Hag guardians with the same stats as the Hag champions, but without the special rules for champions.

Bye
Thanee

Post by **Kinslayer** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:44 pm

I wouldnt say they are champions, they just follow the hag statline. This really needs to go into that FAQ question thread because then GW will answer it (when they get around to it)

Druchii77 · Post by **Druchii77** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:29 pm

This is the same as a blackguard champ being called a master and now a noble being called a master.

The cauldron witches act as normal witches while the death hag herself is a hero and can use temple of khaine items and poisons.

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:01 am

I don't know but:

- same statline
- same name

It seems to be pretty acceptable that they can be considered champions.
If the Gw wouldn't consider them as champions they could name the hags "guardians" or something like that.
I think that gd didn't even think about the chance of not considering them as champions.

@ druchii77: isn't the "tower" master the champ of the Bg?

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 am

Tower Master is not the same as a Master ;p

They are not champions unless specifically written as champions.
A 'Hag' is only a Champion when taken as a unit upgrade for Witch Elves.

iirc Anvil of Doom crew has Runelord and 2x Ironbreakers with 2A each and the Casket of Souls has 2x Tomb Guards with 2A each, same as champions but not champions unless I'm mistaken ?

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:31 am

After looking through the DE book, the Hags with the cauldron are the same as the hags that are unit champions. In the Cauldron description it doesn't even refer to the Hags as Witch Elves at all it says simply Hags. The death hag and the hags form the crew of the cauldron and are treatred like a warmachine crew. I think all three are characters but go with the Death Hag character slot.

These Hags appear to be exactly the same as the unit champions of the same name and therefore should be able to be given 25 pts of ToK gifts and issue challenges, etc... I could be wrong but nothing in the rules seems to clearly state that they are not.

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:02 am

iirc Anvil of Doom crew has Runelord and 2x Ironbreakers with 2A each and the Casket of Souls has 2x Tomb Guards with 2A each, same as champions but not champions unless I'm mistaken ?

In the dwarf book I don't know what it is written, but surely not "ironbeards". In the Khemri book the crew is named "casket guard" and not "tomb guard champion". Sure they got 2 attacks each, but are named differently and become different models from a tomb guard or a champion.

After looking through the DE book, the Hags with the cauldron are the same as the hags that are unit champions. In the Cauldron description it doesn't even refer to the Hags as Witch Elves at all it says simply Hags. The death hag and the hags form the crew of the cauldron and are treatred like a warmachine crew. I think all three are characters but go with the Death Hag character slot.

Yes yes yes and again yes.

Not considering the Hags (that are strichtly named "Hag" and not "Cob guardian" or other strange stuffs) champions or identical as the wtches champ is strange, even because they've no description. The only quality that they have is to be a "crew member", just as the death hag with them.

Not sure about the chance of getting the 25 points. In the armylist there isn't the 25 pts allowance, but this do not mean that they are not champions. The Hag with the witches is a champion AND can get 25 pts of Tok. They are champions AND are not allowed to take any points on Tok choices.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:59 am

If they are champions, they can issue challenges certainly.

We are left to assume that they are champions since that is the identity GW gave them (along with identical characteristics) if they meant otherwise they should have said otherwise.

Post by **Calisson** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:47 am

Nothing in the CoB unit description can let believe that they are champions.
Sure they do have the same name and stat-line as WE champs, but they are not part of a unit eligible to have champions. So they may be fluff-wise-champions, they are definitively not game-wise-champions.

A champion is an upgrade of a rank-and-file, the CoB has no rank-and-file to upgrade.
A champion is always a unit option, clearly mentioned as such, the CoB has nothing such.

So NO, if there is a challenge, only the Death Hag, or any (Khainite) character that has joined the CoB, can take it.

And NO, they do not get the 25pts of Gifts that real champs get, this would have been written in the book under the CoB entry.

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:37 pm

A champion is an upgrade of a rank-and-file, the CoB has no rank-and-file to upgrade

Dwarf engeneers are warmachine champions.

Then the cauldron is quite a particular unit don't you think? I don't think it's right assuming that cauldron Hags are/aren't champion only if they are upgrade for the warmachine.