Large Target Behind Hill

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SemprusOfClarGarond
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Large Target Behind Hill

Post by SemprusOfClarGarond »

My Kharibdyss was behind a hill. Roughly 30% of his body was showing so his heads and a good portion of its necks were visible to some Sisters of Avalorn who were on flat ground about 20 inches away.

They could see me clearly but over 50% of my body was obscured by the hill and the rules state that if 50% is covered then cover applies. However, it also says that obstacles do not provide cover to large targets. So the question really is: are hills obstacles?

Do I receive soft, or hard cover or none at all since I am a large target?
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Red... »

I think this answers the question:

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/ ... -rule.html

(in summary - no, see p122 of your rulebook)

But the bigger issue would be whether or not hills provide cover at all... it could be argued that they do not, as they represent rolling ground rather than a blocking feature such as a forest or a building.
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Thraundil »

Large targets behind hills are generally not very well defined in the rule book, since BRB operates with true line of sight, which takes into account model size and terrain size. In other words, if you somehow use a hill that is, physically, much larger, your K-beast would be completely out of vision of the enemy sisters. But in true line of sight, if the model can see, they can shoot. And large targets never get cover. I recommend that games always start with an agreement on these small things, as it can really ruin a good game if one player assumes he can shoot and the other assumes there is full cover.

Simple line of sight is a reasonably great system in this regard. In it, a hill is 'infinitely tall' across its entire covered area, and blocks line of sight. So if your K-beasts "base" is visible to the shooters, they can shoot, but since you are obscured you get hard cover, because the hill is not an obstacle but a blocker. Because no archer can shoot at the darned tentacle of a big monster hiding behind a hill, large target or not :P
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by SemprusOfClarGarond »

So what you're saying is that since true line of sight and not simple line of sight is used then if the beast is visible at all, then it can be shot and does NOT receive a cover save correct?
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Thraundil »

SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:So what you're saying is that since true line of sight and not simple line of sight is used then if the beast is visible at all, then it can be shot and does NOT receive a cover save correct?


Yeah. Nothing can give a large target cover save unless the entire model is completely hidden, under a true line of sight perspective. Even if theres a damned hole in the building its hiding behind, it can technically be shot at without modifiers. At least this is a common interpretation, as the cover rules are not very well described at all in the rulebook...
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Kurze »

We just use the 40k rules for vehicles as a guide. Even big monsters can appreciate cover.
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Thraundil wrote:Yeah. Nothing can give a large target cover save unless the entire model is completely hidden, under a true line of sight perspective. Even if theres a damned hole in the building its hiding behind, it can technically be shot at without modifiers. At least this is a common interpretation, as the cover rules are not very well described at all in the rulebook...


This is not correct.

Large Target rules on page 72 state:

"Large Targets cannot claim cover modifiers for obstacles (see page 122 for more details)."

Obstacles are a specific category of terrain--the term does not encompass all terrain. On page 122, the category "Obstacles" is defined as follows:

"This category covers all long and narrow terrain types, such as fences, walls and hedges."

As a result, while Large Targets may not be able to claim cover modifiers from "Obstacles," per the Cover rules on page 41, they certainly can claim modifiers from other types of Terrain--including Hills, Mystical Monuments, Buildings, and Arcane Architecture--so long as the terrain in question hides a sufficient portion of the model. This is also illustrated by the picture example on page 41, in which a giant gets a the benefit of Hard Cover for being over 50% obscured by a building.

Also note that the "Forests and Shooting" rules on page 119 regarding soft cover apply generally and there is no exception for Large Targets.
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Thraundil »

Dyvim tvar wrote:
Thraundil wrote:Yeah. Nothing can give a large target cover save unless the entire model is completely hidden, under a true line of sight perspective. Even if theres a damned hole in the building its hiding behind, it can technically be shot at without modifiers. At least this is a common interpretation, as the cover rules are not very well described at all in the rulebook...


This is not correct.

Large Target rules on page 72 state:

"Large Targets cannot claim cover modifiers for obstacles (see page 122 for more details)."

Obstacles are a specific category of terrain--the term does not encompass all terrain. On page 122, the category "Obstacles" is defined as follows:

"This category covers all long and narrow terrain types, such as fences, walls and hedges."

As a result, while Large Targets may not be able to claim cover modifiers from "Obstacles," per the Cover rules on page 41, they certainly can claim modifiers from other types of Terrain--including Hills, Mystical Monuments, Buildings, and Arcane Architecture--so long as the terrain in question hides a sufficient portion of the model. This is also illustrated by the picture example on page 41, in which a giant gets a the benefit of Hard Cover for being over 50% obscured by a building.

Also note that the "Forests and Shooting" rules on page 119 regarding soft cover apply generally and there is no exception for Large Targets.


Aight neat! Not used to playing with the rulebook LoS rules at all, so I must've missed this. Thanks for clearing it out :)
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by SemprusOfClarGarond »

Why would a hydra be able to gain cover from a hill but not a stone wall that covers. 75% of its body? Why would a large target gain cover from a hill when no one else does? It says nothing about that anywhere in the book. Even things that normally grant other units hard or soft cover like walls give nothing to large targets so why would a hill be the one thing that does?
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Dyvim tvar »

SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:Why would a hydra be able to gain cover from a hill but not a stone wall that covers. 75% of its body?


Because the rules on pages 72 and 122 say so. Also, I doubt you'll find any walls tall enough to cover 75% of a hydra's body, and if you did I would probably put them in the "Building" category myself.

SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:Why would a large target gain cover from a hill when no one else does?


Where do you get the idea that hills never provide cover? Page 41 states:

"If the majority of the models in the target unit (or, when firing against a single model, more than half the model) is obscured from the shooting model's view by other models (friend or enemy) or by terrain then an additional To Hit modifier is applied."

This rule does not restrict the type of terrain that can provide cover, and Hills are a type of terrain, so they certainly can provide cover if they obscure enough of the target.

SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:It says nothing about that anywhere in the book.


I just quoted the relevant language.

SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:Even things that normally grant other units hard or soft cover like walls give nothing to large targets ...


Again, not true. "Obstacles" are the only type of terrain that cannot (potentially if large enough) give cover to Large Targets.

SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:... so why would a hill be the one thing that does?


Again, Hills are not "the one thing that does [give cover]"--Large Targets can also receive cover from Buildings, Mystical Monuments, and Arcane Architecture. And again, please read the rules and examples on page 41, including the example in which a Giant is getting Hard Cover from a Building.
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by SemprusOfClarGarond »

Just because a large target CANT get cover bonus from obstacles does not automatically mean by default it can get cover from hills and be the one and ONLY unit type in war hammer fantasy that is allowed cover from hills but is not allowed cover from more logical things like stone walls... Find me one example from the book where it specifically says they can get cover from hills. It very clearly says they can't get it from obstacles but I see nothing saying they can from hills.

My take on it is that true LOS applies. If the hill blocks LoS then it can't be hit but it never benefits from cover.

Show me where it says that hills grant it cover and tell me where it specifies if that's hard or soft cover specifically...
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Vulcan »

When did logic ever apply to WFB rules?
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Dyvim tvar »

@Semprus -- I already answered your question. The syllogism is simple:

Per page 41, terrain can provide cover if it obscures >50% of a unit/model

Hills are a type of terrain (I am no longer at home and cannot provide a page cite but they are a specific terrain category in the rulebook).

Therefore, Hills that obscure >50% of a model/unit provide cover.

If you think my logic is faulty, please point out the error.
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by SemprusOfClarGarond »

Alright then, let's use your logic. You say that a large target does receive a cover bonus if 50% of the model is covered. Ok so page 41 says a To Hit modifier is then applied- either a soft or hard cover is applied.

So which is it then? Soft or hard.

Page 41 says:

Soft Cover- If the majority of the unit is obscured by hedges, fences, wagons or other "soft" terrain.

Hard Cover- If the marjoity of the unit is obscured by "hard" terrain such as stone walls, boulders, buildings and suchlike.

It is certainly not a soft cover like a barracde or some barrels or something and it is certainly not a hard cover like a boulder. Hills count as open terrain. All the other examples of soft cover would be dangerous terrain checks for cavalry and all the examples of hard cover are impassable. A hill is neither dangerous terrain nor impassable thus the large target should not be able to a cover save from it. Now blocking true LoS is another issue. If the hill is tall enough to block LoS then clearly the large target cannot be shot but if it can be seen, it absolutely does not receive hard cover from a hill.

Red sums it up quite well "But the bigger issue would be whether or not hills provide cover at all... it could be argued that they do not, as they represent rolling ground rather than a blocking feature such as a forest or a building."
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

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SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:Alright then, let's use your logic. You say that a large target does receive a cover bonus if 50% of the model is covered. Ok so page 41 says a To Hit modifier is then applied- either a soft or hard cover is applied.

So which is it then? Soft or hard.

Page 41 says:

Soft Cover- If the majority of the unit is obscured by hedges, fences, wagons or other "soft" terrain.

Hard Cover- If the marjoity of the unit is obscured by "hard" terrain such as stone walls, boulders, buildings and suchlike.

It is certainly not a soft cover like a barracde or some barrels or something and it is certainly not a hard cover like a boulder. Hills count as open terrain. All the other examples of soft cover would be dangerous terrain checks for cavalry and all the examples of hard cover are impassable. A hill is neither dangerous terrain nor impassable thus the large target should not be able to a cover save from it. Now blocking true LoS is another issue. If the hill is tall enough to block LoS then clearly the large target cannot be shot but if it can be seen, it absolutely does not receive hard cover from a hill.

Red sums it up quite well "But the bigger issue would be whether or not hills provide cover at all... it could be argued that they do not, as they represent rolling ground rather than a blocking feature such as a forest or a building."


It is fairly simple, if something obscures a unit 50% or more it provides cover, though in the case of obstacles it has an exeption to the rule in regards to large targets. But since a hill is not classified as an obstacle those rules do not come into play, and we continue on with regular cover rules.

If the hill obscures 50% or more of the unit it provides cover, closest thing you get to in similar terrain would be boulders since it is a piece of solid cover.

Its not really more complicated then that Semprus, and in the case of not being seen with TLoS it is close to impossible to hide a large model, as long as you see parts of a model viable for targetting (head, torso and legs pretty much) it is a viable target even if you only see a miniscule part of its foot or its snout. 50% obscured or 99% obscured doesn't really matter.

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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by SemprusOfClarGarond »

You still haven't answered my qustion.

Is it hard or soft cover?
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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Liquidedust »

SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:You still haven't answered my qustion.

Is it hard or soft cover?


Hard, it is a solid piece of terrain. You just extrapolate from what else is hard/soft cover and then apply what is closest as per the cover rules.

A hill is a solid piece of terrain and therefore falls under hard cover.

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Re: Large Target Behind Hill

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Liquidedust wrote:
SemprusOfClarGarond wrote:You still haven't answered my qustion.

Is it hard or soft cover?


Hard, it is a solid piece of terrain. You just extrapolate from what else is hard/soft cover and then apply what is closest as per the cover rules.

A hill is a solid piece of terrain and therefore falls under hard cover.


This.

The lists on page 41 of what falls into the "hard" and "soft" are (unfortunately) non-exclusive sets of examples. Soft cover is given by "hedges, fences, wagons, or other 'soft' terrain." Hard cover is given by "stone walls, boulders, buildings and suchlike."

Since the lists are non-exclusive, for things that are not explicitly listed, we have to make judgment calls--are they more like the the things in the "soft" list or the "hard" list? By nature, Hills are not soft and squishy, so I am going with hard cover. The statement that Hills are "certainly not a hard cover like a boulder" is at odds with common experience and reality--an earthen berm can absorb a cannonball or other shot as well or better than a boulder. And there is no stated relationship in the rules between status as hard/soft cover and impassable/difficult terrain.

The rules are quite clear that (1) terrain (2) obscuring >50% of a model or unit (3) provides cover. Hills are (1) terrain, (2) they can obscure >50% of a model or unit, and so (3) they can provide cover. The fact that we have to make this judgment call as to which kind of cover they provide is not a basis to claim that they do not provide cover at all.
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