ASF question

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Brennan
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ASF question

Post by Brennan »

Hi all,
Sorry if this has been covered already.. Played a guy today and he says that a unit with asf and great weps (eg execs) still get rerolls to hit if they have higher initiative. I wondered about this because great weps give asl, cancelling asf.

Is this correct?

Im sure one you experienced druchii will have the answer!

Thanks
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Marchosias
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Re: ASF question

Post by Marchosias »

No rerolls.

ASF and ASL indeed "cancel out and neither applies". This is the formulation from the Always strikes last entry in the rulebook. Getting rerolls is part of the Always strikes first rule which is not applied.

You could get rerolls through other means, though. Hatred, for example.
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Thraundil
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Re: ASF question

Post by Thraundil »

Yeah, that guy cheated you. It is very clear in the written rules. If a model has ASF and ASL, it effectively behaves as if having neither rule, thus simply striking at initiative without the benefit of ASF in any way. Call him out on it! Trying to interpret the rules in the way you describe is either very ignorant of written rules, or blatant cheating - both of which is bull. There is no way in which a model with ASL can ever benefit from rerolls to hit via ASF.
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Daeron
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Re: ASF question

Post by Daeron »

Agreed. You don't get rerolls on the hit roll from ASF if you have ASL. Unless some other source grants rerolls.

Thraundil wrote:Call him out on it! Trying to interpret the rules in the way you describe is either very ignorant of written rules, or blatant cheating - both of which is bull.


Alright, but... I'd refrain from using words like cheating or "very ignorant". Ignorance is an entirely subjective judgement which is easy to make from a distance. The things I could call people ignorant off!
I've seen people succeed in building a case for this (mis)interpretation of the rules... with a dedication to their self-righteousness that would make the most devoted Paladin look like an agnost. Maybe the opponent has read such an argument on some forum or blog and honestly believed that the source was right.

Just point out the right ruling. That's usually enough.
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Thetosh
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Re: ASF question

Post by Thetosh »

It should be noted that in the case of Executioners if they were granted a second ASF from another source (giving them ASF, ASL, ASF) then they would again strike first with re-rolls
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Re: ASF question

Post by Vulcan »

Actually, no. Neither ASF nor ASL stack.
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Dalamar
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Re: ASF question

Post by Dalamar »

Thetosh wrote:It should be noted that in the case of Executioners if they were granted a second ASF from another source (giving them ASF, ASL, ASF) then they would again strike first with re-rolls


No, they would not. No special rule stacks with itself unless specifically stated (Extra Attacks special rule is one of those I believe, allowing to stack frenzy with two hand weapons for example)
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Thetosh
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Re: ASF question

Post by Thetosh »

It's not stacking. The ASL cancels out an Execs ASF, they effectively have neither rule. They are then granted ASF from another source (like a spell) giving them a single instance of ASF :)
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Re: ASF question

Post by Askador »

Daeron wrote:Agreed. You don't get rerolls on the hit roll from ASF if you have ASL. Unless some other source grants rerolls.

Thraundil wrote:Call him out on it! Trying to interpret the rules in the way you describe is either very ignorant of written rules, or blatant cheating - both of which is bull.


Alright, but... I'd refrain from using words like cheating or "very ignorant". Ignorance is an entirely subjective judgement which is easy to make from a distance. The things I could call people ignorant off!
I've seen people succeed in building a case for this (mis)interpretation of the rules... with a dedication to their self-righteousness that would make the most devoted Paladin look like an agnost. Maybe the opponent has read such an argument on some forum or blog and honestly believed that the source was right.

Just point out the right ruling. That's usually enough.


Yeah i know how that feels. I was playing my Pegasus Charakters with Vanguard for a couple of games because i thought its Flying Cav. but its not.. its Mostrous Cav. I didnt do that to cheat someone.
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Daeron
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Re: ASF question

Post by Daeron »

Thetosh wrote:It's not stacking. The ASL cancels out an Execs ASF, they effectively have neither rule. They are then granted ASF from another source (like a spell) giving them a single instance of ASF :)


The rules persist, their effects are cancelled. Quoting the rule "their effects are cancelled and neither applies" -> The rules themselves have not disappeared.

It's been subject of many long debates, so I'll try to keep it to a few pointers:
- Imagine a Dreadlord with ASF gets ASL from a spell, and then the ASL disappears. Does he have ASF again? How could this be if the rule "was removed and he effectively has neither rule"? -> The rule never disappeared, only the effect did, as the special rules state.
- If you consider that ASF+ASL and then adding ASF yields ASF, then you are implying that there is an explicit order in which to proces special rules. There is no mention, at any point in the book, that an order between these rules is ever relevant. What prevents you from processing both ASF first? And then end with ASL? The conflict that rises here finds its root at trying to define an order in which to process the special rules when they explicitly state that they apply at the same time.
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Vulcan
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Re: ASF question

Post by Vulcan »

Thetosh wrote:It's not stacking. The ASL cancels out an Execs ASF, they effectively have neither rule. They are then granted ASF from another source (like a spell) giving them a single instance of ASF :)


The rules are CANCELED, not REMOVED. Both rules still exist on the model even if neither are in effect. And since you can't stack special rules, no.

On the up side, Executioners laugh at ASL hexes.
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