Sorceress in second rank..vortex?
Moderator: The Dread Knights
Sorceress in second rank..vortex?
Can the sorceress in the second rank cast a vortex spell using the "shoot from two ranks" rule?
Re: Sorceress in second rank..vortex?
No. Casting is not shooting.
The vortex will necessarily hit some models in the front rank.
Someone has to suffer to make the sorceress safer.
The vortex will necessarily hit some models in the front rank.
Someone has to suffer to make the sorceress safer.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Re: Sorceress in second rank..vortex?
I am not sure what is inferred by shooting in second rank, but yes the spell can be cast but those in the front rank will suffer the spells effect.
Flyers for the win in 8th.
DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!
The Machine will grind you down.
The League of Extraordinary Druchii
DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!
The Machine will grind you down.
The League of Extraordinary Druchii
Re: Sorceress in second rank..vortex?
Geist wrote:I am not sure what is inferred by shooting in second rank, but yes the spell can be cast but those in the front rank will suffer the spells effect.
Well a magic missile such as doombolt could be cast from the second rank because it is like shooting and shooting is allowed from the second rank.
Re: Sorceress in second rank..vortex?
Let's take as an example, a unit with a Shrine. The Magic-user is pushed to 2nd rank by the Command group.
C = command group ; R = Rank & File ; M = magic-user S = Shrine
CSSSC
MSSSR
RSSSR
RSSSR
RSSSR
RRRRR
We have to apply the limitations BRB p.31.
1- Target within wizard's forward arc (save augments & hex).
2- No need for LOS (save Magic Missiles which need it).
3- Spell's range.
4- No targeting units in close combat (save augment & hex).
5- Magic missiles have a specific rule: "Accordingly, a Wizard can only cast a magic misile at a target that lies within his forward arc and to which he can trace line of sight (just as if the wizard was firing a missile weapon)."
6- Direct damage with templates cannot aim (before scatter) models in close combat, friends or foe.
7- A magical vortex "uses one of the round templates, which is placed in base contact with the caster and with its centre within the caster's front arc..."
Let's also recall rules p.39 made for shooting:
"... we also want to allow models in the second rank to shoot (they take aim over crouched or stooping fellows in the front rank). Therefore, models in the second rank can use the line of sight and forward arc of the model directly in front of them for the purposes of all shooting attacks...
Models further back than the second rank of a unit are assumed to have their line of sight blocked by models further forward, and so will not normally be able to shoot."
In the situation above, augments and hex can be cast as usual, taking the actual model of the wizard for spell range.
Magic Missiles are explicitely treated as shooting. In this situation, the forward arc and LOS would be taken from the command in front of the wizard. Range would still be taken from the wizard's model, as there is no mention about ranges in these rules. In effect, that restricts slightly the area in which the wizard can cast her spell.
In case the wizard was in the 3rd rank, RAW could be understood to prohibit a Magic Missile. However, if the wizard was casting within the 45° forward left, i.e. over nobody, I would allow it nevertheless, as RAW says "assumed to have LOS blocked", and the actual LOS would be unrestricted.
Direct Damage using templates and Magical Vortex have their specific rules about placing the template.
Here, there is no rule which would allow us to use shooting rules p.39, like for magic missiles.
There is no hint that such spells could be assimilated to shooting, and p.39 is definitively about shooting, nothing else.
We have no choice but to place the template according to the actual position of the wizard, i.e. the edge touching the wizard's model and the hole within the wizard's front arc.
Conclusion:
Dark Lore's Black Horror or Death Lore's Purple Sun of Xereus must necessarily touch both one Command group model and the Shrine, which both will face the adverse consequences.
C = command group ; R = Rank & File ; M = magic-user S = Shrine
CSSSC
MSSSR
RSSSR
RSSSR
RSSSR
RRRRR
We have to apply the limitations BRB p.31.
1- Target within wizard's forward arc (save augments & hex).
2- No need for LOS (save Magic Missiles which need it).
3- Spell's range.
4- No targeting units in close combat (save augment & hex).
5- Magic missiles have a specific rule: "Accordingly, a Wizard can only cast a magic misile at a target that lies within his forward arc and to which he can trace line of sight (just as if the wizard was firing a missile weapon)."
6- Direct damage with templates cannot aim (before scatter) models in close combat, friends or foe.
7- A magical vortex "uses one of the round templates, which is placed in base contact with the caster and with its centre within the caster's front arc..."
Let's also recall rules p.39 made for shooting:
"... we also want to allow models in the second rank to shoot (they take aim over crouched or stooping fellows in the front rank). Therefore, models in the second rank can use the line of sight and forward arc of the model directly in front of them for the purposes of all shooting attacks...
Models further back than the second rank of a unit are assumed to have their line of sight blocked by models further forward, and so will not normally be able to shoot."
In the situation above, augments and hex can be cast as usual, taking the actual model of the wizard for spell range.
Magic Missiles are explicitely treated as shooting. In this situation, the forward arc and LOS would be taken from the command in front of the wizard. Range would still be taken from the wizard's model, as there is no mention about ranges in these rules. In effect, that restricts slightly the area in which the wizard can cast her spell.
In case the wizard was in the 3rd rank, RAW could be understood to prohibit a Magic Missile. However, if the wizard was casting within the 45° forward left, i.e. over nobody, I would allow it nevertheless, as RAW says "assumed to have LOS blocked", and the actual LOS would be unrestricted.
Direct Damage using templates and Magical Vortex have their specific rules about placing the template.
Here, there is no rule which would allow us to use shooting rules p.39, like for magic missiles.
There is no hint that such spells could be assimilated to shooting, and p.39 is definitively about shooting, nothing else.
We have no choice but to place the template according to the actual position of the wizard, i.e. the edge touching the wizard's model and the hole within the wizard's front arc.
Conclusion:
Dark Lore's Black Horror or Death Lore's Purple Sun of Xereus must necessarily touch both one Command group model and the Shrine, which both will face the adverse consequences.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
-
Heartsbane
- Executioner
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:58 pm
- Location: Cambridge, UK
Re: Sorceress in second rank..vortex?
Agree with Calisson, except that it's possible to miss the shrine if you position the template touching the front corner of the sorceress and as far away from the shrine as it can go whilst keeping the centre of the template in her forward arc.
I had a game where my vampire opponent cast a wind of death from a necromancer in the second rank. As that spell deals hits to any unit touched (and it was a deeply ranked unit of grave guard) he only made that mistake once!
I had a game where my vampire opponent cast a wind of death from a necromancer in the second rank. As that spell deals hits to any unit touched (and it was a deeply ranked unit of grave guard) he only made that mistake once!
My dark elf PLOG: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=71097
My dwarf alter-ego's PLOG: http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/topic/32404-the-throng-of-thane-morgran-updated-12th-march-2012/
My dwarf alter-ego's PLOG: http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/topic/32404-the-throng-of-thane-morgran-updated-12th-march-2012/
Re: Sorceress in second rank..vortex?
Heartsbane wrote:Agree with Calisson, except that it's possible to miss the shrine if you position the template touching the front corner of the sorceress and as far away from the shrine as it can go whilst keeping the centre of the template in her forward arc.
I had a game where my vampire opponent cast a wind of death from a necromancer in the second rank. As that spell deals hits to any unit touched (and it was a deeply ranked unit of grave guard) he only made that mistake once!
I thought you could not start a vortex where it touches your own models as opposed to it drifting over?