WYSIWYG - Counts as...

Have a question about the Warhammer rules? Ask them here!

Moderator: The Dread Knights

Post Reply
User avatar
Silverheimdall
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 2503
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: Québec, Canucksda.

WYSIWYG - Counts as...

Post by Silverheimdall »

So I've been thinking about Druchii models.. and rules wise, I am wondering if anyone would have a problem with someone using other models to represent certain units...

Warriors -
Other than using them for RxBs, I don't really want to build Sword&Board warriors. I am planning on using old Metal corsairs that will use their 2nd hand weapon to Parry (front side only) à la Cloak&Dagger.

Dark Riders -
Well I'm still not sure on this one, I've done a pretty fantastic job with Glade Guards/Riders/Warriors conversion on Wood elf horses but I'm thinking of something else: Dark Rider riding Cold Ones that would count as Dark Riders, basically, my Dumb Ones are painted all Black with Green/Blue scales. My 'Fast/Weak Ones' would be an entirely different colour scheme and of course a lightly armoured rider instead of a fully-armoured knight.

So what would you think playing against a Dark Elf player who brought
Metal Corsairs as Warriors (and played them exactly as warriors - personally ill probably never use 'spears' anyway) and had his Dark Riders and Sorceress on a different breed of cold ones? (Probably a redish colour scheme, since every Ork knows 'Red Ones Go Faster' - for those who know 40k Orks ;) )
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: WYSIWYG - Counts as...

Post by Dalamar »

SilverHeimdall wrote:Warriors -
Other than using them for RxBs, I don't really want to build Sword&Board warriors. I am planning on using old Metal corsairs that will use their 2nd hand weapon to Parry (front side only) à la Cloak&Dagger.


If you do some nice conversion then sure.
If you just put down corsairs and say "they're warriors with shields" then it's a bit iffy.

SilverHeimdall wrote:Dark Riders -
Well I'm still not sure on this one, I've done a pretty fantastic job with Glade Guards/Riders/Warriors conversion on Wood elf horses but I'm thinking of something else: Dark Rider riding Cold Ones that would count as Dark Riders, basically, my Dumb Ones are painted all Black with Green/Blue scales. My 'Fast/Weak Ones' would be an entirely different colour scheme and of course a lightly armoured rider instead of a fully-armoured knight.


Many people actually do it (me included) but using different editions of cold ones. Using the same creature for your heavy cavalry and for your light cavalry will be off since the mounts will look the same and have very different stats.
Myself I'm using "fast and furious" 5th edition cold ones for Dark Riders
"sturdy battle cows" 6th edition cold ones for chariots
and "savage and deadly" 7th edition cold ones for knights.

SilverHeimdall wrote:So what would you think playing against a Dark Elf player who brought
Metal Corsairs as Warriors (and played them exactly as warriors - personally ill probably never use 'spears' anyway) and had his Dark Riders and Sorceress on a different breed of cold ones? (Probably a redish colour scheme, since every Ork knows 'Red Ones Go Faster' - for those who know 40k Orks ;) )


Corsairs for warriors without extensive conversion work wouldn't do it for me personally in the long run. Wouldn't mind in a few games now and then but would probably call a ref at a tournament if no conversion work was done to them.

I feel kinda the same about the cold ones. It's the same beast, different paint job just doesn't do it for me, sorry :P
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Silverheimdall
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 2503
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: Québec, Canucksda.

Post by Silverheimdall »

I don't see why a conversion is needed on the corsairs, you can't remove the Cloaks.

Light Armor + Cloak gives 5+
Light Armor + Shield gives 5+

Having the Parry bonus come from their 2nd hand weapon instead of the shield should be reasonable enough...
The only conversion I could do would be to chop off the 2nd hand weapon so that there are no confusion of an extra attack, I can't give them shields.


As for the Cold Ones, the rider will be entirely different and I could probably modify the cold ones but its also a matter of cost, I can get 5 CoK for cheaper than I could get 2 Dark Riders blisters. ($25 vs $28)

Different breeds don't have to look entirely different, they could very well be made smarter and faster by dark magic (or whatever chaotic influence in the northern lands) but weaker as an unwanted result.
User avatar
Langmann
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Posts: 5170
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
Location: Putting needles into people.

Post by Langmann »

Have to agree with Dalamar. Corsairs are so distinct it would be like using Black Guard models as warriors. Or High Elf Archers as warriors... honestly it would turn me off.

Same with the CoK vs Dark riders. That would actually kind of annoy me, especially at a tournament, as it would be hard to distinguish the two even with a color job. Im sure times would occur when the opponent would say, "Oh I thought those were CoK not Dark Riders etc."

Why don't you go with the GladeRider - Dark Rider conversions, they looked great.
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
User avatar
Grez90
The Tamer of Sea Dragons
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:06 pm

Post by Grez90 »

I was wondering if I can use rxb as normal warriors at the GT, as I'm just short by about 7/8 models but have enough rxb to cover them, would somebody call me on this?
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Post by Dalamar »

WYSIWYG is a requirement at GT for all your models. Some leeway is given for characters though.

It's in the rules pack you should have ;)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Druchii77
Purveyor of Pain
Posts: 1721
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:24 am
Location: Wherever the fight is

Post by Druchii77 »

Yeah, you have to be careful when walkign the line of WYSIWYG and counts as. The unit still has to be somewhat similar. Saying corsairs are regular warriors probably wouldn't cut it.
castrensis in totus res
Fight my Brutehttp://suckerpunch77.mybrute.com
Try Evony!http://zao77s.evony.com
User avatar
Grez90
The Tamer of Sea Dragons
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:06 pm

Post by Grez90 »

What the hell, but rxb are warrirors but with different equipment, surely it shouldn't matter that much?
Otherwise I have to buy another box and paint it up by saturday, and I'v already got enough to paint.
I know that if I'd use corsairs as warriros I'd be called, but rxb are the same thing but just with different equipment.
Also I thought they used the 'counts as' rule at the GT, so can't I just say these 7/8 rxb count as warriors?
User avatar
Mr. anderson
Dark Illusionist
Posts: 2270
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:25 am
Location: Dating a Witch elf...

Post by Mr. anderson »

@grez90: I suggest you use unit fillers instead - AFAIK those are leagal at GTs and they don't take half as long to make as painting a whole box of warriors would.

And I think it would be tough to convince the judges to let the warriors with spears count as warriors with crossbows (in addition - its just a principle that you'd rather fight what you see and not fight what your opponent tells you that you are seeing - I wouldn't want to fight a unit of chaos warriors that apparently spent too much time in a nuclear reactor and now have the rough size and general looks as dwarves with handguns).

HUZZAH!
When I think of something witty, I shall put it here.
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Post by Calisson »

Instead of having the corsairs "count as" spearmen or CO "count as" DS, wouldn't it be better to mix up things a little bit?

As long as the front row consists in real spearmen, the other rows could be whatever infantry you have (even not Dark Elves), that would not alter much the perception of your opponent, would it?

For the riders, I'd say that the minimum would be two WYSIWYG models, one on each side, then in between, whatever cavalry you have should work... provided you never put any hero inside.

The key is to understand that WYSIWYG use is to avoid misleading the opponent. If you take steps to help that, it should work for a friendly game.

I personnally routinely accept playing against Lizard's salamanders that look a lot like warp hounds from dark eldars... but there is no way it could mislead anyone.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Ehakir
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:45 am
Location: Located

Post by Ehakir »

As long as you make it clear to see that the units differ from each other (not only in paintjob), I wouldn't mind. The corsairs however are weird, because we are able to use them. I wouldn't mind it if you fielded eternal guard for example, as I would know that you weren't be able to field those, and I could not forget that they are warriors.
So if you use the corsairs, it's a no-no for me (except if you model the SDC to normal cloaks, and give them shields), and for the CoK, DR's; make sure you have two different editions of Cold One models
"Ceterum censeo Ulthuan esse delendam"
-Ehakir

3/4 of games are won by deathstars. Copy this into your signature if you still use real tactics to win.
A18no
Cold One Knight
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:18 pm
Location: Sherbrooke, QC, Canada

Post by A18no »

If i remember.. i saw somewhere that the MAJORITY of your unity must have the right equipment to be WYSIWIG. So if you have 6 warrior with RxB and 4 with lance (or corsair), i think it's correct. Same for the rider: 3 that looks like Dark riders et 2 that don't (maybe the command)

Just a "grain de sel"
Gruff
Trainee Warrior
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:21 pm

Post by Gruff »

It really depends who you are playing with... if it's a friendly game, they shouldn't have a problem as long as it's clear what's what.

All I had was the DE spearhead for my first DE game, so my warriors were mostly skinks, my RBTs were ogre leadbelchers w/ 2 skinks as crew, my witch elves were skink salamander handlers, my executioners were gnoblar trappers, my BG were actually corsairs, my harpies were yet more skinks... obviously not an ideal situation, but my opponent was fine with it, and it was kinda funny to have elite DE proxied by gnoblars and skinks.
Nick7356
Warrior
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:40 am
Location: Canada

Post by Nick7356 »

a18no wrote:If i remember.. i saw somewhere that the MAJORITY of your unity must have the right equipment to be WYSIWIG. So if you have 6 warrior with RxB and 4 with lance (or corsair), i think it's correct. Same for the rider: 3 that looks like Dark riders et 2 that don't (maybe the command)

Just a "grain de sel"


You need at least 2 ranks (OR) a majority of the models & their equipment before using other models as proxies.
My friend plays vampire count and thats what he does with skele, zombies & ghouls when he goes to tournament includig GW ones.
----------W/L/D
Dwarfs 72/24/29
Skaven(OLD) 19/7/4
Skaven(NEW) 3/0/3
Dark Elves 24/4/4
Lizardmen 3/0/0
User avatar
Silverheimdall
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 2503
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:54 pm
Location: Québec, Canucksda.

Post by Silverheimdall »

I've decided to convert my corsairs to add some shields and spears, though not too many but still enough to represent warriors.

Cloaks will remain as they are.

Dark Riders I'm still undecided.
User avatar
Fr0
Trademaster
Posts: 3170
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Fr0 »

I don't think Corsairs would be good representatives for warriors, nor would CO for DR unless you put some serious conversion work into them.
User avatar
Sinzaren
The Soulreiver
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:38 pm
Location: The Black Ark Naggronakk

Post by Sinzaren »

I was actually tempted to convert a few of the new corsairs to have spears and shields. Figured they used similar in the Darkblade strips as raiders from Naggor so they might fit is as a different unit in my army.

As for the DR, not too sure about the idea, only thing I could think of doing is using COs from this edition and last edition so they do look very different.
We ride with kings on mighty steeds across the Devils plain...

http://sinzaren.blogspot.com/
My Blogger Painting Blog - Full of Dark Elf goodness
Post Reply