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Dreadchill
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Anointed question

Post by Dreadchill »

Well I`m ganna play a CoS army and was wondering if I put my anoited in a unit of devoted will he benefit from the musk of the devoted ( I`t works on all unit in base contact with at least on modle) so that units attacking him nexst to a devoted will have to half there WS and if the do will they still half there WS if there in a callange with the anointed..?
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Kida
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Post by Kida »

Musk does work on any model touched by Devoted so don't place Annoited on the edge.
And no, Musk won't work if Annoited is in challenge.
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Post by Lexy »

You can have soporific musk for the anointed though, that will give your oponent halve the WS in a challenge.
But if you always strike first with all the attacks I wouldn't bother and the anointed has a very high WS
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Skalpelk
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Post by Skalpelk »

KidA wrote:Musk does work on any model touched by Devoted so don't place Annoited on the edge.
And no, Musk won't work if Annoited is in challenge.

It's a little more complicated than that. There is nothing to say that model in a challenge is no longer in base contact with main unt. The models are moved to face each other, and not other models may attack hero's in a challenge, but as to no longer in BTB contact - that a little vague.

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Kida
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Post by Kida »

Skalpelk wrote:It's a little more complicated than that. There is nothing to say that model in a challenge is no longer in base contact with main unt.


How about this:

Q. How do weapons/items that affect all models in base to base contact
work when held by a character (or champion) in a challenge?

A. The models engaged in the challenge are considered to be in single
combat during the challenge and may not attack or be attacked by models
outside of the challenge. Therefore the weapon / item only affects the
opposing model in the challenge (and the bearer if it would normally
affect him).
S. Direwolf FAQ Council Interpretation / Rulebook page 99 / Tomb Kings
Army Book page 36 (Destroyer of Eternities Description) / Storm of Chaos
Slayer Army List (Skavenslayer Description)


If models in challenge cannot affect other models, then other models cannot affect those in challenge, right?
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Skalpelk
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Post by Skalpelk »

I can see what you are saying, but "The models engaged in the challenge are considered to be in single combat during the challenge and may not attack or be attacked by models outside of the challenge." does not state they are no longer effected by a units special rule or actaully removed from that unit, but that no one else is allowed to attack people in a challenge.

I am not trying to be a reule-lawyer here, but it's not 100% clear that the unit is not longer in base contact.

Finally it's not an offical FAQ altough 99.99% DW + Brain are correct ;-)

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Linda lobsta defenda
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

well i would agree with direwolves interpretation for sure
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Post by Zakath the slaughterer »

@Skalpelk: Give it up, I would say :D KidA's argument seems pretty solid (strong, good ?).
Skalpelk wrote:I can see what you are saying, but "The models engaged in the challenge are considered to be in single combat during the challenge and may not attack or be attacked by models outside of the challenge." does not state they are no longer effected by a units special rule or actaully removed from that unit, but that no one else is allowed to attack people in a challenge.
Yes, but though your quote doesn't include it, it may be said somewhere else as KidA effectively pointed out.
And think it like this: Anointed and the other guy are moving away from the formation and so the challenged opponent can't anymore sniff the fumes from the surrounding Devoteds/Devoteds from the background.
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Sha'a'alaar
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Post by Sha'a'alaar »

So, if the character is in a unit with the hydra banner and is challenged in the first round of combat - does he get the extra attack?

Cheers

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Post by Tacklbry »

I have always played yes for the Hydra banner and would probably accept sophoric musk working as well. the combat may be between the two individuals (and their mounts) but it is still taking place within the confines of the overall combat. There is nowhere in the rules ather than the statement that other models may not attack. I would think that special abilities of the unit than can be conveyed would still be available.
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Post by Kida »

sha'a'alaar wrote:So, if the character is in a unit with the hydra banner and is challenged in the first round of combat - does he get the extra attack?

Well, yes, since he is still part of that unit, he just ain't in BtB with it ;) . Hydra Banner benefits the whole unit, not just models it is touching...

tacklbry wrote:I would think that special abilities of the unit than can be conveyed would still be available.

Have you even read Q&A I provided?
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Post by Onyx paladin »

OK. spin off question. a dark elf noble is with a unit of spearmen, who are charged by a high elf pansie and his 15 pheonix guards. The two characters enter a challenge, and begin whacking away at each other.

To make a long story short, the spearman unit loses combat, neither character wounds the other, and the guard cause fear, autobreaking the unit.

Would the DE noble be unaffected by the fear since the "fear" of the unit doesn't extend to the pansie he is in a challenge with? :)
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Sha'a'alaar
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Post by Sha'a'alaar »

KidA wrote:Have you even read Q&A I provided?

Yes, but it doesn't exclude SopMusk affecting the opponent in a challenge as he will still be in base contact with the models - just not fighting them.

The Q&A cited would appear to relate to overkill and such like.

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Post by Eeeeron »

Would the DE noble be unaffected by the fear since the "fear" of the unit doesn't extend to the pansie he is in a challenge with?


Yes as he still fears the phoenix guard as fear is not an item, it's psychology
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

sha'a'alaar wrote:
KidA wrote:Have you even read Q&A I provided?

Yes, but it doesn't exclude SopMusk affecting the opponent in a challenge as he will still be in base contact with the models - just not fighting them.

The Q&A cited would appear to relate to overkill and such like.


Overkill? It doesn't even mention overkill! Did you read the part KidA pasted at all?

As characters' items and abilities that require BtB contact do not benefit (nor give penalty for that matter) their unit when in challenge there is no reasoning whatsoever that this wouldn't be the case vice versa. Ruleswise it seems the character is not in BtB contact with the unit it still belongs to when in a challenge.
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Post by Tacklbry »

KidA I did read the Q&A that you posted. That pertains to the hero affecting the unit. That he does not have an effect on the unit while he is fighting a challenge does not actually (or logically) mean that the unit does not effect him and his combat. It may be true, but the example you cited does not prove this as it only states the effect one way.

It makes me wonder though if by challanging a witch hag, i would eleminate the effects of witch brew? The cited Q&A would seem to indicate that, allowing for numbers to weigh in against witches.
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Bleys
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Post by Bleys »

The real issue at hand is whether something that requires base-to-base contact is in effect during a challenge. Witchbrew is something that affects the entire unit, so just challenging the hag doesn't remove its potency (though killing said had in the challenge will).

The whole intent of the challenge is to make it so that two "characters" go at it one-on-one without any help or interference from their respective units. Based on that spirit, things which require base-to-base contact to work would only work if the character was outfitted with them. On the same token, they would only affect the other participant of the challenge, and not the enemy unit.

The wording of the rules, to some extent, and certainly the answers of various Q&As (both official and "semi-official") tend to look at things in the same spirit I've detailed above.
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Bloodtemplar
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

tacklbry wrote:It makes me wonder though if by challanging a witch hag, i would eleminate the effects of witch brew? The cited Q&A would seem to indicate that, allowing for numbers to weigh in against witches.


As with Hydra Banner, Witch Brew doesn't require base to base contact thus neither of them are relevant to the question at hand.
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