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Scouts and getting +1 to who goes first
http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=70886
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Author:  Thanee [ Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Scouts and getting +1 to who goes first

When one side deploys Scouts with their special rule, does this count as having deployed the last unit (so the other player gets +1 on the roll who goes first)?

I don't think this is intended to work this way, but I also cannot find anything that says otherwise.

Bye
Thanee

Author:  Dyvim tvar [ Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

I agree this is not very clear.

An argument that the scouts do not count for who gets the +1 can be based on the Alternating Deployment rules on page 142 of the big red book. As described under those rules, characters are deployed last, and the army that finishes first gets a +1 to the roll. The implication is that you don't count anything that happens after the deployment of characters when figuring out who gets the +1.

It is worth noting that if scouts mess things up for the +1, then fast cavalry would too since their Vanguard rule is also a form of special deployment.

Author:  Dark Alliance [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:17 am ]
Post subject: 

IIRC, this is something where here in the UK a TO has to decide on for an event. GW rules writing at it's best again??

Author:  Stonecutter [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Conv

In my experience scouts and vanguard are counted as being part of finishing deployment and thus can effect which player gets the +1 in pitched battles or other battles using alternating deployment. This is consistent with the rules for scouts on page 79 which specifically refer to setting up these units as part of deployment and the rules for the +1 which refer to a player finishing "deployment" first. Vanguard is different however as it states that the special vanguard move occurs after deployment but before the roll for 1st turn (confirmed by the FAQ). Regrettably, the entire section is under "Deployment Special Rules" and thus there is definitely grey area as to whether or not this counts as part of deployment for determining who gets +1. IMHO, vanguard does count as part of deployment but until a FAQ is released it will likely remain confused.[/code]

Author:  Dyvim tvar [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

Actually neither the Rulebook nor the FAQ you refer to says that Vanguard is "after deployment.". The Rulebook says Vanguard happens "After both sides have deployed all their other forces". This word "other" is key because it means that the Vanguard troops have not actually finished their deployment. If the sentence didn't have the word "other" in it, and just said "after both sides have deployed all their forces," then Vanguard would be after deployment. The use of the word "other" makes it part of deployment.

The FAQ simply states that Vanguard happens before the roll for first turn, which also indicates Vanguard is part of "deployment" since "deployment" happens right before the roll for first turn.

All that said, this is an active topic on the Warhammer Forum right now and I don't want to get into it in two places at once, so head over there if you want to see more of my thoughts on the subject.

Author:  Red... [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

I'm usually in favour of RAW interpretations, but I think on this occasion the RAI seems far more relevant. There's no way that GW intended for scouts to be counted as part of deployment, that's ridiculous. I'll keep on playing that they aren't, because I think that's how it's meant to be played. It may not be RAW, but I still think it's right.

Author:  Dyvim tvar [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

I am going to say one thing that I have not said on the Warhammer forum. That is, I think if you were going strictly "RAW", then in almost every book scenario, scouts would not get to deploy as scouts.

Specifically, 4 of the 6 book scenarios use the "Alternating Units" method from page 142, and according to that rule, "All characters must be deployed last".

This rule is in conflict with the rules for scouts which allow scouts to be deployed after everything else. I obviously don't think this is intended, but probably the "most RAW" interpretation of this conflict is that scouts cannot deploy as scouts in scenarios that use the "alternating units" method of deployment. After all, page 79 does say that "deployment special rules may not be permitted in some scenarios," in which case scouts must deploy as normal units. One can easily harmonize the two rules and avoid any conflict simply by reading the "alternating units" rule to prohibit scouting in the scenarios that use it.

The people who are saying that scouts count towards the +1 for first turn totally gloss over the conflict and their position is not based on RAW -- if they followed RAW the issue would be moot because scouts shouldn't be able to scout in scenarios that deploy using the "alternating units" method.

Whichever way you play, you aren't doing it RAW -- I don't know anyone who plays it that scouts can't scout, but that is really the RAW way to do it. Really, there are just different brands of RAI out there ...

Author:  Lorddrittz [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:33 am ]
Post subject: 

I allow my opponents to deploy scouts last (after characters) and don't count them towards their unit total for deployed units.

This may be a hang up from 7th Ed. but it is the way I feel it should be played.

Author:  Silverheimdall [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:02 am ]
Post subject: 

Scouts make you lose the +1 as it is a deployment, even if its a special type.

Thats how we do it in our area. Not all scenarios have the +1 to start though.

Author:  Ataroth [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

New BRB FAQ has answered this!

Q: Do units that are deployed as Scouts count toward determining
who finished deploying their army first? (p79)
A: No.

Author:  Lorddrittz [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

LordDrittz wrote:
I allow my opponents to deploy scouts last (after characters) and don't count them towards their unit total for deployed units.

This may be a hang up from 7th Ed. but it is the way I feel it should be played.

Nice to see common sense prevailing with the latest FAQ.

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